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Discussion on Spooky, Excitable Horse
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Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 135
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |   |
My 5 yr old QH gelding has been increasingly excitable over the last six to eight months. At first, it seemed like a respect issue so I began working through Clinton Anderson's "Respect" series. My horse seemed to pick up the lessons quite easily and it did improve his manners. I spend a lot of time on ground work with him. I am comfortable there and we have a good bond.
Last winter, I had some episodes while riding him in the indoor arena where he became very spooky of nearly anything out of place. He spooked from other horses getting near him. He made me feel afraid because he was out of my control, and at first I panicked. Gradually, I have tried to learn proper ways of handling this behavior such as one-rein stops, disengaging the hindquarters, and putting him to work when he gets distracted. I have also worked on reducing my own fearfulness and becoming more confident. Yet, his anxiety level is still "up", just as it was last winter. For example, last month in the outdoor arena, we practiced staying relaxed, did many walk/ halt transitions, then walk/ trot transitions, all while staying very relaxed. Then he walked close to a ground pole, which he has seen all his life, and stepped on it which caused it to fall on his flank. He spooked and I panicked as I started losing my balance. I grabbed the reins and he threw his head up, and I was on the ground. Yes, I know that was the WRONG thing to do. So I got back on, and he started twisting around purposely figuring he could get me off. This time, I stayed calm and grabbed the saddle with one hand, and did a one-rein stop with the other. I rode through his little fit and we both calmed down and resumed our ride. I even ended that ride feeling pretty good that I had "won".
However, after that incident, he was more spooky than ever. He spooked when I took his saddle off, and was terrified of being tied. So I went back to the ground work. I taught him to ground tie, then did a lot of desensitizing with the saddle blanket and saddle. Gradually, he let me saddle him while being ground tied.
Then last night, he was in this spooky, jumpy way and after I lunged him I thought he had calmed down. Not so I guess. I got on him and he walked away, which I have taught him not to do, so I used the one-rein stop. The moment I let up on the reins, he took one look ahead and decided to get the heck out of there, and took off full-bolt straight through a vinyl fence! I did not pull on the reins, I grabbed the saddle and tried to get him to stop, but no way. As he plowed through the fence, he twisted around and I flew off. I am sore today, but worse, I am now very afraid to ride him. I love him to pieces and have put years of work into him, but I keep thinking I must be in over my head.
Why does he seem so spooky all the time? I look at all the other horses and riders in the stable and they seem so calm and good natured. Assuming I can get over my own fear, how can I get him to stop doing this? It kills me to think of selling him, because I truly believe he is a good horse. He never used to be so excitable, could this be caused by something external? Is it his age? What course of action would you take, if this were your horse? |
Fran C
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 584
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 1:07 pm: | |
Linda,
I have one thought and I don't know if it has any merit, but have you had his eyes checked? I'm wondering if a vision problem isn't leading to the spookiness.
Actually, I have a few other thoughts - have you put anyone else on him? I wonder how he'd react to another rider. He's likely picking up on your tension, even when you are unaware of it. Do you have a trainer you can work with that can observe what you are doing together? How about saddle fit? Have you checked to make sure there is nothing protruding from the bottom of the saddle that is causing him discomfort. Have you had a vet out to do a full exam to make sure he isn't sore somewhere?
Having ruled all this out and if he continues to be so reactive, you may have to face the fact that he's not the horse for you. It would be a terribly difficult decision, but please consider your own safety and that of your horse. It would be so sad if either of you got hurt or if this horse destroyed your confidence.
Please be careful! |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 369
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hi Linda, I feel your pain, my now 9yr. old gelding was like that up until he was 6. My trainer always told me it was me, not him. (I didn't agree). Well to be truthful NOW it was 99% me. That horse could terrify me and he KNEW it. I would tense when ever he seemed distracted. I love this horse to pieces, raised him from a baby. He had impecable ground manners, but to ride him... Our turning point when he was 6 was when I decided it was him or me, but one of us was going to (win) this battle. After a few go arounds and quite a few A$$ whippings, he decided I WAS the boss. I HAVE to ride him with confidence and leadership or he will revert. He was not spooky, he just knew he could shake my confidence and scare me, when he did do his spooking and bolting. (not anymore) and all the bad behaviour has left. If it is not physical, I highly suggest you get a good trainer to help you work thru the confidence issue, it really helps. I am just a trail rider, but I had a trainer help me for 2 mos. and my what a difference. You must ride him, not the trainer. I always tried to get my trainer to ride him and he said NO, YOU have the problem with him, not ME. Which was true the trainer could make that horse do anything and he never fussed at all. This horse of mine taught me so much about riding I am now grateful for his earlier antics (believe it or not). Good luck and get yourself a good trainer, it is worth every penny. Also wanted to add are you grabbing his mouth out of nervousness? That was one of my big mistakes, the more I pulled the worse he got. I started riding him in a sidepull until I felt comfortable enough to bit him and not hang on his mouth. That made him improve 80% by itself. |
Aileen
Member
Username: Sunny66
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 3:47 pm: | |
Sounds like my horse! His issue was/is definitely pain.
After checking all the things that Fran suggested, check his diet... if he gets sweet feed you may want to take him off it. Some horses can't tolerate it... also, could he be muscle sore? How much are you working him? Increased work lately?
You may also consider ulcer medication, (I know of quite a few horses that came around once on ulcer medication)
and if that doesn't help either, go with Diane's suggestion 
Just my two cents and please take it as such! |
Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 670
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 5:04 pm: | |
You might consider searching for the post: "need help training timid horse." I posted asking for help with similiar issues.
I have a 4 year old that sounds like your horse. Only I haven't rode him yet. Between his silliness, and the fact that I don't really have a saddle that fits him as well as I would like, I have put him up for sale.
I've put more time in him than my other 3 combined, and we just are not progressing. Don't know if it's him or me, but we are not clicking.
I just got a new saddle that fits another 4 year old I am starting, and 2nd day we are walking, trotting and stopping under saddle.
The point is, are you enjoying the challenge this guy is presenting you with?
Definately check out the pain issues, vision, and teeth. And have some one else ride him also and then decide what you want to do with him.
And consider maybe he is just overwhelmed; have you been asking many new things of him? Or one new thing after another? Can you ride him at just a walk? Just walk and relax for the next as many days as it takes. Don't get worried about any thing he looks at??
Rereading your post, I am thinking his mouth may be sore. He seems to really want to avoid having you on him, and a horse will run away from pain.
Can you ride him with the halter and do one rein stops?
Does he lunge o.k., respecting the halter?
What if he lunge him, with the line directly on the bit on yourside? (going the left, connect the line to the left D or ring of snaffle) Is he good then? Or trying to run away, a sign of mouth pain. You might want to use another line on his halter also, in case he really freaks out. Don't want him running away and now stepping on the line connected to the bit.
Lots of things off the top of my head......take what you will.
And: STAY SAFE!!! |
Sara Tardanico
Member
Username: Starda01
Post Number: 14
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 7:16 pm: | |
Hi Linda,
My horse is 16yrs old and he does some of what you describe. In fact, its probably the reason I have him, as he had been bought as a school horse and promptly did his shying and dumped some of the students. The students didn't have the experience to stay calm and handle it. That I could stay calm is probably a tribute to all the times a horse got away and dumped me. Even now, he still spooks, but I'm right there and he knows he's not going to get away. In fact, I think on some days, if he's bored, he'll invent something to spook over.
I think that riding is a reciprocal experience for horse and rider. Every time you ride, your horse learns something about you, and you about him. I think your horse may have got your number. I have known of some horse and rider combinations that were like that.
Having said all that, physical pain or discomfort should not be put out of the question. Eliminating those causes will help you narrow it down. I think sometimes my horse has poorer eyesight on his left side, for example, bc that is the side on which he's most likely to be startled.
You may want to keep track of time of day, wind conditions, and so forth, and see if you can link any of it to his behavior. Lead him up to things that spook him, and let him have a good look. Above all, show him that you aren't afraid. Let him act like an idiot but don't let him get away from the object, until he calms down. When you are riding, and he spooks, sit deep and turn his head so all he can do is turn in a circle. Use your leg pressure to hold him steady until he calms down. Don't say "'Good boy" when you get past that scarey object, just keep on going, as if nothing happened, and there is nothing more to be made of it. Keep his mind on his business. He's waiting for and responding to signals from you, so if you tense up when he starts to spook, its telling him that there is indeed something to be afraid of.
Nowadays, I have found that there are certain things that my horse will just not be comfortable around. Where we were stabled there was a field across the street that had some cows in it, and we could never get near that side of the property that he didn't find something to shy about. I could ride him through there a hundred times, and a hundred times he'd find something to shy about. Nevertheless, I did not shrink from making him go by those cows. I just sat and held him there until he calmed down and went forward. Even if I had to get off and walk him through it.
You'll know you have his respect and attention when he goes past something that frightens him bc you are asking him to go.
In the meantime, wear your helmet!
Sara |
Sara Tardanico
Member
Username: Starda01
Post Number: 15
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 7:21 pm: | |
Something else someone mentioned and I'd like to second the notion, is to look at his diet. Is he getting a lot of sweetfeed, or other higher energy foods? It can make a difference. |
Kthorse
Member
Username: Kthorse
Post Number: 590
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 8:57 pm: | |
Is he spooky everywhere?
Some horses are just naturaly that way. Some great advise given to me was to sing, stop and give a snack that would get his mind off the scary thing. deep breathing, work him in circles around the scary thing back up everytime he acted scared. I even took a tape recorder hooked to my saddle blasting music. A horse that spooks is scary. Especially if they bolt. I think a spooky horse is the hardest to ride. Even if you get most of it out of him he probably will always spook the trick is to get him to spook in place.
The thing you said was he never used to be like this. Makes me wonder. Is something hurting him? Horses look to us to be the leader. Maybe because you are nervous now he doesnt know if he can trust you from the scary thing. There could be so many reasons. Pain ,naughtiness, fear, trust issues too much feed (energy). I agree with everyone. It is dangerous and please be safe. I hope you find the answer. |
Debbie Green
Member
Username: Green007
Post Number: 256
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 9:05 am: | |
Hi Linda,
Don't forget to consider obvious things, too. I once had a horse under my care that spooked and bolted dangerously with her 14 year old owner. The girl had been successfully riding the horse for months until one fateful day. The horse continued to bolt with her on an increasingly regular basis, so we pulled her off the horse until I could ride it (I couldn't do it at the time as I was 5 months pregnant and didn't want to take the risk).
When I finally did ride the horse, she was fine. I racked my brains trying to think of why the horse had spooked and bolted so badly with this girl who was actually quite a soft and talented rider. I finally found out one rainy day when the horse did it with me. There was nothing I could do to stop the horse. I had to run her head first into a wall at the end of a very long, fast and furious run back to the barn so I could do a safe emergency dismount. No pulley rein, circle, voice, leaning back, half halting, nothing but nothing was going to stop this horse.
It turned out that this horse did not like the "swishy" sound that my raincoat had made. Thats all it ever was. When I thought back to the first time the horse had bolted with the girl, sure enough, it was the first truly cold day of winter and the girl had her winter coat on. When the girl moved, the coat swished, the horse bolted. The faster the horse bolted, the more noise the coat made. It always ended badly!
I tried sacking the mare out to swishy things, tried longing her with coats and crinkly paper tied to the saddle. She never, ever got over it. By then, the girl was too afraid of the horse so we found her a new one to ride that she adored. We sold the horse to someone with full disclosure of the anxiety disorder, and that horse went on to be an excellent upper level event horse for someone who knew not to wear anything krinkly while riding her. It actually helped her get over some of the more scarey cross country jumps because if you tilted "just so" while approaching a jump, the cross country pinney would flap and spook her right on up and over!
Try to see what kinds of things set your horse off, and then put a trainer on the horse and see if those things still set your horse off. That way you can see if it is the horse, or you.
If it turns out to be you, your choices are to take a lot of riding lessons in hopes that it will get better, or to sell the horse and get one that is more in touch with you.
Horse/human relationships are about chemistry, just like a good marriage. Most folks that are more experienced get along with a greater variety of horses simply because they have that experience. However, even experienced riders can be totally humbled by a horse. I personally get along with most horses, but have found plenty of horses out there that I have never, ever been able to get along with. Some of these horses go on to do wonderful things with riders that are less experienced than I am, but those horses just didn't click with me. It happens!
The short answer is, do everything you can to work it out with this horse, but put a realistic time limit on it. If it doesn't work out and you have to sell him to someone who he clicks with better while you find yourself a new dancing partner, it is not the end of the world. It happens to everyone. You are in good company! |
Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 672
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 9:24 am: | |
Very well said Debbie. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 344
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 9:25 am: | |
Linda,
1. Kill the sweet feed. I know you board, but ask if is diet can be all hay for now.
2. Your new problems are not all under saddle from what I am reading so it tends to make me want to rule out saddle discomfort (check it out anyway, to be sure).
3. Consider the horse's lifestyle. Is he stalled a majority of the time? Do you ever ride outside the ring? I ask because some horses can get absolutely stir crazy with their controlled, mostly indoor lives.
I have one horse that can be spooky if I only ride her on the familiar loop around home, but take her to a new trail and she concentrates and does less "goofing around spooks." So with her, I know she is looking for something to spook at just to keep things interesting. Boredom is bad.
As for riding all this out and showing who is in charge--I think it depends. How well do you know this horse's reactions? If I know a horse's parameters of behavior when it is upset I can do that, but if you don't know the extent he will go to, I would be very careful without the guidance of a good trainer.
Going through the fence with you is pretty scarey! I'm not sure I would ride again, either, without professional help. If he is showing a lack of self-preservation, he is not going to be concerned about keeping you safe.
He is young. How long have you had him? How long after you got him did things start? Is he getting enough consistent work to keep him sharp? It sounds like you are a good rider, but we sometimes communicate things to the horse that we are unaware of.
I vote for a trainer to help you for a while an to evaluate the situation before you get yourself hurt.
Good luck,
Erika |
Catherine McCourt
Member
Username: Kstud
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 10:06 am: | |
Hi Linda,
I agree with Erika, I think that once a horse is prepared to crash through a fence with no regard for his or your safety then he cannot be trusted. Unless something obvious turns up that you can fix I would advise not riding the horse again as I do not think that you will be able to relax on him and trust him and he will pick up on that. A similar thing happened to me this year, I bought a lovely young horse who was a gentleman to hack out and never spooked no matter what and would ride in company first or last happily, however he would tense up in a school. For months I worked mostly in the fields or on the roads and only rode in the school once or twice a week and whilst he was not very forward in the school he gave me no reason to worry. One day out of the blue he bolted with me in the school and I could not stop him, I am a very experienced rider and have been bolted with before but this was different, it only ended when he crashed into the fence and catapulted me over leaving me black and blue. He continued to be fine ridden elsewhere but like your horse began to become very nervous about being bridled and saddled. I had all the usual checks done, saddle was perfect, teeth fine, bit gentle, 100% sound to vet and chiropractor, just no apparent reason. I thought he may have had a bad experience in a previous home but a friend of mine had broken and owned him first and swore he had been easy and there was no problems. I believed him, by the way, as he is very gentle with horses and this horse was otherwise so calm. My husband, who is a trainer thought the horse might be picking up something from me so he rode him ( normally horses go way better for him, hate that!) but he bolted with him too, husband being stronger got him into a canter circle and I thought the horse was settling when without warning he did exactly what Lindas horse did and galloped straight through 6ft arena fencing. Husband was badly thrown and broke 6 ribs and horse was only cut a little. After that the horse got progressively difficult to ride everywhere so at great expense I sent him to a specialist in difficult horses. After 3 months he said that he was ok again on the roads and fields but could not be ridden in a school. I did not want to ride him again, neither did my husband and I would not sell him in case someone got hurt and so I had him put down even though he was only 5. I did a post mortem out of curiosity and he had a brain lesion. It was unclear whether it was a tumour or whether he had had a brain haemorrhage and the lesion had become hardened over time on gross PM but I did not send it for histopath. as it was irrelevant. The horse was never going to be right and he could have killed someone, there was no way of diagnosing it beforehand but I was glad I had put him down. It was a difficult decision to do to a healthy horse and I rationalised it at the time by balancing what might happen to someone else or the bad homes he might end up in. Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but I truly believe that when a horse crosses the self protection boundary then there is something MAJOR wrong.
Catherine |
Kthorse
Member
Username: Kthorse
Post Number: 594
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 10:25 am: | |
I agree If you dont know when or why this happens and if you cant stop it. Dont ride him |
Sharon
Member
Username: Shanson
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 11:44 am: | |
If I were you, I would stop riding this horse and get some help from a professional trainer who can assess you and this horse. A good trainer can advise you on feeding changes, tack fit, but more importantly, on your horse's temperament and training and your ability to effectively address these issues. A good trainer will be cheaper than hospital bills when this guy really hurts you. Sorry to be so blunt, but I've been in your position and the only way forward was to get experienced help. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: Amara
Post Number: 163
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 1:30 pm: | |
i have a horse who was actually very similar to this, from what i've been told of his history.. he was rideable as a youngster and did fairly well.. over time he started to get worse and worse-like yours, becoming difficult to manage on the ground-very spooky- and eventually nearly unmanageanle and completely unrideable... his last trainer woke up 3 days later after he got done with her...
what it simply came down to was a complete lack of pressure tolerance... it was mentioned before, but with horses like this you have to go past what we think are obvious factors in getting him "to relax" anad get a whole lot deeper into his mindset... he is probably on overdrive all the time.. as mentioned, you should definately cut all grain out of his diet, even if he drops a few pounds...
in my experience this is not a simple fix if you want to get it right... it will involve lots of work understanding his central nervous system, and eliciting sympathetic and parasympathetic responses... he needs to learn to come down in a total body experience, not just in certain situations... while it may seem like there are certain things that he is doing well, or doing better with again, he's not... he's coping, but the explosion is there... he obviously doesnt know how to cope well, and once he goes down this route, teaching him coping mechanisms is not the way to go...
definately a whole lot of time and energy need to get put into this horse... to me they are actually the best type...
btw-my horse that was unmanageable and unrideable-will now follow me without a rope/halter at walk or trot (i cant run fast enough to keep up with his canter), doesnt spook, and is one of the best horses i've ever ridden.. so soft, so relaxed, i ride him on loose rein with halter and lead rope, or bridle if i choose... he was one step away from dog food and had been labeled rogue/killer... he was a complete loony when i got him and it took 5 hrs the first time just to get next to him... |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
Thank you everyone for your great responses. This whole thing has me so upset and it helps to have feedback from people with experience.
The diet issue did come up at the boarding stable and they are going to change his feed from sweet feed to Dynasty. They are also going to greatly reduce the amount. Personally, I wanted them to stop the grain/ concentrate entirely since he is on excellent pasture all day. He is in very fit condition (a 6 on Dr. O's scale), and does not need supplementation. However, they tell me you can't quit all the grain so suddenly.
I plan on having the vet check his eyes. I did some reading in the articles and my gut feeling is there isn't any sort of eye disease happening, but I will look into it.
My saddle is 1 1/2 years old, a Tucker, and sits beautifully on him. I see no signs of uneven sweat stains, no areas that are being rubbed, and nothing pokes out of it. He has been ridden in this saddle since I got it without any problems before. He has grown a bit and broadened in his shoulders, but if anything the saddle seems to sit better.
His workload . . . I ride him twice a week after work for about an hour. That is riding time, I also do groundwork each time before riding and with grooming probably spend 2 hours with him. Lately, it has been unbearably hot so I only lunged him for 2 weeks. Then I went out last week and rode him in the indoor and that went well. The day he bolted was our first time back in the outdoor arena in three weeks. (It was also the first cool day in weeks.) Does he seem overwhelmed? Maybe HE thinks so, but I know many of you spend a whole lot more time working your horses than that. His life is pretty cushy, if you ask me.
Last winter, when many of these issues began I was taking beginner dressage lessons. Previously, I had always used natural horsemanship training with him. Something about holding his head that way, it just didn't sit well. I just don't think he was ready for it, nor was I educated enough to teach him it. I ended the lessons, but started teaching him to drop his head using the NH methods, and he really seemed to take to it. That's the thing with this guy, he is smart and he learns well. Maybe too well. I think Sara hit it when she said he's got my number. He has figured out he can get me off and is trying every trick to do just that.
Our biggest problem, I am afraid to say, is that we are both greenies. He is my first horse, and I got him three years ago green broke after 30 days in saddle. Before that, I took lessons and leased a horse, but I have no experience with a youngster. Worst of all, I am a pretty passive person by nature and find it hard to be assertive with him. After thinking back on the bolting incident, I realized there was one moment before he ran, where I knew something was getting out of control. Rather than use my knowledge of what to do, I think "Uh Oh", and that moment of hesitation is all he needs.
I have given much thought to selling him, and this is not an easy idea for me. I always adopt animals for life. I don't give up easily either, but I have to think of safety. However, the market right now in this area is terrible for selling, and I would like to give the change in diet a chance. I also think I'd like to try finding a good trainer to work with him. I'm not sure if I will be able to overcome my fear, and that is a huge issue. It would be good for both of us to have a change, so I will look into renting a horse for myself to help me gain confidence. For Cutter, I will see if a friend at the boarding stable will give him a go for awhile. She has a lot more experience than I.
In the meantime, I am not giving up on him either. I will continue to do ground work and try to regain some of his trust. I will take things slow and see where we get.
You people are so good to turn to in a crisis. You have helped me see the truth and see the direction I need to take. I have never been a risk-taking type of person. After the day I was thrown, I drove home and saw someone in a Microlight plane above my head. My first thought was "who would want to do that???", and then I laughed because I knew. He loves flying just like I love riding horses. The love is stronger than the fear.
Happy trails,
Linda |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 4:02 pm: | |
Well, Linda, you have made a healthy, energetic horse with good, playful spirit. Congratulations, honestly.
Now we need to find a way to put his talents to good use. If we don't, he'll be using them as he pleases to exercise himself whether you're on his back or not, he'll be teaching himself his own lessons and develop a head of his own about things, which is not what we want. Not because horses are evil and they will plan our destruction, they don't do that, but because judging and deciding on their own will frequently bring them in a totally confusing situation, where they eventually panic and freak out completely.
The first thing we teach a horse is to put his head down, relax and concentrate on the rider. It's the "shut up and relax" cue.
Have a look on this thread, it describes how:
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/76063.html
Whenever he brings his head up for whatever reason, insist that he puts it down immediately.
One important note : We work in trot. Only!
We do not work in walk. Walk, for now, is to relax. Do not work in halt. Halt, for now, means end of work or a break of 30 sec minimum in order to re-adjust things. Of course, we will walk and we will halt. But we will not work within these gaits. From halt, the horse should only move calmly into walk. We do not prepare him for the transition, we do not put him on the bit in halt, we do not hone his reflexes from halt. Same with walking. We only walk calmly and energetically forward on a loose rein. We do not walk on the bit, we do not prepare the horse for a crisp transition into trot, we do not ask for any heightened reflexes in walk.
Working on correct, crisp transitions sharpens a horse's reflexes. You do not want to do that right now. Make the transitions very smooth and gradual and far between. Continuous transitions from one gait to the other do not allow the horse enough time to relax. They make him tense in anticipation of yet another transition and they may get on his nerves. And they teach him that you like this transition thing very much, that you want him to be on high alert all the time. So that's what he does.
In trot, insist that he moves with a low head in the exact tempo you dictate. The idea is that he can spook, he can veer off the track, but he should not bring his head up and stiffen his back, neither should he slow down or speed up. Tempo!
Once tempo is established, you must, of course, teach him that he must go exactly where you tell him. By leg pressure, that is. If he veers off the desired track, apply leg to bring him back. Do not allow him to speed up from unilateral leg, and do not turn him towards the desired track by means of the reins. Insist that he yields to your leg. Teach him to go to the wall from your inside leg while his tempo remains unchanged.
This is the foundation of all training. Steady tempo and respect to your leg in trot. It is simple, it is easy and should be absolutely perfected before one attempts anything else. All other exercises and activities, correct contact, transitions, collection, roping, horse archery, vaulting, swimming, horsebackgammon, trail riding or whatever else you like to do later on depends on this. One should not confuse the horse with other exercises until the basics are rock solid. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 4:14 pm: | |
On more note, if it was his first day outside after three weeks in the closed arena and this coincided with the first cool day in weeks, you should have known to turn him out for a half hour before climbing aboard, you should have smelled the bucks in the air, so to say.
Keeping a level head in a day like this may be a bit much to ask from a healthy 5yo. |
Fran C
Member
Username: Canter
Post Number: 589
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 4:16 pm: | |
Linda, many people above suggested you find a trainer for help. Please allow me to make one more suggestion: watch several trainers in action first before you choose one. You need to find someone that is sensitive enough to your fears without belittling you or embarrassing you. Yet, you need someone who will push you, ever so gently, slightly out of your comfort zone so that you regain your confidence and grow your skills. I've seen a few trainers verbally abuse their students...I can't imagine why anyone would put up with/pay for that
Right now your are probably very frustrated and sad about this situation - you love the horse but he's making things difficult. The last thing you need is a trainer that makes things more difficult/stressful for you & your horse. That sets you both up for a potential disaster. Talk to other adult riders (many of us recognize our mortality much more than kids & share many of the same concerns) for some recommendations.
Good luck! |
Debbie Green
Member
Username: Green007
Post Number: 257
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 4:25 pm: | |
Christos,
Horsebackgammon?!?!?!?
I love it! Can we play that at Brushy Creek? What are the rules?!?!? I envision a cross between the living chess scene in the Harry Potter movie and Broomstick Polo. All while holding a glass of tawny port.
 |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 370
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 5:29 pm: | |
Linda I have to agree with christos about the trotting and even tempo. Horses like rythmic movements. It helped my evil one quite a bit. When my horse is looking a little too happy, before we go out on trail we do alot of trotting in the arena. It seems to get his brain working and focused. I also have to agree with Fran as far as trainers. The one I used was a 3 day event trainer (I work for him) he gives many clinics around the country, He told me it is hard for him, and alot of trainers to give lessons to fearful beginners, because he forgot what it was like to feel that way. They get impatient and don't understand why we are scared. There is another trainer and friend I know and if I had taken lessons from him that horse woulda killed me. I had my horse so worked up that he was starting to rear, I went to my (boss)trainer in tears and said I couldn't take it anymore. He knew I loved that horse + he said he didn't want me hurt cuz' I ran the barn for him hehehe. As Christos said the foundation of our training was trot and bend. The trainer said I need to keep his mind busy and RELAX MY HIP AND SOFTEN. Those words still resound thru me when evil boy gets a little goofy. It took me a good long time to believe relax my hip and soften would help anything. Evil boy steadily got better (once I did) but still has that personality, which I love NOW. I am not a good rider per se, but he and I understand each other. Along the way I became the leader. The trainer once told me which still sticks in my head, I HAVE to trust him (the horse). Don't punish for what he might do. Write him a book and have him read it. Don't let him write it. My friends still can't believe he is the same horse from years ago. No one I know will ride him. That's how bad he WAS. Only my trainer and I have rode him in 9 yrs. hehhe. Sorry for the book, just wanted you to know it may be possible, but it takes alot of dedication, frustration, and sweat for the horses with this personality types. I rode him 6 days a week, rain or shine. He can now sit all winter and be pretty good come spring. As for diet evil one gets 3OZ of safechoice pellets and grass hay, which helps also. Good Luck. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 5:33 pm: | |
 I didn't realise I wrote that before it was actually too late.
It is a joke for mounted games. Our trainer had an obsession with raising patterns on the horse's quarters. One day he brought a sheet with a backgammon pattern for the "team" to use in a demonstration for a visiting school.
We reluctantly did as instructed, then glued some backgammon pieces on his horse's quarters. He didn't appreciate our sense of humour as they proved very difficult to remove, but the term horsebackgammon stayed for mounted games.
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Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 346
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 6:24 pm: | |
Christos and Diane,
Am I missing something? This horse just took her through a fence and has the wits scared out of her. And you want her to get on and establish tempo?
This is a green horse and green rider combo. Not so easy to keep your cool in that kind of situation.
Linda, I say don't get on until you have professional help to at least evaluate the situation. People have been killed by out of control horses. |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1286
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 7:32 pm: | |
No, Erika, I do not want Linda to get back on and establish tempo. But I want her to understand what the situation is and be better prepared the next time she rides this or any other horse.
The horse is young, but not a 3yo. Linda has been riding him for quite some time and she is rightfully pleased. This horse, for his age and condition, is an absolute gentleman.
He apparently presented no problem as a 3yo, then some "specialists" suggested "dressage" and the horse's trust and development went down the drain along with Linda's trust and development as a rider.
I can't suggest selling this horse, I can't suggest quitting on him, I can only suggest going back to what they were already doing before the application of "dressage".
I do not even suggest cutting back on food. If he is not fat, cutting back on food will only make him ill tempered and very reluctant to work. Hungry horses do not work well. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 348
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 8:18 pm: | |
Christos, Just to clarify my suggestions:
I am under the impression that Linda did go back to what they were doing before the dressage lessons. And he was still getting worse according to Linda. A horse that is constantly trying to get the rider off is not "an absolute gentleman."
Linda admits to being a green rider with not a lot of confidence. She had a scarey situation that could have been disastrous.
I didn't say to cut back on food, I said change his food to all hay (Linda says he is also on good pasture and is a 6 on the weight scale--I don't believe he needs all that sweet feed for the amount of work he is getting).
I am not saying quit the horse, not saying sell the horse. But I still say don't get on him until you have really good professional help.
Respectfully,
Erika |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 371
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 10:46 pm: | |
Erika, that is what my 2 posts were all about getting a GOOD trainer. I could not have done it without one. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 349
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 11:39 pm: | |
Yes, Diane, I see. I skimmed the posts and missed a little. Sorry.
And Christos, please notice that I signed my last post "respectfully", because I know that you know your stuff! But I also know that not everyone is as comfortable on a horse, or as in tune as you are.
I have ridden all my life. But I tried skiing for the first time as an adult. I was terrified, and I know that no amount of lessons will make me as comfortable on skis as I am on the back of a horse.
Linda learned to ride as an adult. I bet she feels like I do on skis .
To paraphrase Debbie, it is supposed to be fun! If Linda is intimidated, she needs help to find her way with this horse, or she should feel free to seek a new relationship with a different horse.
I dated a lot of frogs before I met my prince of a husband. Should human/horse relationships be any different?
VERY respectfully, and humbly,
Erika |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 7:04 am: | |
Many times a green rider/green horse combination is helpless and disastrous, I agree. But is this the case here? I doubt it.
Linda reports that whenever she teaches this horse something they both understand, the horse responds very well, better than expected.
She also responds that they had some time when none of them understood the lessons, where, of course, he did not respond well at all. Otherwise they wouldn't have quit those lessons.
Now Linda is trying to apply things she does not understand, like transitions. Without realising, she is continuing the frustrating lessons by trying to build on a very unstable foundation. The horse is getting increasingly confused, perhaps also quite scared. Much like Linda herself.
Do they need to kiss each other goodbye and look for better partners? I do not think so. They just need to work on things they both understand, be friends again, and so on. |
jojo
Member
Username: Jojo15
Post Number: 803
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 7:52 am: | |
Linda,
such good advice given above. I've been exactly where you are now, too. After you have checked out the physical aspects and are sure its not a pain issue, tack issue, feed issue etc.. Then you might need to make a few hard decisions.
A few things i learned after ownning a horse just like you describe.
in hindsight it was a great learning experience and grateful i have it, but i should have sold the horse as soon as it started to get dangerous.too time consuming, expensive, and started to dread riding her. Instead i spent 8 years trying to solve it.
There are no problem horses, only problem riders. If a horse has a problem, its NOT the horse, its the rider who has the problem.
A green horse and a green rider DO NOT MIX. (and i have been riding since i was a kid, but green to highly intelligent,athletic horse)
The communication to the trainer is everything, and if the trainer doesn't understand what you are wanting, it won't help. And even then i went thru 3 trainers. I also know that the horse will learn faster than you. No matter how hard you try, it will get bored while you are still trying to perfect your seat, or hands, or a move,etc. he is wondering why aren't we onto something else already? And it frustrates the animal making it act out in weird ways. And it will escalate.
If the horse doesn't respect you, its hard to regain it. Or if the horse had respect for you and now doesn't, I'm not sure you'll ever get it back. That bond is something special, if you don't have it, its a dangerous situation because the horse is looking out for himself only.
If the horse is high maintenance it will always be high maintenance. His personality is not going to change, maybe mellow a bit with age and experience, but at 5 you have about 9 years to go.
Having the confidence in groundwork is not always translatable in the saddle.
There are always people that can and will handle horses that are too much for me. Let them. It took me a long time to realize what i wanted and what i had were not the same. admiting mistakes is more admirable than sidestepping it or trying to solve it only to make it worse.
good intentions do not always make for good outcomes.
if you are a timid rider, the horse no matter what kind will pick up on that. and act accordingly. Some will help you along. some won't and feed off that timidity. OR worse, fear. That is a horse smarter than its rider. getting a trainer to train that out of him, might not work. A horse needs to be trained with its assets in mind.
are you riding for enjoyment? or for the challenge? they can be intertwined on small scales, but once it becomes more about the challenge and less about the enjoyment its for the wrong reasons. (some trainers/owners love that aspect only of horses and they are successful and that is great, but most of us and our LOVE of the horse encompass different aspects). Figure out where you sit on the scale.
Off the cuff musings while drinking my coffee and reminiscing about the most beautiful TB i ever saw, rode like butter, had to buy, trained for years, and now is gone because i probably didn't do some or all of the things above. |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 372
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 8:47 am: | |
Christos is so right about making the horse do things it's not ready for. Once I got a little confidence with my horse I started a little dressage and some jumping at home. I told my trainer what I was doing, (I was very proud of myself) and he said QUIT IT NOW! Go out and trail ride and just enjoy him, until you know what you are doing. . We can jump and do a little dressage now. (5 yrs. later). |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 137
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 11, 2006 - 10:46 am: | |
Oh, please don't have a row amongst you over me! The funny thing, is all of you are right. Christos, Cutter and I did do well together, and have had many good days. Far more good days than bad. When Cutter is relaxed, he is a joy. In fact, I think we were following much of your instruction in the first post, without really knowing it was right or wrong. It just felt right.
However, Erika is also correct. I am afraid now, and my fears have steadily increased to the point that he does not trust me, nor I trust him. Some of that goes back to the dressage lesson, but his spookiness and excitability ( and my anxiety) were happening before that.
I went out to pasture last night to visit him, first time since the accident. I brought an apple and held it out to him. He sniffed it, then jumped backward as if it were poison. He did that three times before eating it. I never moved, just held out my hand, and when he came up to me and took it without jumping, I turned and walked slowly away. I want to continue to build his confidence in me, and I see it will take time.
As far as training goes, I have some limitations. I live in a very rural area and there are only a few people that do this. Right now, I want to get Cutter to the point where another person can sit on him and he behaves himself. I don't think it will take a lot for him to get to that point, with the right person on him. He needs someone with confidence and experience that can work through his resistance.
As far as me riding him, I am not sure. I think jojo is very truthful and I need to give this some clear thought. I see where my own fears have caused Cutter's progress to decline. I believe my strong point is through good skills at communicating to him. Where I lack, well - Christos, you have a line in your first post, "In trot, insist that he moves with a low head in the exact tempo you dictate." It's that word "insist", that I have trouble with. How? What does one do to "insist", that does not end up with one's a$$ on the ground? And, do I really have it in me to "insist" at all? (Even as a Mom, I am a pushover!!). So these are issues I need to give some serious thought to. I also seem to have a thick skull when it comes to figuring out when is a safe time to mount, and when not to. Is what I am living now "the school of hard knocks"? Literally. How badly do I need to get knocked around before I get the picture?
I do appreciate all your help through this. I am so emotional about it right now, I keep tearing up when I read your posts. So many people have been down this road, it gives me some comfort to know there is a light at the end.
Linda |
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