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Discussion on Unruly and nipping 18mo old | |
Author | Message |
New Member: chase99 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2011 - 2:14 pm: Hi Folks…I’m hoping for some advice here! I will try not to be too long winded but there’s a lot to describe. I have a 18 month old Paso Fino gelding. I have only had him about 2 ½ months, and he was raised at a home with 3 other horses. His main issues are being very mouthy, with fairly frequent attempts (and occasional successes) at biting. I am constantly glaring at him, and saying AAH AAH while holding up my hand, and when he persists I bop him on the snoot, or if I have a crop have smacked him in the chest quite hard. If I’m leading him he’s constantly trying to get to my hand, and when I take him out especially at first he’s quite excited, trying to pass me and nip etc. I will then make him back up or yield his hind qtrs. and switch sides. He can be a handful spooking, and pawing and occasionally trying to rear. I am working the Parrelli games about once a week, ( I work then its dark). I am walking him one or two other times just working on leading and getting used to cars, dogs scary objects on the road etc. Yesterday when trying to get him out to the end of the rope to attempt some slow circles he would ignore me then as I increased the pressure on his bubble he would bolt out, buck, rear (once too close for comfort) and way over-react. One other side fact is he seems obsessed with food, but is well fed, maybe a little too thick. He wants to graze at every patch or grass, and part of the problem may be that the ring I’ve worked him in is has grass patches he wants and its frustrating him when I’m trying to play the games. Lately he’s getting harder to halter, grabbing everything. When I was in his paddock later bringing hay he got over me in my bubble and I tried to back him (he wasn’t wearing halter) he half reared and it wasn’t good. I feel like my body language is good, I am quiet, but firm. There are of course time when he can be so sweet, usually after the outing or while chewing something (!) . So what do you think and suggest? Is it his age, do I just be persistent, maybe back off of some of the games at this time, should I come down harder and smack him more, could he be getting too much rich food…help!?! |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2011 - 4:05 pm: Sounds like a handful!My youngest Arab was very playful and mouthy when he came to me at a bit over 2 years of age. He delighted in nipping and running away. I had read John Lyons suggestion about rubbing the face of a young horse who wants to bite and that worked really well with my boy. When you sense that they are wanting to nip just start rubbing and keep it up quite a while until they have had enough. I think that sometimes they do this just for fun or attention. I've never had one rear or bolt close by me. Good luck and be careful! |
New Member: chase99 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2011 - 8:11 pm: Hi Vicki! I had read that about rubbing the nose and just started trying it, good to know it really worked for someone. I think a lot of it is seeking play/contact, so last time I tried to halter him I just let him have the halter and rope until he got a little bored with them and then slid it on. Previously had tried bitter spray (sold to deter dogs from chewing)-no help. I have never seen any info on the life stages of young horses...I know my dogs outgrew a lot of things. Also thanks for the caution, I hope the rowdiness is just pent-up energy (that's why I was hoping to get him moving a little) but realizing the danger is what motivated me to seek advice. |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 27, 2011 - 11:19 pm: Hi Connie, I have a very mouthy 11 year old. I have had him since he was a 4 month old, and he is my spoiled rotten baby. Usually these guys are very smart and need things to do. I train dogs so did not know what to do with a horse, and did some dog things that helped. I had a giant nylabone with nubs on it. I would stand around and hang out with him, while he "teethed" on his nubby bone. He still loves it when i get it out. I also got him a Jolly Ball. He put the hard rubber handle in his mouth and played with it like a dog. I also got him a huge chunk of carpet, we litterly played tug of war. I was talking to a customer one day in the paddock, he came up behind me, unbeknownst to me, and DrOpped this chunk of carpet on my head, encouraging me to play. He definately grew out of it as he aged, but engaging him was so much more fun than constantly correcting him. I would think you have a very smart boy on your hands. Levi has been taught to shake, bow, even come to heel like a dog. Have fun with him, and check out clicker training for horses. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2011 - 7:38 am: Welcome Connie,It sounds like your correction methods are all over the map. Try to pick one that is recommended by a professional and stick with it. If you are not getting the response you hoped for, reevaluate your technique and remember these things take time and consistency. I strongly recommend you do not "bop the nose" this will certainly lead to head shyness. Our recommendations can be found at HorseAdvice.com » Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses but whatever method you choose you need to evaluate response. DrO |
New Member: chase99 |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2011 - 9:20 am: Hi Susan! Thank-you for your great response. I too have much more experience training dogs,and did get him a jolly ball which he loves and picks up and swings around, and even he teases with our pygmy goat with it! I also have handed him a stick to play with (just because it was handy)to give him something besides me to mouth. And we've played with a towel too. I agree that I think he is quite smart...and have used a hanging treat ball to keep him busy so that I could pick his feet (otherwise he turned and mouth my behind or hopped around when I worked with his rear feet). I think its like kids or pups in that redirecting him is better than constantly confronting. I have tried a clicker with one dog, but I could never seem to be very coordinated, with it. But I have since seen them with a stretchy wrist strap that looks handy. I have been using a higher toned "good boooy!" praise consistently, and have "primed" that (like you would a clicker). But I maybe I should give the clicker another try; I can see that it is distinctly different than a voice, its just that my voice is always with me!Greetings Dr. Oglesby! Thanks for your insight. I can see that I have used a lot of different methods, possibly because I have read of so many different ones, the one about using the crop on the chest or foreleg thigh I think (?) was in that article. Also I can't emphasize enough how constant it is, and if I am carrying a crop he grabs it, and its hard to have the crop ready to use when I'm trying to do many of the other functions of handling him. I have bopped him in the nose, don't like it but it was reactive on my part when he actually bit hard. I do think (this was from from "old school" dog training) that there is something to be said for reprimanding the "offending" body part...i.e. the mouth bit, the mouth got bopped, if the leg kicks strike it. But it occurs to me that because I was so conscious of not wanting to strike his face that it was little more than a firm tap, so it may have constituted "horse-play" to him. I have two fairly well trained German Shepherds,and know the need for consistency (they don't cut any slack). I had a saying during my especially challenging rescue GSD that "its a process!" I guess I'm torn, some trainers recommend making them move their feet, as in yielding hind qtrs. or backing,thus gaining the Alpha position. Others recommend immediate 3 seconds of heavy reprimand, I did both yesterday (my heavy reprimand was a sharp hard strike on his chest with the crop while holding his head tight so he couldn't rear and growl/yelling while glaring right close to his eye--he knew I wasn't pleased!) Then just switched back to my friendly self and we kept walking. I used that reprimand for bites (twice) and yielded the hiney and backed him when he persisted in trying to pass or crowd. He did settle down a whole lot, though I'm ready start all over again next time. I'm off this week and the weather is great so I hope to handle him a lot daily. Do you think these methods should be edited/revised, and do you have top favorites? |
Member: syaler |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2011 - 9:47 am: Hi Connie, I am a long time dog trainer who uses primarily positive reinforcement training and shelter manager of a donkey and mule rescue who uses positive reinforcement with the all of the animals who come into the rescue. In my experience, especially when working with a young animal gaining trust and respect are the most important issues. I think by using physical punishment you take away a lot of the trust. I believe the animals see us as unpredictable when we get emotional and resort to physical punishment. A time out, your time away from the animal, usually works well. Remember that in the animal world, leaders initiate, subordinates react...every time we "react" we are proving ourselves to be the subordinate member of the team. Your horse is just a baby and he is trying out behaviors to see what will work. If you can walk away from the behaviors you don't like and reward the ones you do, I think you will make a lot of progress. I don't use a clicker, I just make a "click" sound with my tongue. As long as you are consistent it doesnt matter what you use. Good Luck and Have Fun! |
New Member: chase99 |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 29, 2011 - 10:57 pm: Hello Ann, this discussion is so interesting, and reminds me a lot of working with my shepherd dogs.They are very smart, and learn best with rewards, but when they chose not to listen, opted to take matters into their own paws, I had to step up my assertiveness level. I have come to believe that they and probably my young gelding feel so much more secure when they know I'm in charge and their protector. That means that I protect each dog from abuse from another or have even stepped between them and charging local dogs I really dislike physical punishment. But, the problem with walking off when I am getting mouthed, bitten or crowded is that I feel like it puts me in the subordinate position. I have been trying to distract him from the behavior with toys, or prevent trouble (when I anticipate it coming) with my verbal "AAH AAH" warning when he starts to nibble. But if he pushes on top of me or takes a real shot at a sneaky bite and I feel threatened, don't you think I need to back him down some? I am 51, and have raised kids that turned out well and fairly mindful dogs--all who trust and love me despite the fact that at times I had to "lay down the law" (as Dad would say!). I do believe that in nature the parents of higher species reprimand and discipline (usually physically), and the offspring "get it", as long as the action was quick and fair and then everything goes back to normal. I just think that there should be a negative consequence for doing something that shouldn't be done. I think of it like sticking one's hand in fire, it hurt, so you don't do that again. Pain is a messenger of nature, and although I want to avoid it, if that's the clearest most concise way a quick sting of a crop may be the least ambivalent way to convey the message. With a creature as large as a horse, my options are limited. I have come down very scary on each of my 3 dogs (that I singlehandedly walk off leash almost daily) at least once for not coming when called. I didn't strike them, but chased them and laid them down (can't lay the horse down) and did put fear in them for disobeying. It doesn't take but once, maybe twice to make them know that a certain tone of voice is to be obeyed. My justification is that it could save their lives. We actually encountered a bear one evening, my male shepherd was toying with it but when he heard my serious tone he came back. He has also alerts me to other hikers, and it scares them so I am glad I have a strong recall. But if it were just up to getting a treat, they wouldn't always come. I know this from trial and error. All the rest of the time the dogs are goofy happy and engaging. Like I'd tell my kids "someone has to be the parent, and its not gonna be you!" I had another walk with Ari (my horsey) today,and he did fairly well, other than getting a bit resistant to leading at some point in the woods (he danced around, threw his head and wouldn't move forward). I'm not sure why, but I allowed that he may have been spooking so I just kept coaxing and would stop and just chill with him until we got out of that area. After letting him graze a bit in a clearing(he eats all around my feet) we led off and then I told him let's explore over here and I wandered of the trail playfully looking behind and giving him a long length of rope and he seemed to catch the spirit of it and step through the undergrowth and over logs etc. I know that it probably sounds like a lot of negative interaction with him because that is the part that I struggle with the most and have come to you all for insight on. But I am trying to make our outings enjoyable for him. I know he is just a (big) baby, and we stop all the time and I encourage him to approach scary things like trash cans, and puddles etc. I got him to finally cross a creek (I didn't want to pressure him too much) with of all things a peppermint treat...all that posturing about not crossing faded and he stepped right over when I bribed him with the treat! That said, he is still learning to trust me and his environment,so I aim to try to settle him down rather than escalate when he gets "wild and woolly and full of fleas". I agree with you that emotional doesn't fit in the picture so if and when I feel actual anger or frustration rising I stop, breathe a few deep ones (a "time-out" like you suggested!),usually standing close to him hoping that he will also tune into that calming signal. Dogs yawn (a calming signal) and I have noticed him do it at times and wonder if horses also do it to calm. Oh, the tongue click would be perfect except that I have always used that (even on my dogs) as a signal to move along. One reason I always wanted to start a horse is because I believe it could be done with kindness. But this far into it I am facing that it can't be only sweet love, that there must be a little tougher love too. It amounts to structure though if you think about it, its putting up barriers and boundaries to keep things from flying about all crazy. Sorry for rambling on so, I do love this discussion! |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 3:15 pm: Hi Connie, I am totally on the same page as you are. I have been training dogs for over 30 years now, and have been exposed to all of the "fad" training ideas, as well as the cruel training concepts. I take my lead from the animals. I use lots of positive reinforcement to teach the dog/horse what it is I want them to do, however, if we have a behavior that I do not want them to repeat, then it needs to not be a pleasant experience to them. I do not beat/smack/hit my animals, but if they offer an aggressive response to me, they certainly will wish they had not done that. I explain to my customers that dogs do not hit each other (except for boxers) therefore they have no reference for that, but I do believe in submissive posturing to get my message across. After the message is over, we are back to best buddies. It is their behavior that was unacceptable, not them. The same is true with horses, quick response, back to the loving!I can see where removing yourself from the herd/pack can be a useful response in some case, (dog jumping on you, is a good example) but in biting, nipping, dominant behaviors, I think that just shows the aggressor that they won, if I walk away, just as a dominant dog/horse will expect the subordinate to do, I have given them the wrong message, because they need me to be the pack/herd leader, it may save thier life someday! When Levi has nipped at me, as he does sometimes when he is frustrated because he does not want to do what I want him to do, I have pinched his lovely little nose, or backed into him, kicking backwards into him backing him away. Only after he has stopped backing up, will I ask him to walk back into my space, put his head down and then a pet. I have had discussions with other dog trainers on using different training devices and using treats only and positives only. this will work, but the animals are not that unaware, and boy as soon as your pockets are empty, they are on thier own page, the same as people who use shock collars, as soon as the collar is off, they know it. I too am rambling, but until I see a dog or horse communicate with their peers by offering carrots or dog treats, I will take my lead from them. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 7:54 pm: A lot of good advice here but one thing I want to mention as I've seen it touched on in here. I listened to the man who trained Hidalgo at WEG last year and the ONE THING he tried to drive home OVER and OVER AGAIN was NEVER EVER give them TREATS by HAND especially if they're colts - it is NOT safe and when they get used to it and you don't have that treat it can be very dangerous. He gave the example of one of his client's colts, he'd tried to break his client of the treat habit but until this happened he couldn't- colt reared up and came at the client when they opened the stall door, hooves flying, just one example he gave, there were more. Aside from that, it only encourages the nipping as they really do look for the treat. Mares, not so much but the boys already have that tendency on top of the teething issue. Thought I should mention.I also give my boys a stick, traffic cone, something interesting to chew on that keeps them busy. I just hand it to them when they start to bother me - it works and I've got some pretty funny videos out of it - one liked to bite down on a traffic pylon then somehow get it on his head like a party hat & prance around. I've brought up a few colts as well and some are nippier than others, a thumbnail to the inside of the nose (not to draw blood, just to be unpleasant) or puffing up at them and making it very uncomfortable using their language with a well timed smack to the chest and loud NO! I've even squealed at them - go ahead and laugh but it got the point across) Or as Susan suggests backing up & kicking. Just make sure they're not doing the same trying to assert their dominance. When dealing with young colts things can get dicey if you don't know what you're doing. Be sure to have professional help if you're new at it. |
New Member: chase99 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 9:52 pm: Hi Susan, I think you said that so well. Mostly its posturing, and like you said we can take our cues from the animals and try to communicate in ways that they naturally understand. This is not an exact science, and probably what makes it so fascinating to us animal lovers. It requires reading the animal then trying to communicate back in as friendly a way as possible so that a relationship is built in which doing what we want them to do is what they want to do. So there must be a level of trust there, but there also must be a bottom line that it is in their best interest to do so as well (the right thing easy, wrong thing difficult). Hey, I dug out a nylabone from the dogs toys and it worked nicely to entertain him while haltering. It was of the right length that he could have it in his mouth but I could still slip the halter over his nose! Thanks for that idea, it will stay with the halter for awhile!Hi Andrea, So you've touched on a subject that I'm not really sure about...I have seen both sides (treats vs. no treats) make very good cases for their standpoint. I saw a former marine animal trainer gone horse trainer (its a lady, can't come up with her name) use clicker training and treats to achieve impressive results with horses. I know Dr. O has basically said that he believes that they can make the distinction between taking an offered treat and overtly trying to bite. But I think that logically if the treats are flowing that they start trying to find them, and youngsters probably lack impulse control. I will confess to something that I have debated with myself about a lot...when I feed him his beet pulp I wet it with warm water and just stand next to him while he eats. Well... he gets a bite from his feeder then wants my hand where he puts his mouth while he chews. Each bite he turns and searches out my hand. He knows the food is coming from the feeder, I have decided that it is a sweet skin to skin contact he is wanting, possibly like when nursing. He is very sweet then and never trying to bite. I feel like its ok and may help the bonding. As far as treats at other times, when I have worked on certain maneuvers, sometimes he gets annoyed, or a bit agitated, and I have produced a treat and it sweetened his mood, and it really felt like a reward for his correct response. This may be one of those things that isn't cookie cutter. When treating dogs, you eventually go to sporadically rewarding them, so they do it with the hopes that they will get treated. I kinda feel that this may be the best approach with Ari, sort of reading when he really needs a treat (like when I really could use some chocolate). But I am ready to revise if necessary. Does the trainer of Hidalgo offer any other suggestions for rewarding proper response? I don't think Ari likes tons of petting, and even feel like it overly stimulates him... in fact petting actually brings his mouth around! I think we all can recognize that there are individual differences among all animals, so it may just be figuring it out. But you've given me an idea to try--maybe I will reward sometimes with a toy. One of my dogs was very food motivated, the other followed my every move if I had a tennis ball in hand... worth a try on the horse too! |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 10:07 pm: Oh and Andrea, too funny about the pylon party hat! And funny you should mention squealing, I had seen neighbor horses back Ari off by squealing combined with a quick "bounce" and I did that last night. It was something he understood, he stepped right back and stood there looking intently at me and chewing. I saw another horsewoman do a backwards kick (like Susan said) with a squeal to back off a horse that was following too close, I like these ideas that are in the horse's language. Ok now I'm done! |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2011 - 10:58 pm: Well Connie, the guy who trained him is Rex Peterson and he's an old school cowboy. I've learned a lot from old school cowboy types. I'm sure if you contacted him he would answer your question. That was one thing he was absolutely adamant about but then again, Hidalgo is a stallion. Is your boy a stallion? Both of my colts were at the time I was dealing with this and as a rule I discourage hand-fed treats if they're mouthy.I have a big 17.3h gelding who USED to be mouthy but he no longer is, I do give him treats now & then. It's all about the horse as you well know but if you have one that's going through a stage and you know he's going to bite and you're trying to break him of it, it just makes sense to me to avoid encouraging that behavior by handing him treats. I would offer them in a bucket as an alternative. Just a thought. |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 - 3:51 pm: this is Levi, why it is fun to work with Smart, yet silly horses Have lots of fun with your mouthy gelding, just get him entertaining himself! |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 - 9:13 pm: Hi Andrea, Ari is gelded. I think what you are saying is good advice. I have kind of been stuck on the idea of how does the horse get rewarded for the good behavior, and for the most part I believe that we just take the pressure off when they make the right move. I really haven't given many treats (something like 3 treats in a 3 hour period of handling). I gave no treats today, but we were just walking on the road. He did so good today; I think the time spent this week has made a big difference. Last night some neighbors shot off the big, loud illegal fireworks. They do every year so I had already haltered him just in case. Poor buddy was so scared,I went up there at the start of the fireworks and he sure looked glad to see me! He raced in and out of his shelter then came up and smelled my hand, I took hold of him and steadied him a couple of times then sat with him for awhile after it quit.Your BIG gelding...was he young when was mouthy or older, and did you start offering occasional treats only after the mouthiness stopped? I think I will just stop treats altogether EXCEPT for in emergencies to get him over that darned creek if he just won't go. The other day he walked right over it but then wouldn't come back to go home. Its a narrow part of the trail and trying to put extra pressure on him caused him to almost back off the edge...I felt like keeping it calm was the best bet there. Susan-what a hoot. Was this ringing in 2012? Looks like in the first picture he has had a little too much from the bottle. He reminds me of Ari quite a bit! Apparently he still does well holding things in his mouth. Today I got annoyed with the goat so DrOpped Ari's lead rope to go tie the goat. Ari pick it up and lead himself over to the exit gate, guess he figured he could take himself for a walk! |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 - 10:07 pm: Yep, that was this morning, he is a mess right now, he looks so skinny in this picture, he is not. He is 11 and still uses his mouth to explore. He takes the farriers tools from her back pocket, if I leave gloves on the floor, he eats them, he chews on the lead rope, if I am not paying attention. He also likes baked beans and wine. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 - 10:24 pm: Connie that's exactly it, release of pressure is a reward in itself. A minute or two of letting him rest & think about it after he's done the right thing will help a great deal. Just don't let him sit so long that he starts looking around. The creek might be the exception though, you don't want him backing off anything. You're smart, be creative.Susan, your boy is adorable. I've had my big boy Cash for a little over a year, he'll be 6 in May. I adopted him off the track. Nuts, I tried to upload a couple of pics of him but nothing happened when I hit 'upload attachment'... Sorry. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 1, 2012 - 10:28 pm: That time it worked... I took him to Fiesta Island and we went swimming, he loved it! He's such a big boy he creates a wake when he swims... lol |
Member: brandi |
Posted on Monday, Jan 2, 2012 - 12:06 am: Connie,I have several horses (all geldings, was 6 but sadly now only 5) that are handled by children, so dangerous behaviors are not an option in my barn. I recently acquired a 15-yo Friesian who is very mouthy. No handfed treats for this guy, despite the fact that we normally do lots of treats. I give his face and mouth lots of attention - and he loves it. It is helping to curb his need to get too mouthy. For him, he doesn't really want some "thing" to play with, he wants attention. Thankfully he has not bitten me or anyone, but for now, the kids to do not handle him much, and I can promise you that if he bites, he will be promptly and justly reprimanded as he would by his herd-leader. Good luck with your boy, I'm sure you will find a solution that works, you are putting a lot of thought and effort in. It will pay off. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2012 - 10:05 pm: Hi Susan, your horses are so sweet Maybe I should try a Bushes baked bean and wine supper!?! I'm ok if he sniffs me, but I am being firm about the use of lips for now, and any bite will earn a sting of the crop. Also just keeping him in the corner of my eye to catch him just as he starts. I know that 90% of it is play. Every now and then we get some affectionate moments where his head is low and he just enjoys a rub, without trying to grab something. It will just take time and consistency as everyone says.Andrea...you must live in San Diego! I grew up there and my first horse was actually stabled at a 100y/o stable In Clairemont that was surrounded by new houses. I was able to ride over to Fiesta Island from there . He was a 16.2 hand TB/qtr horse, but I definitely got off to walk him over the I-5 overpass! Were you "riding" this boy in the picture or? Oh and I did give treats last night...in a bucket! Brandi, thanks for the comment...and even more support for the "no hand-fed treat,and reprimand a bite" method. Ari usually seems to get more agitated with face rubbing, I wish he liked it more 'cause I like to do it. My best luck so far with this guy is just to let him smell me, I stand about 18 inches away and let him smell, but if he starts to use his lips I give a verbal warning (or do that squeal and bounce) and he usually retreats. Sometimes I hand him something like a stick and we interact with that. A Friesian...wow they are so pretty, don't know much more about them than that...what color is yours? Everyone, here is sort of a gray area that I would appreciate thoughts on: Sometimes out of play/curiosity he will take hold of my scarf or edge of my coat, not in the same spirit as a bite, yet... Does this warrant the same smack of the crop or something still clear but not as severe? I love seeing all of your pictures, it makes it so much more personal...I haven't been able to get any pictures up yet, keep getting some annoying error message about not being able to connect to the server-ugh. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 7:29 am: Connie, YES! San Diego! Valley Center actually and I was as close to on his back as I could get, he was really moving, I wasn't kidding about him leaving a wake, that boy really makes tracks when he swims!Good girl with your bucket! On the Friesian color question - the only acceptable color according to my friend who is a breeder is black. But I a beautiful horse is a beautiful horse - that only counts in the arena. They are quite lovely, aren't they?! Alarm bells went off in my head when you asked about him grabbing your coat - one of the stories Hidalgo's trainer had was of a friend who lost a breast that way. Not kidding. That man was full of advice... And I'm guilty of allowing my boy Cash to glom onto the toggles on my barn coat (that's his favorite thing, he just loves to hold those in his mouth but that's as far as he ever goes) Getting back to the subject - that story didn't just jump into my head, it exploded into it when I read that. I will never forget it. One of his clients thought it was cute to keep treats in her pocket and her horse went looking for them and took her breast with them. FREAKING OUCH!!! Seriously, contact the man, he will verify! It might be a stretch because yeah, you're not keeping treats in your pocket but hey, you just never know. Better safe than sorry. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 7:30 am: ehem - but A beautiful horse is a beautiful horse... edit mode missed that one ~ lol |
Member: syaler |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 8:31 am: I've been too busy to keep up with posts here. I am really saddened by the posts in which people promote aversive training methods. As one who trains without them I know they are not necessary. I am not going to try to change anyone's mind, but after studying learning theory for many years I know what this type of training does to the relationship. Nothing good. If feeding treats is done PROPERLY it does NOT encourage mouthiness. The animal learns that it has to perform a behavior for a reward. I encourage you all to check out this website: www.HorseTenders.com. I went to the movie Wild Horse, Wild Ride last week and met the Kokal family after the show. They prove what can be done using kindness and NO AVERSIVES to take a mustang fresh from the BLM and in 100 days have a trustworthy, calm, friendly companion with a relationship built on trust and respect. |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 9:23 pm: I can assure you Ann, my animals are spoiled rotten brats, who get way way too many positive reinforcements, just ask my old time horsey friends.Amazingly my animals hardly ever ever have to be reprimanded, if they do, it is a mild correction, compared to the damage that they can do to themselves or others, should they not learn what it is they should not be doing. I agree with you that positive reinforcement teaches what we expect from our animals, but they also need to know that some behaviors, ie: car chasing, horse chasing can be deadly. Some dogs are happy to trade chasing cars for treats, but some seem to find the rewards of the chase a bigger prize. In those cases, you need to have other tools in your tool bag to be sure they are alive the next day. As you can see from my Silly Levi, his love for me is absolute, he trusts me and I him. He has on occassion had to be reprimanded for biting at me, grabbing hay from my hand, running over me, but he really does love me, and when he is nervous he is looking to me to get him through his jitters. I have worked with children and dogs mostly, and have seen how both are not that enjoyable to be around when they are praised for every thing, and never corrected for interrupting adults, pushing around their pals, or dogs that "listen to me really well when I have a treat" I don't want to change your mind either, but I would like you to understand that none of us on this forum are abusive to our animals, and I get the feeling that you think that by correcting our critters we are. |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 9:35 pm: To be fair Ann, I think that you work with rescue animals, and they are in need of security and trust primarily. I have shelter animals that I have worked with and that is our first goal, building trust and self-confidence. I think we are talking about animals that are pretty self-assured. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 10:56 pm: Hi Andrea, well that explains that when I think of a Friesian think of a solid black horse! How cool to go ocean swimming on your horse. And yes ouch on that bite location, though on me it might be worth it if it would create some swelling Read on, the discussion continues...Hi Ann and Susan the discussion goes on! I think this is good stuff, and am trying to digest everyone's point of view correctly. I took a break after reading Ann's post as it knocked be back a step. I think Susan stated the view point well of those of us that have had this problem But I have some questions that I think I have never really gotten an answer on from Ann as to what EXACTLY to do for these behaviors. I too have dealt with rescue animals, fostered a feral extremely fearful dog, and use only very gentle reassuring behavior, never reprimanded her, used light-hearted confidence and probably most of all, the help of my confident trusting dogs to win her over. This poor girl was so terrified she wouldn't even take treats, and it took me 30 minutes to ease close enough to her in her kennel to clip a leash on her. The staff at the no-kill shelter couldn't believe she came out of the kennel with me. She is now homed with a lovely elderly lady, we still meet for hikes and shes washes my face passionately each time. But, now I have a different situation, a probably closer to spoiled, rather pushy youngster that if I remain passive (because believe me I've tried that) seems to gain in boldness, is CONSTANTLY reaching out with his mouth and teeth and raising his head up high trying even harder to get a hold of me if I try to pay more attention to his face. If I walk away every time he goes oral on me I could never interact with him...seriously! Not to mention that it really feels like he won, that this is his understanding of what happened. Not to mention, that this goes on while I am leading him, he tries to take shots at my hand, or if he is behind me at whatever he can reach. I just don't think that we are talking about the same thing, or that you have had this situation to get handled. My daughter has less experience, and keeps backing away, I can see she feels threatened and has quit handling him all together; and although she constantly praises the right things, it seems that her passiveness is not paying off. She even believes that he needs a reprimand, saying why should he be able to bite us and nothing happen? The other point I wanted to bring up again Ann, is about how animal mothers reprimand their young...for instance, if a pup is removed from the litter too early it will not have gotten the feedback from its mother about biting too hard in play. Its hard to tell how this will read, so I want to be clear that I totally respect your viewpoint, but need more workable info to convince me that there is a way to stop these behaviors without some aversive feedback. I have seen children that were allowed to have whatever they wanted to eat, act anyway they pleased in the spirit of self-expression but ended up very unhappy and frustrated without the boundaries being set and maintained. Structure is comforting. If I just agreed with every thing my kids attempted they may not have made it through their teens, but if they did, they would not know how to fit in the world they will have to live in. I did not use corporal punishment with them, I did use time outs, and as they matured cut off computers or cell phones to get their attention. But I can not reason with a horse. There is a language that can be spoken with prudence and contains yin and yang and there are no hard feelings because it is universal in nature. I am always looking for ways to positively interact with my Ari, I dearly love him already, and it hurts me more than it hurts him if I sting him with the crop. It is fairly rare, but I feel necessary when I do. He even sometimes takes a shot at me and then backs up, as if he knows it could come, but its worth a try; he's not that scared of it. He is not being terrorized by any stretch. But Ann, if you can read my specific issues, and for sure know a way other than what we think must be done, I would be very interested in hearing the methods detailed. I took a brief look at the HorseTenders.com but they want to sell you their info so I can't really tell how they would handle my individual creature. So if you know how let us know...I have watched every training thing I can,some I agree with, many I don't, but they have the luxury of editing and choosing the horses they show. I hope this comes across in the spirit I intend, I just can't really see any other viable way. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 4, 2012 - 11:21 pm: Well said Connie. Is he rolling his eye down at you when he's raising his head? That's stud colt behavior and him trying to show he is dominant. Your daughter backing away is reinforcing this behavior which will make him more confident that it is effective. You are correct in thinking horses need structure and there are ways of getting your point across in their language that will keep you both safe and promote an environment of confidence for both of you.He is going to look to you for safety and leadership (or he's going to try to establish dominance). If you ever watch several horses out in a pasture they'll play dominance games to establish a pecking order and they'll do this every day. This is what he's doing with you. That is why it's so important for you to establish that he's NOT the boss and get that fact in his head now. Once he's figured that out and settled down, well, I suppose the best way to say it is "This too will pass". As for fearful animals, I adopted a Great Dane bitch that had never been out of a kennel, she spent the first 2 weeks on the top of our little hill, wouldn't come near us - she would come down to eat & drink, that was it. I finally got her to allow me to come near her and it took several days of vacation just petting her and talking softly to her for her to understand that it was okay to just be a dog and not be afraid. She never left my side after that point until her death of old age. Your boy is not fearful - he's just being a youngun and going through a stage. I've raised babies for 30 years and have been through it a few times, it's worse with the boys. Mares generally aren't mouthy but they can have their issues... You're doing the right thing, listen to all the advice you get here, absorb it and pick what works best for you. That's how I learned over the years. You can never know it all but if you become a sponge you'll learn enough. |
Member: quatro |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 5, 2012 - 11:12 pm: You know Connie, I don't know if this is worth a try or not, but it works great with dogs. I use a squirt bottle on STREAM, not happy spray. When he reaches out at you, zap him with a spray of water between the eyes. Then you can use this "water gun weapon" on your walks, He will probably just see the water container and knock it off. I don't know if this will cause a problem with using fly spray,that would be my only concern.Someone on this site, suggested to me to get Levi to stop crowding on our walks. He just gets ahead of me, mostly because his legs are much longer than mine. But they told me to stop, face him, stare at his feet, and tell him to back up. Don't snap the lead rope, just stop, stare and wait. Sure enough, he stopped, backed up and I was AMAZED. It still works till this day. I tried it again today. So many great tricks to try, I do hope Ann does not go away, and gives us some ideas to try. You can never have enough tricks of the trade. suz |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2012 - 7:17 am: Love that backup thing Susan! I think you might be right about the squirt bottle making fly spray a scary thing though. It took me quite a while to get some of my ponies to accept that darned fly spray (now they all stand for it in pasture) so I would be careful about using that method (just thinking out loud). Would that also give them a tendency towards becoming head shy? I don't know but you know how they can be if they don't like something.An elbow to the shoulder works if they're crowding you on your walks. A bump from the fat end of a dressage whip works too. My boy is 17.3 and when I got him he was fresh off the track and rather pushy, he would try to crowd the heck out of me when I walked him which at that size can get pretty dangerous (had to hand walk him while he healed from a bowed tendon) so we worked on that - he doesn't do it anymore... I still think the nylabone is a fantastic idea and wonder how much of this is due to teething... Usually the boys test you quite a bit at that age, they go up, they nip, they mount your truck... (sigh) |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2012 - 8:53 am: I think he sounds like a smart little stinker who just needs guidance at this point. I've only raised a few colts and each was different, some were very mouthy and pushy, others were like puppy dogs. All turned into nice riding horses and outgrew those habits.I would also play with his mouth and teach him NO means stop whatever behavior he is showing and if he bites while having his mouth handled, grab his lip and twist, or dig your finger nails into the bottom lip for a few seconds and say NO. Then release and carry on like nothing happened. Just don't get into a game of trying to grab his lip and he tries to avoid you, he will win, lol! If he's too far away, a small squirt gun in your hand, sprayed at his nose only, may help. He won't even know how you are spraying him, he'll think your hand is the water spray! Just always rub him afterwards, and act calmy, carry on. Using a small crop or stick that won't break, work in a fenced area first, walk, halt, back. Walk a few steps, halt. If he don't halt within 3 steps, move him back using the halter, and tapping his chest with the crop or stick. I stay facing the same way we were going, and to back, I also stay facing forward. It teaches them to mirror our body language. Be as firm as you need to be, you are not beating him back, just teaching him manners. If at first it takes 5 smacks with the "tool" then it takes 5 smacks! Lots & LOTS of walk, halt, walk, halt, back if he rushes and don't halt. More rushing, more backing, until you get to the point where you take a step, he takes a step, and stops. You think about backing, he thinks about backing! Don't get in front of him, stay at his shoulder. Use words commands, a break of one to three seconds, followed by halter pressure, then keep increasing the "ask" until he responds with a try to show he understands. The reason I say crop or stick is because eventually when we go for woods walks, I know if the horse forgets what we worked on, and I don't have the crop with, I pick up a nice small branch and usually just have to hold in front of the horse's chest as a reminder of his place. The walk halt work is 3 steps, to 5 steps, then keep changing how many steps before you ask to halt. I hope your are always wearing a helmet? I've been hurt when a stud colt reared up when I was leading him and his hoof came down on my head! Just glazed it but ouch! And my first horse as a teen was a stud until he was 3 (Very dumb move!) he constantly bit and reared, and I didn't know anything about correcting the behavior, lucky I din't get hurt worse than some bruises from his biting. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2012 - 9:33 am: Hi Andrea...Yup, he is rolling the eye down, and I told my daughter to try and hold her ground and even lean forward a little looking him in the eye, to keep her arms at her sides to avoid the mouth/arm battle that can ensue (not try to pet). Most of it is blocking his attempts or pushing his head away with the AAH AAH sound that he has learned the idea of. I've feel like he is refraining more, and that we have an established set of responses to discourage the unwanted behavior... with only the most severe (a sting of the crop to his chest) used for an outright head-up bite attempt. He does seem to be responding, and yesterday was so calm and sweet-can't say if it was just his mood or progress for sure, but we handled him separately and both noticed it.Hi Suz ;) I'm definitely going to try the trick of backing him like you described. I've been using Parelli's "harmony game" to try to teach leading. If you aren't familiar with that, it goes like this: I hold the lead rope in my "away" hand and rest my crop on his neck. I suggest we walk by pointing the lead-rope arm forward and by now he usually starts walking. If every thing is in "harmony" we just walk along. When he crowds,I rotate the crop forward toward his eye and sometimes jiggle the lead-rope to encourage him to give space. When he passes me I try to slow him with downward pressure on the halter, but (he is usually quite excited at first) when he gets past me I turn his head in and yield his hind qtrs. and he ends up on the other side. Then we practice from that side. It can take 2-3 side changes then he figures out it is a pain when he passes. Sometimes if he is being extra spicy I will insert about 15 ft. of backing after the hind qtr. yield, then praise him (time-out/friendly game). If he stops/refuses to move forward, the crop rotates back behind his drive line an I do some rhythmic tapping, and he walks on. So the crop communicates a lot of info, I rub and scratch him with it so it has positive associations too. As long as are walking in "harmony" the crop rests on his neck and the lead rope is loose and it does feel very comfortable...sometimes I am able to let the crop down altogether (eventual goal). So besides the possibility of the head-shy aspect I am probably not coordinated enough to manage a spray bottle too, though have used it to curb a behavior with a dog before...he didn't even know at first where it came from! If I am leading through a gate or scary area and am holding the lead rope under his jaw and he persists in trying to get to my hand or the rope, the "chin bump" thing (it may have been on another blog page) seems to be working there. Ann, I too hope you know that although I am skeptical that I can achieve the safe friendly behavior without aversive corrections at times, it is only because of what I have experienced and tried so far. I am totally indebted to the advice from other horse people for the progress so far, and try to err on the side of softness. If you can detail methods that work for these aggressive-type behaviors, I really do want to hear about them, at least for consideration. This whole thing is to learn the best way for our horses, not about pride Ok ladies...I have another question. In haltering, he MAY be catching on to the nylabone trick, and I've wondered about the advisability of just leaving a halter on with the hopes he just grows out of the urge to grab, thus omitting that battle. I know of a way to attach it so that it will release if it gets hung on something...thoughts? |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 6, 2012 - 9:53 am: Hi Angie... was working on my last post then saw yours when I posted it. A lot of good stuff there, really like the leading info, I like the idea of facing forward and having him staying in sync with my steps, forward or backward. A lot of walking is definitely called for. I think it instills the leadership idea.Uhhh, not wearing a helmet, and can see what you're saying there, he has clipped my hand with a hoof when he reared close, I have tried to learn when he is getting too riled and calm things down because I don't want that level of excitement to become standard. But of course there is unpredictability...may need to get one |
Member: leilani |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 12:09 am: Connie,Keep moving with your horse (w/halter) spraying until he/she stops moving and then stop immediately as a reward. I don't think it's the spraying as much as the noise. I got my donkeys to let me fly spray them using this method. Good luck.} |
Member: leilani |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 12:11 am: Oh yeah and patience, patience, patience..... |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 9:55 am: I would NEVER leave a halter on while the horse is unattended. I've seen them hang themselves and even saved a baby at a neighbor's who was giving me a tour of his barn, she managed to get the buckle caught between the top & bottom gate of her stall and was upside down and choking. It may not release, you just don't want to take that chance.There are people that do but I'm not one of them. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 7, 2012 - 7:45 pm: One thing to remember is how horses treat themselves in a herd. They don't sugarcoat the communication. We have three mares, and when the dominant mare wants to eat, drink, whatever, everyone gets out of the way and fast. They don't screw around because they know that she will nail them.I remember reading about a stud colt in a wild herd going around getting in everyone's face. Well, the lead mare ostracized him from the herd until he developed some manners. Sometimes we worry so much about doing the right thing from a training perspective and wanting our animals to be our friend, we forget that they wouldn't be so kind to one of their own. I have a very aggressive Arab mare who I have to watch with other people. She has bitten strangers and is protective of our pasture. I don't worry about her at all with me. We have a great relationship and I rode her for a good 15 years. It's not because she loves me so much. It's because she knows that I'm dominant over her. So I can turn my back on her and not worry about her at all. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2012 - 9:28 pm: Hi Ladies, Sorry,got caught up in a busy weekend...made a point to walk him all three days. We have a neighbor who is planning to sell their place, it has a pasture, three stall barn , pond and more land -its a dream, we are going to try to get our place sold so that we could get that...they said they will try to work with us.Hi Leilani, are you talking about using spray as a reprimand, or about getting him use to spray? Luckily he's ok with spray bottles so far, so not sure if I'm reading you correctly? Andrea, you are such a good source of advice, I will not be leaving the halter on...makes me nervous too, although a young fellow showed me a trick with baling wire that holds the halter on unless it gets a good tug in which the wire just bends open. But we'll just keep working around his mouth. He's so quick, and now DrOps the nylabone to grab the halter . After sliding it off today, I got it back on quickly 3 times and praised him for each, who knows if that did anything, he's always much calmer after the outing. Laurie, you are so right...we do for sure worry and probably over-think a lot of this stuff. In the herd it is very simple... and age appropriate as well. I'm not expecting him to not be interested in me and all the things I have, but just to be respectful. Angie...I have tried the pinch the lip or nostril trick when he starts mouthing, and I have just had to put a little pressure and he pulled back and didn't like it-and thought against it after a couple of times...I like that! If he takes a real shot then he'll still get the crop, but just for "nosy, lippy" stuff that works great. I might hear it for this, but I offer my hand for him to smell, and he's taken to sometimes just start licking it, for a long time, eyes half closed, like a doggie-awwwwwhhhh! Still seeing improvement, the bite tries and unruly stuff is clearly when he and I don't see eye to eye on what we want to do...like he wants to graze, or doesn't want to head toward home, and I have other ideas. I was just planing on practicing walking, stopping and backing in sync today, near his paddock. But when I'd make a turn towards home, he would refuse. Then when I increased the pressure he'd either back up until he was almost going off the bank, or when I put pressure near or on (tapping) his rump leading him with the rope the stinker would charge forward doing little half jumps/rears. I just kept at it, pausing now and then to settle him down and reconnect with him. It took awhile but he eventually decided to cooperate. I don't have a great forehand yield yet, especially when he is like that. So I'm working on that and close range driving, as in the "touch it" game. He seemed to kinda get that, and at times the light bulb comes on and he realizes "oh that's all she wanted!". I even think he enjoyed the interaction, especially at those times...(not just the occasional grazing rewards!). |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2012 - 9:38 pm: I just remember our yearling Friesian we got as a yearling, and she was already 15.1 hands. She hadn't been handled much. So when I walked into the pasture with a bucket, her mode of operandi was to attempt to knock me over and rip off the bucket.My elegant training approach was to yell "back off", and use my bucket as a weapon. ;-) |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jan 8, 2012 - 10:19 pm: Sounds like you are making progress!You said he licks your hand. Do you give him salt every day? I don't know if you said above what you are feeding him but even if he is just getting hay (I don't believe in grains myself any more) a tablespoon of salt a day is what I add to my horses pelleted vitamins. I don't actually measure it, I just grab some with my fingers to sprinkle on their pellets. So it's probably not that much, but at any rate, it's just a thought. Hope you bought that helmet ;) and a whip is safer than the end of a lead rope, gives you a bit more reach while keeping you safe. I like to use a buggy whip, but I will tie the lash up so that I just have a flexible stick to tap with. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, Jan 9, 2012 - 10:08 am: Why thank you Connie! As for licking your hand I think Angie hit it, sounds like he's looking for salt.If he's not yielding his shoulder for you, you might try working with him in the round pen with a whip or carrot stick (one of them fancy natural horseman ship thangs) to get him to yield both his hip and shoulder, then rub it away so the whip isn't scary after you've yielded him with it. Now is the time for you to work with him on the ground and get this stuff embedded in his mind. It's a long process but it's worth it. This will also keep his mind busy and engaged. Intelligent horses need a job. It's definitely safer than trying to work this out on trail when there's a DrOpoff. And speaking from personal experience, it still hurts when you've been smacked in the head when you're wearing a helmet. Horses' heads are solid bone. When they swing it in fear or just plain orneriness, they can really hurt you. Hang in there, it will eventually work out. The good news is they do eventually grow out of this stage but the more you work with them on the ground the better. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2012 - 10:17 pm: Hi Guys...Sorry for the lapse in my response, our internet has been down; thought I posted at work today but apparently it didn't take. Anyway...Well Laurie, I don't know how that approach worked on your Friesian, but I would wager better than it worked on my goat. Does anyone know if goats are able to learn? Mine spends most of our time together in time-out, just to save my bruised legs. Hi Angie, the hand licking-he does have a salt/mineral block that he uses. Also, I'm in the dental field and my hands get washed sooo much, don't think he'd find much salt there. I wonder if its just part of the whole oral fixation? Just my luck that I, a hygienist, winds up with an orally fixated horse . Oh, and sorry, I wasn't clear when I described that last part... I am using either a crop (too short usually for the rump) or a carrot stick to influence his hiney, just using the lead rope by holding it out in front to suggest forward (while standing at his neck). Hey Andrea, yeah I meant that, you (and Susan, Laurie and Angie) have insured that I don't go weak or doubt that firmness is a must, as well as given me tools use. I don't have a round pen, but have a oval ring nearby without a gate right now. I am avoiding circles now, mainly because he often overreacts (sometimes rearing) and comes in on me, so I am trying to get a better forehand yield, and try that short-range driving "game" of Parelli's, to insure that I can keep him off of me, also hoping that more time will ease his overreaction. I think like you said, that its key to remember that its a process, and just putting in the time and patience. One of the things I like that Parelli says is "polite and persistent persuasion in the proper position" (he likes "p" words!). He also says "take the time it takes because it'll take less time", silly but works with my mentality. Parelli advocates taking breaks and kinda reassuring the horse, like when he stops and walks toward you, as if he wants to know that everything is ok. I read something on Naturalhorsesupply.com (they have a slew of articles) that kinda helped me with my mindset/demeanor: it talked about the lead mare in a herd, how when she wants to go somewhere she doesn't walk around the other horses (politely like I do) she walks straight to where she's going and expects the others to yield out of the way. Hmmm. So I'm puttin on my mare-ish behavior. Now when I go in, if he's standing in my way I make him move. He looked a tad surprised but complied. Good stuff I think. Thank- you all for being a part of this with me! You've given me a great sounding board and stiffened the backbone of a sometimes too-soft softie. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2012 - 8:14 am: IMO, a horse can't get enough salt from a block. I have 2 buckets hung on the side of the barn, one with pure salt, one with mineral salt, both in the loose form. I still add a bit of loose white salt to their feed since this time of the year I can't keep those buckets dry all the time.Of course this licking your hand thing may just be his way of connecting with you. They are all different, and all interesting creatures! I have a super sensitive challenged me to the core Friesian mix gelding who really taught me that less is more, patience is everything, and how little it takes to get a horse to respond to you. I am wondering if you have tried just standing, slowly raising your leading hand/arm, and pointing the way you wish him to go? Be totally relaxed (but ready, if that makes sense?) and wait for him to figure out a response. Some horses just never adapt to a rope or "stick" being used to tapping them, and using either keeps them too revved up! Play with looking the way you are pointing, looking at him if he comes towards you, saying something like "AH NO" whatever, if he approaches, good boy if he walks off. Watch his ears and eyes, see if he's thinking. What I observed: The lead mare leads quietly, without more than a slight change in body language, an ear back, maybe moves her rear over one step. The other horses mirror her without thought it seems. Don't know about not being polite, our lead mare was very polite when we had a small herd of 6. Every other mare though was very mare-ish because they weren't number 1! There are so many views and methods of training, it's enough to give you a headache! And every horse is different too. I say as long as we're having fun, being challenged, and staying safe, good enough. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2012 - 9:34 pm: Hi Angie...I do start like you describe, only increasing the "pressure" slowly if he doesn't respond (like by just looking at his rump then waving the carrot stick near his "bubble". Then if he is still stuck tap him. I think he was just really resisting the idea that we were heading toward his paddock. Yeah, I think this one is fairly challenging, maybe like like your Friesian, but I really enjoy trying to figure it out. I think what you suggest is gonna really be the key with him-I think he's pretty sensitive, and that I will have to really balance between giving in and being in charge. Soft authority. I give him many opportunities to be young and curious, check things out etc. I think taking it slow will pay off.Most of the time he moves off way before I ever have to tap, though may stop repeatedly on the way home-opposite of barn sour! That day he was being special (thank goodness). At that time he wasn't thinking-his head was high, ears mostly back, little bit of whites showing in his eyes, backing up. I just fed him rope til he stopped backing, then started to politely ask for him to move, he would, but only if it was away from home! As for the headache from trying to wade through all the info/advice, I know what you mean . But thankfully most of you ladies are basically on the same page. Dr. O said it sounded like I was all over the place on my methods, so I'm trying not to be, but you don't know about something until you try it, and I think there is something to be said for creativity and flexibility. How old was your Friesian when you got him, started working with him, and where did you get most of your methods from? |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2012 - 10:32 pm: Angie you reminded me of something! As you're playing your driving game, look him in the eye to drive him forward and slowly look back towards his rump to take the pressure off, watch how this affects his speed at whatever gait you have him in. More mare stuff. She's right about the direct mare approach too, if you displace them you are showing them who is dominant, whoever backs off is submitting (remember your daughter backing up?).Horses are amazingly observant, they'll notice if you twitch your little finger. Very sensitive creatures. As for him coming over on you, do you have 2 carrot sticks? Can you keep a spare one in your off hand and quick pop it up in front of him should he be a pill to keep him from coming at you? Usually holding one up in front of a horse's face will deter them from advancing. Make it unpleasant for him to do this and he'll start thinking before he does this again. As for him licking you and the ick factor - heh, horse spit never killed anyone - lol. Just don't let him get a nip in. Could be salt, could be bonding, who knows. Just WATCH him closely, if you even THINK he's going to nip deter him before he's formed the thought. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 10:04 am: Connie, I got Tango as a yearling. Another yearling kicked him the first month home, and we had a pattern of stall rest followed by a bit of training, stall rest because he'd get lame again. ANYthing that could possibly happen that scared and/or hurt Tango, seemed to happen. Got stung by bees on a walk in the woods, got scared and ran through a fence with 30' ropes dragging (I was ground driving him) sat down after pulling back while tied, etc. Poor horse became terrorized just being in the cross ties! He was never mean, or nippy, always ALWAYS came to see me, seeking attention and reassurance. But so afraid of being touched, and sound or movement above him would cause him to bolt, which would scare him more, and it just snowballed.I knew he hated being afraid and it was up to me to figure out how to get past his mental block, his fears. And I had to stay safe too! (stepped on me and ran me over a few times when he got spooked) I tried Clinton Anderson methods, too intense for him, think it ruined Tango rather than helped. A bit of Parelli, but I personally find that tiresome, and got more out of Linda's tips for riding than all that ground work. The first turning point was reading "It is not I who seeks the Horse, the Horse Seeks me." Klaus Ferdinand Hempling. Mirroring your horse, being as one, body language, etc. It got me thinking about HOW & WHAT I was thinking, and how my goofy sensitive horse was picking these thoughts up with my intentions showing in my body language even though I didn't think so. Tango didn't believe me because a part of me was always worried he was going to jump or bolt. It's very hard to lie to a horse! You can't march out there with fake confidence. I had to be very matter of fact, and treat him as a horse. And as an individual, not paying heed to if what our interaction was correct according to some "expert" with a collection DVD's out. If he needed reassurance, he got it (still needs it at times, but it's short & sweet) And (gasp) our turning point was when I started feeding him alalfa pellets, as I got on, while riding, to reassure him it was o.k. that I was on his back, nothing bad was going to happen. We are partners, friends, and he can trust me, and I trust him. We have spent 1000's of hours just taking walks, and I never thought we'd get past him bolting and tensing up. It was up to me to find what worked, and what worked was really the simpliest! Ignore what you don't want, correct what you need to, and a second later forget that happened. Don't get caught up in any one method, (I think CA methods are pointless unless you have a horse that is very rude and charging you. IMO) Dressage for a New Age by Dominique Barbier is my other favorite book. "To achieve the cooperation of one's horse on a mental plane, rather than though the application of physical force alone." Our thoughts and our intentions matter so much to these wonderful animals and that is what is missing from many of the clinicians methods. It can't be taught, it must come from within us. Phew! Ramblings of an old lady here, lol! I only wish I had known this stuff 40+ years ago. Enjoy your horse! Enjoy the journey! |
Member: lilo |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 11:07 am: And good ramblings they are! Lilo |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 5:50 pm: Hello all,Let me correct the above notion about horses not getting enough salt from a trace mineral block. To use specific scientific terminology, "it just ain't true". At least for all but "maybe" the most extreme conditions, say the endurance horse on a competition ride on a hot day. There is no salt block in the wild so horse must get their extra minerals essentially by consuming dirt low in specific macro and micro mineral concentration. Add to this that most prepared foods are balanced for mineral content and it is easy to see that a trace mineral block is really a bit of a luxury for horses. Connie, the horse's mind thrives on consistency and are easily confused by change. DrO |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 11:09 pm: You Guys are Awesome.Hi Andrea~ I am just becoming more conscious of directing him with my eyes, not entirely sure how that plays out in horses, have it down pretty well with dogs, and am sensing that it is fairly similar. When he stops, I'm holding the lead rope out in front and stepping back slightly to look at his hiney. He now almost always starts off just with that. I see that as "pressure" that gets him moving, then I just look forward or away when he moves. I almost think that looking in the eye is like a "block" or possibly a challenge (as in dogs). I have always been intrigued by body language, and I'd say (at the risk of....) that I have very good intuition/communication with dogs. But they are predators and horses are prey animals so I would allow for some differences. Maybe that's how the look in the eye works, to move them off just like it works on the rump? I only have one carrot stick, have gotten pretty good at some ninja-like moves tho! I'm still using that Parelli harmony game: it rests on his neck when we walk in harmony (I hold it in the middle of the stick so I can swing either end). If he crowds, I rotate it toward his eye, and sometimes raise/jiggle the lead rope at the same time to move him away. I can also swing the lower end in front of his chest to block him trying to pass me. If he stops, I can point it at his rump (rarely need to tap, like I said, looking there is working pretty well now). He's just so busy! I guess someday when he's old and settled I may miss all this, but gosh its so nice when he JUST walks! Oh I don't mind horse spit, I think his licking is endearing, he usually does it a my goodnight visit, and yawns and sticks his tongue way out-goofy...sweet. Hey Angie...Well I NEVER ramble! Poor Tango! He was very lucky to have someone who cared enough to take that time like you did to help him gain his confidence. I feel like Clinton A. uses too much intimidation, it probably works, but I'm ok taking it slowly and getting the trust first. I feel like with this guy my best bet is to keep trying to settle him out of over-reacting to pressure. I guess C.A. wears them out...they get tired and settle. I want to be able to burn off some of his energy, but hope to do it in a less intimidating way. One of my favorite things about Parelli is not entirely the games, but his demeanor and some of his quotes "polite and persistent persuasion..." "Take the time it takes...." they help settle me down! And you are so right, you can't lie to a horse! You can't even TRY to ACT casual around them, they get suspicious! Matter of fact is the best. This is what we're doing, and its ok. I think I'll look for that first book on Amazon...sounds cool. Hi Dr.O, Yep, I know that they need consistency, just like the kids and dogs. I almost feel like we may be talking about two different things. Like when I say creativity and flexibility, I was thinking about how I've tried to use other things to keep his mouth busy, like handing him the nylabone to hold so he wouldn't grab the halter when haltering. I think of it kinda like with toddlers, sometimes if they just persist in trying to climb the curtains its just easier to redirect them than to keep battling, its age appropriateness. I think he is just almost overcome with the urge to mouth, and am hoping time will take care of a lot of it, and am seeking ways to avoid having to punish or battle it constantly. I know he sometimes grabs when he is scared, like today we were walking up a dirt road and some lady came flying around a tight curve in her car- I threw up my hand and she skidded-stones flying-to a stop about 20 ft. from us. He of course startled and grabbed my coat sleeve in his mouth and just held on, with wide eyes. Well, I eased it out of his mouth, I wasn't going to discipline him for that, but that's "inconsistent" with how I normally treat a grab of my clothing...if you can see how I mean. As far as the ques I give and the responses to his behavior, I seek to keep them the same and reprimands appropriate to the offense...I like the nostril/lip pinch for "lipping" me (new word), but for a out and out bite or attempt a crop to the chest, glare in the eye. So its not that I'm changing things all the time. These ladies have mainly reinforced my belief that he needed some sort of reprimand, and given me a sounding board for the new little quirks we're working through, but while I have read and considered all the different suggestions, I have only used the crop on the chest and the lip pinch as I described. I experimented briefly with the mouth rubbing (tended to agitate him) and have used the "squeal" like a horse (don't laugh, it has its place, but if used much doesn't work). But when he's being very mouthy more than one thing in the arsenal can help, it gets his attention again. Can you tell me what you know about mouthiness in relation to age and or teething? |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Saturday, Jan 14, 2012 - 11:27 pm: The eye thing as told to me puts pressure on them as you stare them in the eye and the farther back down their body you move your gaze the less the pressure. Move it back to the eye, the pressure increases. I used it this evening on my big gelding and sure enough, his speed increased as I got closer to his eye and decreased as I looked towards his rump then back up again when I went back to the eye. Pretty cool stuff. Lets you know they're paying attention to you too |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2012 - 9:52 pm: Hi Andrea...that does sound cool, I haven't gotten a chance to check it out on my end yet. Been awful busy working on our house, just fitting in a walk Fri.-Sun. He was at his worse again yesterday, I'd like to say that I didn't get mad, but I was. It may have been a good thing though, as I resolved that he would behave and I just made him yield front and back and whoa and don't even look like you want to bite(it all started with a bite over the fence as I passed by)! I flat decided that my tendency toward softness and maybe too "politely asking" was giving him too much room to try to be boss. When he did good I praised him, but any reverting back and I buckled right down. Hooked him up again tonight in his paddock and led him around and took no crap again. I just need to do that, there was a shift in his demeanor both days, and he wanted his head rubbed where usually he'd want to mouth if I went to pet him. He turned his head and looked at me while leading and I kept looking at him, so not exactly what you were referring to but I had his attention. I hoped/wanted to just have him cooperate without me using much intimidation, but I think just settling it here and now will make it easier. Funny how I thought I was being firm with him, but had to really have had enough to make me push him into submission. Maybe some horses that would work on but not him...I thought with my shepherd dogs that they were good for me as I have to be assertive with them. No different with him, even if he melts my heart, there will be a time for that when we establish our grounds. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2012 - 10:20 pm: Very well said and I think you did exactly as you should have. Keep putting him in his place and he will grow out of it, as he is a gelding this will pass. Congratulations on your little success!!! And if you do decide you need a little outside help my trainer is WONDERFUL with this type of stuff and she's very reasonable. She's in Menifee CA if that's local to you. I'd be happy to refer you. She's got a barn full of 10 stallions right next to each other, all quiet, calm and respectful. Vet and shoer have confessed to checking to see if their parts are still there - lol.Not a pitch, trust me - just another option if you feel like you're out of sorts. Never let yourself take out anger on him - that's the hard part sometimes. He's just being a horse, but if it helps you to focus the firmness and correct him when you need to, then that's great. One of the old cowboys I learned from back in the day was always complaining about the creampuffs in the barn who coddled their horses and let them walk all over them. That lesson stuck with me, I learned a lot from that crusty old fart. |
Member: lrhughes |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2012 - 1:24 am: Good for you Connie. I think you'll be seeing improvements if you keep up the demand for good behavior. I had an old mare that bossed a heard of 8 horses. A new mare came in at 2 years old and wanted to be pushy, but the old mare and all the others kept their places. Then the new one got bigger and older and displaced a couple of the less dominant horses in the hierarchy. When she was about 5 she started ignoring the old mare and moving quicker on her get aways than the older horse could manage. This wasn't highly obvious, but an undertone...One day I had the 2 of them in a large round pen. The old gal saw her chance and backed around that corral kicking the younger mare with both hind feet non-stop. I had to go in and the now confirmed lead mare and put her out of the corral. The younger one never challenged her again tho Sierra lived to 30 years of age. In fact, Mercy, the young one became 3rd in command behind the oldest and next oldest mares both of whom maintained the lead and a strong partnership. Interesting. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2012 - 7:20 am: LRH, that's awesome! It's wonderful that you are astute enough to watch the herd dynamic, understand what was going on and articulate it. Thank you for sharing it with us! Trust me, I know plenty of people that would just think that mare was just being an obstinate cow. Fascinating how they work things out if you take the time to really watch. |
Member: chase99 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2012 - 10:02 pm: Hi Andrea-Gee thanks, you've been great to support that assertiveness that I need. I wouldn't take anger out on an animal,and I was aware that I was angry, but channeled it into making him do as I wanted and not questioning if I was being too hard. After he realized that doing the wrong thing was much more difficult (than I'd made it previously) there was a welcomed shift, with all his attention on me, and he definitely thought against trying things that he might've otherwise. I think I will be able to switch into that much easier now and he will not test as readily or long either. It feels better, and that just seals it.I remain open to getting a trainer at some point, and appreciate your recommendation....however I live in Asheville, NC, beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains, but have some leads on trainers here. I would want observe them first. I had a lady out here (the first week I'd owned him, she was recommended from a ritzy stable) just to get advice on how to get started. Wasn't real impressed, she didn't take even a minute to meet him then was trying to longe him...he never having done that just reared and bolted and she charged in on him jerking his lead rope, uhh it was kinda ugly. She sorta realize that may not have been the way to start and backed off. So I want to observe in action first. I may have tended toward too soft, but she was definitely making him wild. When I got firm with him, he calmed down fairly soon. But if I reach an impasse, or just need some help (which I probably will ) I will find a trainer. I like your "crusty old fart" wisdom too. Thanks Andrea! Hi LRH...I second that, I wish I had a herd to observe, I find it fascinating that the two older mares actually paired up...strength in numbers! It would probably make seeing all the subtle nuances of their body language come much quicker, something that really intrigues me. And thank you for the words of encouragement too, I was allowing too much, thinking that he is young and still getting used to us, but now I see better that he has the capacity for, and needs to be made to behave now. |