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Discussion on Help... they claim my horse is evil...
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Ida
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 1999 - 11:24 am: |   |
How this all begins is somebody witnessed my horse knock a mare over and step on him. Now my horse is treated like a big criminal... and there has been talk that my horse has to be removed from the barn. And he got kicked out of the riding school already. (I was really angry about this also because he's an intermediate/advanced horse so you need to learn how to work with him first. He reared and dumped riders at the school but the fact is you cannot count on kicking him and he'll move and pulling on the reins he'll stop because he won't if you don't have the right formula. I've had problems with him before... all of them are solved by me getting good suggestions from this forum; or getting a good lesson from my instructor or have my trainer ride him... and when my trainer ride him, and he's going around so perfectly I know how much I owe this horse.)
I feel very sad because people describe him as this viscious attacker but he has always been very very good to me and he'll learn/do anything I taught him. I admit he's 'spunky' and doesn't enjoy, but torlerate (if I am on him), being ridden side by side with another horse... but that all depends on who he rides with. I ride with my friend all the time, inches apart, and he seems to be happy, so it's just a matter of letting him get to know the horse and the rider. In general, it takes a long long time for him to trust a person and even longer to trust a horse. That could be the reason why he ends up with a dealer; that's where we got him from.)
He's being turned out with mares and geldings. He gets along with the geldings for sure and I've never seen him get at other geldings. But I did see him get at other lower ranked mares over food just like any other horses.
Can you guys, please be neutral, explain the whole thing to me... and help me make sense out of this. I kept hearing all kinds of things... people came up to me and say they are on my side (that horse do rough each other out...and they told me the mare has kicked and injured another horse before. My take is horses always do these things cuz mine has been kicked before and was lame for months. I think it's just bad luck and hopefully he'll learn to get away next time.); while some people thinks my horse is evil...
sorry this is very long and I appreciate your help in advance.
Ida |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 1999 - 11:55 am: | |
Ida,
I feel very strongly that you can reduce the possibilities of problems by separating mares and geldings in different turn outs.
Then, you have to consider the way the horses are managed ... how are the horses brought in (order)? how many are turned out together (high density creates competition for limited resources)? how are they fed? are there more hay piles than horses? where is the gate? if it is in a corner, a lot of milling around, jockeying for position, etc. can be tight and more injurous.
Finally, the individual horse should be considered. They do have preferences. They do have a herd order. They do behave as horses.
What to do? Can your horse be turned out with a smaller group of geldings that he gets along with? Are there reasonable adjustments that can be made to the feeding that discourages fights? etc.
I don't think your horse is inherently evil. A horse that is aggressive tends to be so most of the time, to most things. You've not described this.
Good luck. Hope this gives you some ideas. |
Teresa A
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 7, 1999 - 9:37 pm: | |
Hi Ida,
Nothing like a busy barn to get all sorts of negative feedback! Seriously, it's too bad that this happened and precautions need to be taken in turn-out (as Chris suggested above) but horses are not inherently evil. I've seen horses take a particular dislike to another horse/pony and chase it relentlessly. It's hard to know why, but typically these "victime horses" are a different color.
When people are critical I would say something along the lines of:
"horses are not inherently evil although sometimes to those who do not understand them thier behavior may appear unusual. The biggest problem that horses have is that people have removed them from everything centuries of evolution has prepared them for and, to top it off, expect them to act like people. A horses behavior needs to be interpreted from the viewpoint of a horse and not as though they were children on the school playground."
If I were you I would be happy that my horse was not being used in lessons. As he is so particular in who and how he is ridden it's better for him to have one consistent rider. this does not make him better or worse then any other horse. Not all horses are meant to be a lesson horse anymore then all people are meant to be a teacher (not that I'm comparing horses to people :}).
When it get really irritating simply walk away and go to your "happy place". There are those that you can't convince so don't waste the energy. I do appreciate some of how you feel because my horse has been accused of kicking another horse. I'm not saying he couldn't have done it, although it's out of character. It's just that when 3 horses are turned out at night and no one sees the kick how do you figure out who did it? Except of course that it wasn't the horse that was kicked.
good luck
Teresa |
Ida
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 1999 - 10:53 am: | |
Once again, thanks for your support. I really appreciate how you analyze the situation for me. The one thing I could not understand is how people cannot accept the fact that you cannot make a horse feel guilty... he did what he did out of some horsey reasons at that second.
The bottom line is I am not going to punish him or give him death sentence. As Chris suggest, I will try to ask for him to be turned out separately or with other geldings. He's been turned out with the same group of horses for 4 years and nothing has happened at all until more recently... it's a real herd, we have the dominant mare, a few bigger and stronger mares, then comes the geldings, then there are these smaller and quieter mares in the hierarchy.
Another friend at the barn suggested that this is happening because this year, horses are going in and out... 4 new horses are added (one of them got kicked really bad so it is removed; another one is sold later on), 3 from the original herd got removed. That is going to create a lot of tension. She also raised the point that since all of the other smaller mares are gone which leaves the mare (the one that got injured by my horse) the smallest and quietest in the herd, she's going to be picked at by other horses in the herd and more likely to be caught up in the action.
Chris I just have one more question... they are not bringing the horses in in any particular order, should I suggest that to them? Does it matter? Somebody suggest spreading out the hay pile already; right now they are just throwing it into the field on one side right along the fence (out of convenince). And as you've guessed already, the closest gate is at a corner... the paddock, I don't know how big it is but they put 12 horses in it and we all know it's a bit crowded but I guess the gang has always good and peaceful and space is limited so people have always let it be that way.
Ida |
Chris Mills
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 1999 - 1:34 pm: | |
Ida,
I would definitely put the hay out in piles, 1 more pile than horses. One big hay pile for 12 horses is asking for some fights.
The constantly changing herd dynamics can be very hard on the new horse(s) and the lower level horses. Perhaps they could group the mare and the less dominate geldings in one pasture and the more dominate geldings in another.
As far as bringing in/turning out - most horses seem to be excited about changing - whether to go in and get grain or to go out and get grass. To avoid fussing at the gate (which is in a tight area if it is in a corner) I would start with the dominate horses and work down to the 2 least dominate at the end being brought in together. Once you are consistent in taking the horses in/out and respect their herd order, they almost start to line up at the gate in proper order! So, for me, it becomes more convenient.
A lot depends on the people available to do the chores and whether they are motivated to preserve order. Routine goes a long way for establishing peace.
Also, new horses should be introduced very carefully. First they should be walked around the perimeter of the pasture (without the other horses) so they can understand the layout and how much room there is. Then, they can be introduced to one of the lower level horses in turnout. Over several days, a different horse can be introduced, one at a time, to the new one in the separate turnout. Finally, they can all go out together. This is the safest way to manage herd changes. A friend of mine lost a new horse that was essentially murdered by the herd when she introduced the new one to the group all at once. My friend watched for a couple of hours, thought everything was okay and left. Later that day, she returned to a horror - the new horse was beaten and had a broken leg. He had to be put down. It was very terrible.
Some farms require that horses prone to kicking do not wear shoes on their hind hooves. This may be something you'd consider for your horse as a way to alleviate some of the concerns.
Good luck, Ida. |
Diane B.
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 8, 1999 - 1:40 pm: | |
Hi Ida,
I feel bad for your guy... you're right... he's only doing horsey things.
I sounds like you are boarding your horse at someone else's stable and that there are 12 horses together. I've run my own stable for 12 years now and I can't stress the importance of a slow introduction of a new horse to a herd. I, too, believe the problem is the movement of horses in and out. The "why" has been explained in the other posts so I won't go into that. Here's what works well for me.
I have 2 fields separated by an outdoor arena which is out the doors of the barn. I keep 3-4 horses in the smaller field and 10-12 in the larger one. To introduce a new horse, I put the new horse by himself in the outdoor arena in-between the two fields and close the barn doors. There is only 2-strand electric fence around the fields, and the arena, because it borders the fields, has no other fence. Thus, the new horse in the "middle" (arena) can see the veteran horses (so he's not alone) and can touch noses with those that are interested but can stay away from the dominant horses if need be.
It only takes a few days before each of the veterans get to meet the newcomer and decide if they accept him or not. The new horse learns his place and status among the herd and who he can befriend and who he should stay away from. I then move him into the field with the small group of 'friends' so that he feels some security when the dominant horses are added later. Soon, the entire herd is together, everyone knows his place, and all is well. This only takes one week or less.
This approach has never resulted in major injuries for my horses. Rarely is there even any kicking or biting at all. However, over the years as I experimented, I have learned that if I do not allow the horses to "meet" over a barrier and just throw them all together, I ALWAYS got MAJOR fights resulting in downed fences and injuries.
I also highly agree with spreading the hay apart. It takes a bit more time (hardly 5 more minutes) but results in fewer headaches and fewer problems in the long run. Cutting corners always got me into trouble. I always make sure there are more pats of hay spread than there are horses so that the less dominant ones have a pile to move to when the dominant ones push them aside.
Your biggest problem, however, will probably be convincing the barn manager to try some of your suggestions. Running a barn is really hard work and extremely time consuming. We don't like suggestions that imply more work for us. However, these two issues I consider as simply humane ways to treat these animals. If the stable manager can't agree to at least try these simple requests, perhaps they don't have the horses' well-being high enough on their list of priorities. I'd try another barn, then.
Lastly, my opinion on who comes in first... yes, I do follow a hierarchy. Again, when I don't, I usually get fights and downed fences. When I do, I get order. I like order. I believe, however, that someone out there may have a good reason and a good method to teach the horses better manners in this circumstance and I invite any suggestions. But until I learn a better way, I'll just stick with order as I "give in" to the hierarchy. I've experienced no ill-mannered horses or otherwise detrimental affects from this that I know of!
Best of luck. Hope this helped ease your mind about your own wonderful animal. |
Suzanne Stiles (Fancy1)
| | Posted on Saturday, Jan 6, 2001 - 9:36 pm: | |
Who are these people looking after your horse Ida? If you are paying board, you have the right to question their practices, and boy, Chris and Diane B. sure gave you lots of things to look for. I have changed boarding stables 3 times in 8 years due to unsatisfactory conditions; the first barn turned out everyone together, allowing all horses to run out of their stalls thru' the arena and out into the field, then reversed it when they came in, great eh? The second barn had paddocks that were too small for the number of horses; my QH mare was chased thru' the pagewire fence trying to avoid an agressive gelding she was turned out with, once tangled she stood quietly till help arrived, thank God! The barn we are in now has large fields, separated groups of horses, lead in and out of the barn in order, and lots of hay for everyone. Also, I don't let others ride my horse for lessons because she would soon go sour, I've seen good horses get spoiled by beginners, so if my girls ride Fancy, I ride last. As Diane mentioned, leading manners do make a difference, so try to be aware of how your buddy leads, then no one will have any complaints in that area at least.
Best of luck Ida |
Marion Dickinson (Allenpor)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2001 - 1:40 pm: | |
A lot of nice, but sensitive horses will rebel when faced with dealing with a beginner rider.
Why do you allow your horse to be used as a school horse? Is it to get a reduction in price of board or lessons? If so, offer to do chores instead of loaning your horse. I believe any horse will eventually regress if ridden by riders below the level the horse is trained.
I have seen dominant horses, but none that would deliberately step on another horse. Do what it takes to get your horse a turnout that eliminates this problem.
Believe me--I know what it feels like to have others exaggerate the behavior of a horse. I lost a farrier because he hated my horse. She never misbehaved for me, but had to be handled gently and in a special way. |
Bonita (Bonita)
| | Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2001 - 4:31 pm: | |
I have to agree with Marion. Unless you trust the judgement of the owner/trainer/instructor totally, you can open a huge can of worms by allowing lesson use of your horse in addition to his/her possible regression to poor habits.
I too was offered a reduction in board if I allowed my gelding to be used in the boarding barn's lesson program (this is actually how the barn acquired nice horses for their lesson program so that their students could show competitively!). Although I definitely could have used the extra cash, after seriously studying the trainer's methods and her students' abilities, I knew right off my green gelding would ultimately be RUINED. I opted for budget-trimming in other areas instead.
At yet another boarding barn with my very first horse, I allowed a trainer I had initially respected and trusted to use my horse for a Pony Club Test Rally for which they were short of horses; and even though I was PROMISED he would only be used for flat-work (he was coming off an injury layup & the vet had okayed him for the Rally flat-work only) - I found out later (as I couldn't attend the Rally) that they had jumped the heck out of him with many different riders!!!
Live and learn - but definitely think twice about "leasing" your horse to a lesson program!
Bonnie |
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