Site Menu:
This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below: |
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Dressage Suitability » |
Discussion on Is there a way to find out preferences of dressage judges? | |
Author | Message |
Member: judyhens |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 25, 2010 - 11:49 am: We need to get several Andalusians to a dressage show to (hopefully) get them qualified for nationals. We have competed in open shows and typically don't encounter a significant bias against the non-warmblood. However, we have not gone to a show this year and time is now short. :-)A couple of years ago we encountered one judge who gave the 4 Andalusians competing (ours and 3 others), QHs, and other non-warmblood breeds, scores in the 40s and 50s....with warmblood scores pretty consistently in the 60s. A different judge the next day gave the same horses scores in the upper 50's and 60's. In our case, a 63+ for a ride that was not quite as clean as the previous day's ride....but consistent with her scoring of warmbloods. We are trying to choose one of three shows between now and the nationals. And would like to avoid a judge with a marked preference for the warmblood. Does anyone have an idea about how to find out information on a specific judge's preferences? Judging of non-warmbloods? Since we haven't competed in open shows (except for one young horse in one show) for over a year, I guess I don't know if this is any longer an issue at all. Would welcome any feedback! Judy 0 0 \_/ |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 25, 2010 - 4:15 pm: If you can find this info out, you should share it! It isn't just in dressage you have this problem. We bred and showed Arabians for many years and ran into this especially in dressage and reining classes. Even in hunter or western classes some judges don't know how some breeds should carry their heads and move. But we also ran into prejudice with judges within the breed classes.Some judges are very fair regardless of breed and discipline you are showing in, and some are prejudiced. When we were doing a lot of showing I kept an index card on each judge we showed under with notes on who won, score cards, breed and color of the winners, and our placings. I had friends who did this also and we compaired notes. Amazingly, in halter classes, we found one judge that had NEVER placed a gray horse, even when one in one of her classes was a National Champion and had beaten several of the other horses in the class! Good luck! |
Member: judyhens |
Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 11:58 am: Thanks Sara! Misery does love company. We were at a Peruvian show once where the judge didn't pick grey horses...Didn't even place the past high point stallion and the grey Peruvian on the cover of all the breed materials. We were thinking about putting together a whole class of greys! :-) He would probably just ask for a stick horse or something else he could place! This is just too crazy!I think I figured it out: I searched the judges' names, the word "andalusian", and "results". This pulled up USDF show results. I then looked at scores by breed. I found several judges who are giving scores every bit as high to Andalusians, QH, Arabians, etc., as to warmbloods. This has helped in the decision making process. We too keep all our score sheets. There are some judges it just doesn't make sense to show under! :-) Good luck with your caballos and thanks for your input! Judy |
Member: nancynf |
Posted on Friday, Aug 13, 2010 - 12:17 pm: I am a retired dressage judge, and I feel called upon to make a few comments on what is a really a very good question. Because of the rapid development of dressage as both a science and an art in the United States, it has, in some respects gone off in all directions. I have watched with amazement as it spread across the country during my own lifetime from an esoteric form of horsemanship practiced in Europe and by the military at the few cavalry training centers still around in the second world war, to a few postwar riding centers that featured serious instruction in equitation, basic dressage and jumping. Almost all of these had programs imported from Europe and European instructors or ex-military officers doing the teaching, As students graduated from these programs there grew a demand for further education, more instructors, more judges, more opportunities to study abroad and more highly trained riding horses. Some of the demand came from the variety of riding activities which were already available to a small and usually wealthy section of the population—hunting, horse showing, endurance riding, polo, etc. These used the horses which were available in the United States a wide variety of breeds which ranged from Arabians, Morgans and Saddlebreds to retired Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds from the racetracks, Quarter horses, Appaloosas and western cow horses crossed with mustangs from the west.All of these varieties, and even more now, often receive at least some basic dressage training, because it has proven to benefit almost every horse in his (or her) physical and mental ability to perform whatever tasks his rider asks of him. There are, however, some differences which have affected the understanding of dressage judging by the general public. First, not every horse is capable of achieving satisfactory scores at all levels, or even some of the lower levels. Perhaps he is not very athletic and no matter how kind, intelligent, and well ridden, simply cannot perform a given movement as well as another in competition. Perhaps his breed has been developed with conformation suitable to jumping, endurance, cutting cattle or drawing a carriage, but not for the quality of his gaits. Perhaps he is handicapped, poorly coordinated, distractible, or rebellious. Although any horse may improve with training, not all are suitable for competitive dressage. Thus the field has essentially divided itself into shows which underline basic training, from walk-trot tests through Fourth Level, and competitive Dressage shows which encourage upper level achievement, as in the international levels of Prix St George, Intermediare and Grand Prix. These latter tests are made for horses who are naturally endowed athletes, and many, like the various European Warmbloods, have been bred for the quality and regularity of their gaits, their natural balance, and even temperament (one hopes!). Some of comments I've read here comment on what appears to be favoritism by judges for particular breeds, colors and so forth and prejudices against others, and I think it's a valid perception, but not always for the reasons you may think. A newly licensed judge may only give marks from 4 to 6 until he or she has judged enough shows to be a little more confident away from their mentors! Judges today, if they are licensed, have to undergo training and testing which for a learner judge may take years and hundreds of miles of travel not to mention hundreds of dollars for transportation, housing, clinic fees and courses. They must ride satisfactorily at the level they are judging, and their education increases with each license they seek to obtain. They are required to submit recommendations by a number of licensed judges who are familiar with their judging. Most judges, from my experience, make it their goal to be fair and consistent to each horse and rider combination. They are taught to judge on an absolute scale, not a comparative scale, so that a judge might look at an entry and when the rider comes down the center line say to himself, "Is the horse moving well forward for this level? Is he straight? Is he resisting the rider's aids? Is the halt straight? Is it still and well maintained? Is he bent correctly at C? Is the rhythm consistent?" And then decide what part of the movement could be better, evaluate the whole movement, ascribe it a score and justify his observations---and that's just for one movement! I think often the entrant may come to a show and be unaware that his Andalusian, who has a natural ability to move in a collected frame, is being judged by lady who is looking for a Training Level frame in a novice horse, which requires that the horse move confidently forward in a long, low frame. She may not have much if any experience with Andalusians and might even penalize him for a higher head carriage than she's used to seeing. Ideally, judges do learn what constitutes a "seven" for a short coupled Arab performing a ten meter circle and that of a Thoroughbred, but one can see why a judge very familiar with warmbloods might mark a quarterhorse down for a"lazy trot" or for being short strided. I've seen some judges complain about "impure gaits" in a saddle bred because she is inadvertently looking for some signs of the horse being gaited. Judges are sometimes opinionated by what part of a movement is the most important, Should the canter be penalized more for an incorrect lead in a training level test or for an explosive or late transition? Was it the horse's error or the rider's? (That can make a big difference in the collective marks). So the answer, I think, is no, you can't predict how the judge will score unless you have shown under her (or him) a number of times and have some feeling for how she feels about your performance. Judges can be very useful in helping you evaluate your horse's training and your own skills. Schooling shows are very useful, and many judges will answer questions or make comments after you have ridden. And if you bother to read the scores by the five judges who officiate at international shows, you would be amazed at how the scores of each judge for each horse for dozens of movements may vary by only 2 or 3 points from each other even though they judge from different vantage points! Sorry to be so long-winded! Nancy Feldman |
Member: canderso |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 14, 2010 - 8:28 am: What a fantastic post Nancy - thank-you!Judy, remember that while your horses' conformation and natural tendency to collect may work against them at lower levels, it works for them at higher levels... also notice that many of those horses that place first at training and first levels never proceed to 2nd or 3rd level. So maybe you won't get the ribbon colours you want at the training, first or second level... but if you stick with it, by third level things will move into your favour. I have heard some andalusian owners don't bother competing their horses below 3rd level for this very reason. |