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Discussion on What is the heartiest jumping breed?
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Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 12:43 pm: |   |
Hi everyone:
Thank god for this web site!!! I have a question. I have been having really bad luck since I purchased my 8-yr-old TB gelding. He's got heaves, he's had an abscess on a rear hind foot, and now he's lame in front - don't know why yet. My question is, is it just him or are all TBs like this. Should I try to find another TB or is the warmblooded horse a better choice. Just plain and simple I am tired of riding other horses and I would like to be able to ride my own. I just want a relible - within reason, horse to ride the jumpers with. Am I asking too much? Can anyone out there make any suggestions? Thanks, Liz. |
Dr. Carol Artlett
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 1:17 pm: | |
Hi Liz,
It is probably like all breeds, some are better than others healthwise and in certain disciplines. I have heard that TBs are more prone to health problems but then there will be variation within this group. Some will be healthy and never have a sick day in their life, while others will have one thing after another. My TB has a lot of hoof problems, generally throwing shoes but also has had a couple of abcesses. I guess only you have to assess how inconvenient it is to your riding. You did not mention how long you had your horse or if he was off the track.
Carol |
A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 1:28 pm: | |
Hello Elizabeth,
It seems that you have had bad luck with your TB, and I can understand that you are tired of riding other horses [I've been through this so many times, that I know how you feel!].
I do believe that thoroughbreds are more fragile than other breeds, and more prone to leg problems. I don't know if your chap raced, but we see here all the time that tb's off the track rarely are completely sound, or rarely stay sound all the time. But one cannot generalise, of course, and some tb's are really strong and sturdier than others.
My first tb, bought 1982 at 10 years old, was really fit until he was 14 years old, when he was diagnosed with navicular disease, but he had raced hard until he was 7 years old, so it was not surprising. Although I had to retire him totally at 17 years old, he stayed fit and healthy until I lost him when he was 23. My horses since then have unfortunately been fairly fragile.
I look now at my next tb's veterinary record for the first year :
- biliary and related colic
- related rhinitis
- abscess in throat
- conjunctivitis
- mild gas colic
- sidebone
- locked stifle
- mild colic
- lacrimal duct blocked
- severe viral enteritis
- lacrimal duct
- lame from galloping like mad fool
- x-ray front legs
- blood tests
- cut leg, near fore
- lame, near fore
- respiratory infection
- mild colic
- blood tests
And I promise you, that was only the first 12 months from when he was 8 years old to 9 years old. His complete veterinary record is a novel!
He is now 20 years old, and really fit and well. I think he got rid of all the nonsense and accumulated problems in the first couple of years, and with lots of loving care, has stayed really well.
I go through months of not riding, but being a nurse and devoted handmaiden - but this would not be right for everyone. My horses are firstly my companions and pets, and secondly I ride them if all goes well. I'm sure I'm going to be told that I am the total pessimist and shouldn't put you off tb's - and I don't mean to, as they are my favourite, most beloved breed of horse - but
I do believe they are not as strong as other breeds.
I have friends with warmblood crosses, warmbloods, local varieties, anglo arabs, etc. and they do seem to be sturdier horses than t.b's.
Whatever you decide, lots of luck !
Alexa |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 4:32 pm: | |
I think what is more important is:
1) horse history - what has it been used for, when was it started, how was it started, has it been in regular work recently ...
2) physical conformation
3) management practices - type of food, feeding schedule, turnout practices and pasturemates, type of work schedule, worming, shoeing, etc.
TBs as a breed are often started quite young, before joints are finished, they may have been started in a racing career, then someone may have tried to make them into a 'chaser, event horse or open jumper ...
Rather than say the breed has trouble, I would say how they are used and managed can creat problems.
My little TBx is a vet's nightmare - he only gets to visit twice a year for shots and tooth floating, :O)
But, she did have a couple of issues over 12 years ... a runny eye, bumped hock, jumped and kicked up by another mare wanting to be alpha, bug allergies, the possible navicular that seems to have gone away, a princess/pea mentality if something is not perfect, a sarcoid that was removed, slightly suspect hocks ... touch wood, she's pretty sturdy.
Of course, she wasn't started until age 4, never run hard and put up wet and has had thoughtful, researched care for 12 years.
Not bad as far as horse health goes. Cheers. |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 6:40 pm: | |
Thanks for all of your suggestions. Here is more information. I have owned the horse since March 1999 - so 8 months. As far as I know he was raced, the Jockey Club reports him in four races. Then he was used on and off as a lesson horse for three years. So I am assuming he's had some hard work. Physical conformation is OK. He's big in the shoulder and lacks in the tush, but I think this is more a muscle issue. However, I haven't been able to work on the butt, because of all of the other problems. That is why I'm losing confidence that he's going to be OK, I guess. I am just hoping not to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks, Liz. |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 7:07 pm: | |
Have you had a vet look at him since he is off up front?
Sometimes what appears lame is a side effect of the original cause ... a horse that is sore on his left hind may make his right foreleg off, I believe, trying to compensate.
It is possible, the original injury is still giving him some aches and pains.
I hope you are able to sort him out. If you wrap each leg with a different colored polo and video, you can check how he is moving in slo-mo, which make also help.
Let us know how he gets on. |
Nannette Hermes
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 10:03 pm: | |
Hi Liz,
I have a TB off the track, he is 5 now. He has a wonderful personality but, unfortunatly, is a wreck physically.
String halt, back problmes, and is weak in the back end. Very consistent with cross cantering, both directions. Vet, trainer, and chiroptractic bills have gotten the best of me!
He has since been retired to offical trail horse and is very happy walking my husband down the trails.
I can certainly relate to your dilema! Unfortunatly I am all out of suggestions, good luck! |
barbara carry
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:10 pm: | |
Hello
I think like Chris said there is alot to take into account why horses are having health problems. I think their past history and conformation are the biggest. My personal experiences with TB's has been good. I have owned 5 so far and one is thirty and still being ridden. He never raced but fox hunted for 15 years and was a school horse for 3 yrs before I bought him. None of my TB's had/have hoof problems or any other physical restricions or problems. Only 2 of them raced and it was when they were older (4 yrs) and fully matured. I had them all fully vetted out before purchasing. I take good care of them but they are expected to do there jobs. All but the 30 yr old compete succesfully in h/j and dressage.
You can probably tell that I am pro-TB but am always cautious when buying ANY horse.
Good luck. |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:46 pm: | |
Hi
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. The thing is I did have my horse fully vetted (to the 9s) and drug tested. Nothing showed up.
A week later I discovered he had the heaves and its all been down hill from there. I think he does have some conformation problems which could be overcome, if consistent riding could be accomplished. It hasn't been in the last 8 months, due to the problems.
He was raced....and based on all the comments I've received that's probably a big part of the problem. I guess I can opt for a TB if he hasn't been raced, but how easy or difficult are those to come by??
I think I have come to the conclusion, after 8 consistently bad months, that he needs to live in someone's back yard. I think he's just not going to work out as a sport horse, Unfortunately, because he's very sweet.
But if I buy another horse, I would just like something that can hold up to the pressure of jumping 2X a week and showing 4X a year or so. I really don't think this horse has it in him.
Any more opinions would be helpful. Liz
PS I just realized that I spelled Hardiest wrong. OOPs |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 5:30 pm: | |
Liz,
He could just be going through the "terrible 8's" and be pretty good/healthy after he is sorted out.
Things have a way of happening in series/groups and not on a sprinkled out average.
Before you give up on him, have a vet diagnose the front problem. What is his turnout like? My mare got a couple of abcesses early in her life due to the turnout out paddock's condition. If you can keep a horse on more solid footing without much mud and in smaller horse groups, it can help with the stone bruises that make abcesses.
Lameness that comes on suddenly and is acute is typcially an abcess. Twice a day soaks in hot water with Epsom salts can help draw it out.
As far as heaves, horses benefit from 24/7 turnout and wetted down hay to reduce the dust exposure. Someone on this site recommended supplementing with a mix of herbals called Cough Free and someone else reported it seemed to help for heaves. Vitamin C and/or selenium/E supplementation is also reputed to help.
A little management tweaking may make him useful for what you describe, or get him healthy enough to recoup some of your investment when you place him in his next home.
Cheers. |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 5:46 pm: | |
Dear Chris:
Thanks for your suggestions, unfortunately I've tried all of them and they are not working. He's out 24/7, he's on herbs...and has been for months, he's off hay and eats a hay substitute. As soon as its warm out, he reacts. Believe me I have researched his problems like you wouldn't believe.
The problem is one minute he's healthy and the next he isn't. He's been to four vets, had chest x-rays and seen holistic health practitioners as well. He's on herbs, msm, garlic, and a new product called Gluta Syn, an antioxidant. He's also been on steriods on and off. I've also used ventipulman (a broncodialator). I am running out of money and patience. I really have tried everything...I think I have to move on. I just don't want to make the same mistake twice. Liz |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:41 pm: | |
Liz,
I understand, now, with more information. Isn't it totally frustrating?
Sometimes the only luck we have is bad luck.
As far as picking a horse out to buy, it is always a gamble. I've seen wonderful horses in steady work that were ridden often by the purchaser as a student, then the student buys the horse and 6 weeks later some weird thing happens the horse is unridable - no one's fault, pure bad luck.
For jumpers, though, my bias would be a TB - I do like them after all these years. I hope you have good luck finding the horse of your dreams and find a good home for this fellow.
Cheers. |
A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 4:16 am: | |
Hello again,
I would say that you should not get a TB again. I know they are really good jumpers but, as you've seen, their legs don't stand up too well to constant hard work.
Although the main horse bred in SA is still a TB, due to the horse-racing industry, I notice show jumpers are veering away from TB's and going for warmbloods or warmblood crosses, now that some fine warmblood stallions have been imported.
Hanoverians are very popular, or Hanoverian/TB crosses, similarly Trakheners/Westphalian/pure or crosses, and some excellent Anglo-Arabs have been bred who are tall with good bone, and jump beautifully. We even have an Andalusian stallion, and a pure Spanish stallion [not sure what that is], but I guess that's more for dressage.
I'm sure you have a far greater variety of breeds in America, who would be stronger and sturdier than TB's.
I hope you will keep us in touch with what happens.
Alexa |
Helen Weedon
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 6:47 am: | |
I read somewhere that alot of TBs have the worst feet in the world, with particularly thin soles which are proan to bruising and abcesses. Is this due to in-breeding?
On the subject of reusing TBs when they come off the track alot depends on why they came off in the first place. The wastage of beautiful, highly bred animals is terrifying and as several members are reporting they just go for dog meat. Those that are sound but not just quick enough can go on to lead 'normal' lives but usually need alot of retraining as they only get a basic breaking in for racing. Having been forced like hot-house plants their bones and tendons age prematurely. I think flat racers have more problems than the jump racers. Here in the UK alot of Irish TBs are used for jump racing. They are more sturdily built and resilient and make a better bet for someone looking to buy a horse for jumping or eventing. |
barbara carry
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 8:58 am: | |
OK
I have to jump in here. Like I said earlier I have owned 5 TB's NONE have had feet problems or any other problems. Just regular vet care. I show them in h/j/d. They HAVE stood up to the rigors of training constantly. Before buying any horse (including an App. mare) I have the horses history, fully vetted and any other information about the horse that I can get my hands on. I try to stay away from the real fine boned TB's but I do have one and she is my most expensive horse and has won me the most money in the show ring. I bought her as a 3 yr old when she was bearly broke. (she didn't race) She is now almost 6 and has shown up and down the East coast VERY succesfully and with NO soundness or other health problems. One of my other Tb's I have had for 5yrs and he came off the track at 5 as a stud. He raced as 4 yr old. He has shown in the jumpers and dressage where the judges love him. Same for him, NO health issues.
As for the retraining of off the track TB's it has varied between the 2 that I have. They were barely broke. One was really tough and quick and the other we picked up right at the track brought her home and she's been a doll. I literally have to keep sqeezing her to keep her going. She is wonderful to the jumps. A good thing about TB's OTT is that they have seen a whole lot so going to a horse show or new places usually doesn't scare them.
I wouldn't focus too much on the breed, more on all the issues Chris brought up awhile ago. I am always real cautious buying any horse. I would consider having a pro check out any horse that you are interested in buying.
Good Luck! |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 10:29 am: | |
An addendum to "OTT" TBs -
In the past, I had a connection to a breeder of racehorses who was very tender hearted about his horses. The geldings that were done racing, or not speedy enough, came through my instructors hands.
Each horse, though needing training for our purposes, was a wonderful, obedient, sweet, willing animal. They were later placed in loving homes. I would not hesitate to take one from this source if I needed a horse.
Like children, it really does make a difference in how you nuture and raise the animal to maximize their god-given abilities.
If I had a horse with chronic hoof problems, I would look at my management practices - feeding, shoeing, turnout, etc. before condemning the breed.
Now, many race horse people believe a very low heal is important for speed ... and horses are reshod often because of using race plates and to hope the shoes stay on ... so the problem with hooves may not be due to inherit genetics, but how they are managed.
I've a friend with a TB that had very difficult hooves and was constantly losing shoes. She found a different farrier (after going though several) and it made all the difference - shoes were staying on for 6 weeks and the horse seemed to be much more comfortable, fewer ouchies, etc.
Rolex (highest level 3 day event in the US) maintains a web site. I'm sure somewhere there are lists of the horses competing and what breed they are. I would bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of the horses competing are tbs, next being tbxs and a few warmbloods. Many of the wbs have lots of tb in them, so if you check the lines, a wb/tb cross could easily be 7/8 tb.
After being being a "student of the horse" for so many years, it continues to amaze me how small evironmental things can make enormous differences. And I have a real respect for their levels of tolerance as well as their forgiving natures. The more I learn, the less I know, :O) One more dichotomy of the horse.
Cheers. |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 10:39 am: | |
Thanks everyone!!!
Just so you all know. I live very close to the Hooved Animal Humane Society of America. They specialize in finding homes for horses and I get a
tax write-off for donating my horse. They are wonderful and they have rigorous requirements for people wanting to adopt. So, I know my horse will go to a good home, a really good home. So, I am relieved about that.
As far as breeds go, I tend to really like TBs because they are fast and athletic. I love going fast.
I've also met a few boarders at my barn who have TBs who weren't raced who've never had any problems either. I really think the flat racing gets them.
Like I said too, I had my horse vet checked, all the xrays and other tests as well. His legs are not really terrible, but the heaves/breathing problem is, and I have heard that TBs are prone to the heaves due to genetics. That , I think is my biggest fear, to have another asthmatic horse would just break me entirely.
I just want something sound and healthy. Thanks for all your suggestions again and I will let you all know what I purchase. Thanks, Liz. |
A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:28 pm: | |
Another addendum to OTT TB's [took a while to work that one out!]. If there were more tender-hearted racehorse breeders and trainers, there would be more sound TB's. Unfortunately, as the racehorse industry is all about money, there really aren't many of them, so TB's do get abused by being ridden hard from 2 years old, far too young, by being shoed incorrectly too often, by standing in for 23 hours a day with insufficient fibre, etc.etc.etc. Reared correctly, and looked after correctly, so their health and temperament is not affected, nothing can compare with them.
Alexa |
Dan4th
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 6:54 pm: | |
Hi,
I own 3 paints, 1 quarter & 1 TB. The TB by far has the best personality in the barn and is only ridden for trail/pleasure. She's the local "kid horse" is 10 years old and has never been raced. She also is the only one with feet problems. Farrier says she has thin hooves and bruises very easily even after "light" riding, therefore she wears shoes. So, I also would have to say TB are harder to keep. Good luck! |
barbara carry
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 1999 - 8:18 pm: | |
My two cents from experience as far as TB feet. My Tb's have front shoes but no back shoes. I ride them everywhere like that..over bridges, paved raods, gravel roads etc...I pull all their shoes for winter and keep front shoes on for the show season. Anyhow, my Tb's feet and the rest of them have given me no grief. I personally wouldn't consider having to put shoes on what sounds like a lovely horse a whole lotta grief. |
Eric L. Bainter
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 1999 - 5:51 pm: | |
Two more cents for Thoroughbreds (TBs).
My first real horse, mine for all of about a year now, is a formerly raced (but maybe not much) TB just turned 7. I myself have just turned 40, have ridden for about nine or ten years, but this is "my first horse".
On the minus side, the farrier notes he has thinwalled hooves compared to other horses, he threw front shoes at first, his front feet don't really match in shape/growth, he gave the farrier fits about his back feet, he alternates at being flighty and stubborn, he colicked (sp?) twice right after I brought him home, he finds innumerable ways to ding himself up, especially by crashing in highspeed turns in the pasture, and he eats three or four times as much as the Arab that boards with me and seems to hover at the borderline of too thin. And his overall construction (hide, bones,etc) doesn't seem as rugged as many other breeds of horses.
On the plus side, he has genuine, lively personality, he wins many unsolicited compliments for his handsomeness and vitality, he learns very quickly, converted to english from western tack without a wimper, we've gotten pretty good marks in dressage after starting that only four months ago, he really seems to like shows/clinics, he loves to trail ride, and he is teaching me loads about horse psychology and riding.
Some extra attention to his feed and worm program have seemed to make him colic free and filled him out a bit, some special attention by the farrier has resulted in no lost shoes for a long time, and some daily practice in "behaving with feet" has reduced risk to the farrier (plus I always add to the basic fee when the farrier has to work extra hard!). He seems to have learned on his own that crashing in a pasture with cactus is not fun. And I got him for only paying the previous owner's overdue boarding bill.
So I also think Chris M's remarks were dead-on, the ones about considering the management of the individual horse. If my goal were to join the USET at the next Olympics, I wouldn't have picked this horse, but since we (well, me anyway)are riding trails and dressage for fun, he's perfect. All his weirdo quirks and flighty/stubborn aspects make me pay attention - I must RIDE and train this horse every minute, no goofing off or getting sloppy; I suspect he is making me a better rider for it. Am looking forward to jumping him some time in the future.
elb |
Elizabeth Jopp
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 1999 - 1:49 pm: | |
HI Everyone:
Eric, I appreciate your comments on TBs. I owned two quarter horses (in a row) about 10 years ago. I rode western until just recently. The quarter horses were very hardy and durable animals. But, I agree, not as athletic (for jumping purposes) as the thoroughbred.
I love the TB I purchased, its just that I can never ride him because he has so many problems. THe biggest one being heaves, which has nothing to do with feet or legs or arthritis or anything lameness related.
The reason I am buying another horse and the reason I bought the TB I have now is to show at the jumpers. I don't live in a rural area and I board my horse. I rarely go on trail anymore. I will never join USET or go the Olympics either, BUT the main reason I am riding now is to jump.
The horse I have now is great, but very unreliable and now very out of shape. I've had maybe 15 riding lessons on him (I was hoping for two a week)and one, one-day horse show since I've owned him (I was hoping for 3 one-day shows), and I've spent hundreds of dollars on his heaves and other problems - in 8 months of ownership. This horse and I were just not meant to be.
I agree I love all the personality of TB and have always owned "hot" horses. (even the 1/4s were hot). I love that the TB is smart and responsive. But none of that matters if I can't ride it. I was really burned on this last horse and I don't want to get burned again. I realize that all of us are at risk because these are animals and not machines. But, I always try to avoid making the same mistake twice. If that means I should focus on a particular breed or stay away from a particular breed, I will.
Unfortunately, the only breed I really know about is the 1/4. Thats why I posted this message. I want to learn about other horse breeds and see what people think is the best jumper. And I have, I have learned a lot about the TB, more than I knew when I bought the horse I have now. So, any more info I can get would be great. Thanks, Liz. |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 1999 - 2:02 pm: | |
The best breeds for jumping [test of time] are the Euopean Warmbloods which are now also bred in this country, but which are still very expensive. These various strains as in Trakehners, Hannovarians, Holsteiners, etc. were especially bred for jumping and dressage also for a very very long time, so they are 'naturals.' Of course, not every such horse will be an Olympic candidate. Also, I believe that the training and rider makes up about 50% of the ability of a horse. You can mess up a good potential just as much as you can elevate a not so talented horse with good training and conditioning. It helps to have a good relationship with your horse that makes things "click" so to speak. For just an amateur jumper, a good TB or TBX [there are many different Xes around] should do nicely, and their purchase price is considerably lower than that of the pedigreed Warmbloods. But if you take your time and shop around with perhaps the help of an expert you can trust and afford, it should not be so hard to find what you really want/need. Better still, if you can train your own horse, you will have even a bigger choice among the less expensive horses.
TBs also make great jumpers. Try to find one that has not had its start at the track, but even so, I have seen tons of TBs off the track that turned out pussy cats in the show ring. All a matter of finding the right thing. As for soundness, I believe all breeds have their problesm, but some X-breds tend to be sounder than others. I like primarily an Appaloosa X. The Appaloosas, if they have a lot of foundation blood in them. come from very sound lines. But there are also sound TBs with very decent feet. I have several of those in my back yard [home bred/raised.]
So take your time and look around, and you will find a horse you can afford and that will be a good performer for you.
Good luck
Sabine |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 1999 - 3:28 pm: | |
Sabine
I must add to your comments - European warmbloods are indeed excellent and also move beautifully for dressage - but what about Irish Draughts and their TB crosses (eg Cruising, the world's most popular jumping stallion at the moment)? King of Diamonds and Clover Hill must be about two of the world's most famous jumping bloodlines and they are also both Irish Draughts.
Irish Draught crosses have fantastic temperaments for showjumping as well as very good jumps. Their legs and feet are strong, roomy and incredibly sound. They also do very well as a breed in eventing. There are several Irish Draught association websites and the Irish Horse Board will also help with information on bloodlines and their success rates (Tel +353 1 607 2816).
I realise American and Canadian users of this site may not have seen many of these type of horses (or the European warmbloods). Of course my judgement is entirely unaffected by owning a Cavalier (Holstein German warmblood) x Irish Draught mare... I just wish she had a bit more Draught in her temperament!
All the best
Imogen |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 1999 - 8:04 pm: | |
Hello Imogen:
Where are you at? England or Ireland?
Yes, of course, the Irish Draft crossed with TBs make good jumpers and there are quite a few stallions in the U.S. As far as I know though, they are not technically called "Warmbloods," although they may be by definition. A European Warmblood is a consolidated breed, meaning that their stud book is pretty closed to outside blood now, except for the Oldenburg registry [I'm not 100% sure]. Every stallion and mare has to be approved before getting into the breeding program, and that goes for the TBs, Arabs, Anglo-Arbas, and other Warmbloods that may seek registration with any of the particlar breeds.
And by the way, Irish TBs have a very good reputation for being strong and durable. Must have to do with the nutritious soils they grow up on as well as the rough terrain they are raised on.
Sabine |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 1999 - 3:00 pm: | |
Sorry Sabine - maybe I confused you. The horse's sire was a Holstein puissance stallion that was imported to Ireland and then registered here as an approved stallion with the Irish Horse Board, but the dam was Irish TB x Irish draught.
All the best
Imogen (from Cork) |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 1999 - 6:01 pm: | |
Imogen:
Sorry, I am not quite sure in what way you might have confused me. Can you enlighten an old brain a bit. Thanks, :-).
In reference to jumpers I must admit I'm tapping a bit in the dark these days, but essentially, most activities in the U.S. area are on the North-East coast, Florida [winter circuit], and California, but you can't trust me on that. The trouble with jumpers is that it's not much of a sport for the true amateur because it is potentially dangerous and not easy to master as opposed to dressage [I mean average rider here who makes up the brunt of the industry]. Jumpers are often ridden by professionals who don't own the horses which you don't see that much in other disciplines, with, of course, the exception of the race horse which is ridden by a jockey. I have no idea how this works in Europe. I just have been away for too long, and so much has changed and been internationalized. Take ownership or amateur status, for example. Talking about confusion. Riders can change their nationality like a T-shirt. So one year this person [dressage] rides for Germany, the next year for England or France..... I'm not sure this makes any sense at all. I happen to be a very strong believer also in that people who ride in the Olympics should be required to ride horses that were bred, raised, and trained in their homeland whethe they ride their own horse or someone else's. Otherwise, the Olympics become a game of individuals and can no longer represent their country.
What do you think? Maybe my view is simply that of an outdated human model, LOL.....
Do you have some pictures of some of those Irish Draft and Xes?
Greetings over the pond
from
Sabine |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 26, 1999 - 4:40 pm: | |
Hi Sabine
I will try and find you some nice pictures from the Irish Horse Board (Dr O, is there a place to upload pictures?)
I agree with you about nationality of competitors (unfortunately we seem to have to export all our showjumping people to the continent of Europe because the travelling is too great for both horses and people to compete internationally from Ireland. I can attest to this having seen the showjumpers leave Cork airport a couple of weeks back after Millstreet show on the crankiest, noisiest DHL cargo plane left on this earth. Yet they were delivered to the airport in beautiful new Coolmore Stud lorries... And the whole process is subsidised by our government to bring competitors and international buyers in to Ireland!)
Back to international competing horses. There is a problem, isn't there, in that the reason why a stallion is moved from one country to another is usually an attempt to improve the local horses. Isn't that why one of the reasons why there is a process of stallion approval through the various national horse boards? I am not talking here about traditional native breeds like the Irish draught, more about thoroughbred registers and stud books. So it's hard to see how you could have competition horses which would have a pedigree that was purely from the country of origin - most are going to have a foreign forebear of some description in their passport if they are reasonably well bred.
All the best
Imogen |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Friday, Nov 26, 1999 - 5:47 pm: | |
Hello Imogen:
Thank you for clueing me in on some horse situations. I understand that, particularly with our modern technology, it is easier to transport horses long distances and in larger numbers. The Warmblood breed in particular appears to become more and more global. I understand the imporvement practices with Germany having often had great success with French TB stallions, Ramirez being a very prominent one or Cor de la Bruyere. And yes, no one seems to complain, LOL, but on the other hand, the various regions were very proud of producing their individual strains of Warmbloods, and each 'breed' seemed to have had their own characteristics. When I was young and lived in Germany, I could, with pretty high accuracy, tell whether a given horse was a a Hannoverian, a Holsteiner, or a Trakehner, just to name the major strains. ] I particularly like the Westfalen today; he seems of smaller statue, but very balanced, yet with good substance.] The development of American-bred Warmbloods [not to be confused with American Warmbloods]is still hampered by prejudices and the lack of really good breeding stock. For one thing, we seem to use our TBs as broodmares whereas in Europe, the way I understand it, the broodmares were/are rarely TB mares, but Warmblood and indigineous types. In fact, for the longest time, TBs weren't even considered riding horses but race horses. The development was different for the Irish and English TB because of the popularity of the hunting sport from which the modern hunter was developed. In fact, unless I am mistaken, there is such a breed/strain as the English Hunter.
Coming back to the national 'thing,' I understand that some of the ongoings are due to money matters, meaning that Warmblood breeders are much greater in numbers and the governement no longer plays the same guarantor job it once used to do when so many of these horses were also bred for the military. Times change, of course, but I still feel that it would perhaps be a good idea to choose a horse from amidst the homebreds for such International competition as the Olympics. These practices are, of course, futile today when one realizes that most other 'tools' are made every which way. You buy a car today for competition, and you may have a model the parts of which come from many different countries. Guess that's the way it is today. It's just that I ask myself why we still attribute so much importance to the Olympics as a 'world-wide, national' competition when it really is very confusing, to say the least. I understand that one of the top hockey players are from Russia and play in American teams.....So then, the Olympics should do away with the national thing and go only with the individual. What, for example, would anyone experience hearing a National Anthem, but this person isn't even a citizen of that country? Things sure has changed as have the rules about amateur status. At least in this country. Dont' know about Ireland.
Sabine |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 1999 - 11:19 am: | |
Sabine
What a coincidence! Cor de la Bruyere is listed in my mare's passport - can't remember if it's her grandad or great grandad. So a French stallion Cor de la Bruyere was used to improve the Holsteiner breed, and then the resulting Holstein stallion Cavalier Royale was imported to Ireland to improve our jumping stock. Exactly! Global warmbloods.
And you're right, it's absolutely vital to keep the indigenous strains going in the mares, and not to be constantly producing near thoroughbreds instead. Indigenous mare + quality stallion = quality horse in my book.
However, I'm not sure there is such a breed as hunter - I think that's more the use the horse is put to. Our hunters in Ireland are either Irish draught or Irish draught x TB usually.
Going back to the human competitors, Mrs Gisela Holstein (German international dressage judge living in Ireland for many years) has a son Eric who has been on the Irish showjumping team, and her daughter Heike competes for Ireland in dressage. I think that's OK - after all they grew up here!
All the best
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 1999 - 2:01 pm: | |
Concerning images, you can upload any image not greater than 40K. See the formatting information under the Help Topic on the navigation frame on the left of your screen.
DrO |
Sabine B. Marino
| | Posted on Saturday, Nov 27, 1999 - 4:27 pm: | |
Hello Imogen:
Yes, I agree. If someone grows up in a particular country, they quasi are natives, just as it is in America. In fact, anybody born on the American soil is automatically entitled to the American citizenship, but not dual citizen ship is allowed. When I decided to become a 'naturalized' citizen after my daughter [American] was born, I had to abdicate [!] my German nationality. For me, it was merely a matter of practicality, since I was already 25 and too old to be considered a native. A Warmblood born in Hannover is a Hannoveraner, I suppose. Same principle. However, I still like to have credit given where credit is due, and the fact is that a lot of excellent Fench stallions were outstanding sires [see also Alme the fabulous jumper].
I have a warmblood too. He is 'pure' American, born here and of long term American ancestors. Well, so people tell me he's not 'really' a Warmblood, LOL. ATTILA is a WB type and also mover, and he is 1/4 Percheron and 3/4 QH with his dam having no TBs up close. This is a beautiful and unique, old fashion WB type with tons of bone, great feat [no feathers]. He looks very much like a stud, but is as gentle as a lamb and very very people oriented. I have bred him to a TB, a TB/Appaloosa X, and an Appendix [second grade QH because her dam was a TB and I didn't show her, so she could not get her merits.]. The offspring are wonderful sportshorses. Of course, there is no ambition on my part to raise a sire prospect because his type is no longer sought after in this country, but I love him, and his kids are lighter, just right to my taste. His head, although a bit big from the Percheron grandsire, is very attractive with beautiful eyes,and so far, only one of his babies has a bit of a Roman nose, but she is beautiful otherwise. She is a dun and might turn her sire's dark color. Eventually, she could be a very suitable X for either a TB or a WB, but I wouldn't go back to QH. ATTILA is a black grula [mouse grey with no white hair].
Oh, you can see him and some of his young babies at this web page:
http://www/stallionstation.com/deercreekmeadows/
He is also a very nice jumper, but we haven't done too much with him. My friend was going to get him going, but she hurt her knee really badly and had already 2 operations, so that leaves us a bit stranded. We have not bred him to any outside mares, but he's earning his own keep with just being a fun horse and so easy! A few foals a year will sell quite easily as fun projects.
Would be interesting though to breed her to a too refined WB mare with great movements. Hard to find, I would imagine.
Sabine |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:00 pm: | |
Hi Sabine
I tried the URL but for some reason could not get through from Ireland.
I also found you some pictures but I cannot get the image upload function to work - it does not request the picture so that you can tell it where to upload from. Dr O, I did follow the instructions... any suggestions?
Here's an example of what I tried - this is a fairly typical of what you really see (as opposed to the stuff at the studs) though it's got a slightly weak neck for a draught
All the best
Imogen |
Imogen Bertin
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:04 pm: | |
Oops. It worked that time. Not sure why. Here goes again. This is an ID mare called Mrs Thatcher (!)
And this is my mare displaying what happens when you get 1/8 Irish draught crossed with 1/8 Cor de la Bruyere and various Irish TBs and Holsteiners in between... (cue the EU anthem, Schiller's Ode to Joy as it's obviously a multinational effort)
Bye for now
Imogen |
A.F.M. Hyde-Clarke
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 3, 1999 - 3:14 pm: | |
A lovely mare, Imogen. It's so nice to see pictures of people's horses. |
TRACEY LOMAX
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 7, 2000 - 7:41 am: | |
Back to the original discussion : The best jumper? Irish Draught x Thoroughbred : no doubt about it!! |
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