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Discussion on Pair Bond too close
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claire sidebottom (Claire)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2001 - 3:53 pm: |   |
We graze our cob mare, her 2yr old son and my mums pony mare together, the pony has been with the other 2 since last May. Over the winter all three have been taken in and out of the stables together. Now we have a major problem as when we try to take Taboo (cob mare) out of the field the pony goes nuts, gallops round whinnies etc. This makes Taboo jump around, spin and rear and makes her nearly impossible to work with. Any suggestions as to how to work through this would be very very helpfull. Thanks. |
Jill Mann (Jillm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2001 - 8:19 pm: | |
At my ranch, there was an appy mare and a QH gelding that had been together for many years, 9 or more. The first time they were apart they went NUTS, but what they did is let the appy take out her frustration in an arena while the QH was tied up about 800 feet or maybe a little more away. Then they would switch. They did this for a few weeks, and now they don't have that problem at all! They nickered and whinnied for a long time, but now they can go out on trail separately or together and are fine, you would never suspect there was ever any problem. |
Monique Gatt
Member
Username: Monie
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 8:12 am: | |
I have a gelding & a mare in adjacent stables & paddocks. Although the mare bullies the gelding they just cannot be seperated. I have tried lunging them and then taking them out, one at a time for a few minutes, just up and down the lane close by, in & out of sight of each other but who ever is left behind in the paddock goes crazy. Neighing and charging up and down the length of the paddock. I get worried they can have a serious accident. If the gelding is out being ridden he's good, just tries to get back home, but manageable. On the other hand the mare is almost dangerous to ride. Rearing & refusing to go forward. Determinged to get her way. I have no problem if they're out on a ride together. This means I can only ride in company which is not always available. It has been suggested to me I get a donkey or a goat etc. to keep the one left at home company but I have also been told this does not always solve the problem. I'm usually on my own so it isn't always easy for me to have someone to help me while I take one out. The gelding is 16 while the mare is 8. Both are quite well trained and I ride well. I do have a trainer who comes round once a week. If we are each working one of the horses they are fine. Even if one is out on a ride and the other being schooled in the paddock. It is only when one is left in the paddock unattended that they misbehave. One of you probably has more experience than I do and can give me some suggetions. |
SHIRLEY WARNICK
Member
Username: Swarnick
Post Number: 13
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
Hi Monique,
When horses get this bonded, it would be wise to do the separation gradually and consistently and in my opinion, should be handled similar to weaning. Some horses can become so agitated they can colic from the anxiety if it's done too abruptly.
Since you will be doing this solo, I would start in 10 minute increments several times a day for 2-3 days alternating the horse left at the stable and then increase it by 5 minutes a day thereafter. Leave a small treat (about 1/2 cup)of cut carrot or apple with the stable-bound one so they associate a reward for being left behind. Even if they are not out of earshot and calling to each other, they should be out of sight of each other. Ideally, when they have mastered small increments of separation, then one should temporarily separate them out of earshot for approximately a month to further decrease the bond. I had to do this with our geldings as they were so attached, it was impossible to get them to keep their minds on training while apart. Since I had prepared to take one out to training off-site anyway, the shock of the separation was not as bad as it could have been. They handled it pretty well as the horse in training had other stablemates at the facility and the one left at home got a lot of extra attention and our bond became better as a result. In two months the other goes out for training so the situation will be reversed. They are a lot less stressed now when they are apart and are able to concentrate on their work than before. Of course, there is the occasional call but it's nothing like it was.
Hope this works for you too.
Shirley |
Melissa Webster
Member
Username: Mwebster
Post Number: 330
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 10:31 am: | |
My mare initially threw fits when she was the one left behind. She's very food-motivated, so I gave her a fresh flake of especially nice hay every time both geldings left, and over the course of a week or so she went from galloping around/snatching a bite/galloping around/snatching a bite to a whinny and back to the hay.
|
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8711
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
The main thing is they need to be on two different farms for a month. Shirley's technique may or may not decrease anxiety depending on the individuals. For some horses 10 minutes of nutty behavior that is then rewarded with being put back together will worsen the behavior, though it apparently helped her horses. Try to prevent injury by having them is as safe a place as possible when initially separated. This will need to be repeated each time they "overbond" with each other. In time they will become less joined at the hip when together.
DrO |
Monique Gatt
Member
Username: Monie
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 10:37 am: | |
Thanks Shirley. They concentrate fine when they're close to each other. It's like they're both trying to show the other how clever they are. Quite amusing really. It's just taking them out on a ride which is the problem. The mare is impossible to ride. I mean dangerous and believe me I do not get scared very easily & ride her well. I have been doing very much what you suggested. Perhaps I haven't been consistent enough. At the moment I'm a little short of time & the heat isn't conducive! As for putting one on livery. The closest stables I can move one of them too is quite far (by our standards) It would be really inconvienient. Plus I've got them both on the land. I can see them in their paddock from almost every doorway in the house. It's lovel and so practical. Do you think getting a play mate would help? Like a donkey or a goat! |
SHIRLEY WARNICK
Member
Username: Swarnick
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 11:23 am: | |
Monique,
It looks as though complete separation may not be an option for you and as Dr. O. stated, horses react individually. The steps I used, worked well for my little guys, they are 9 and 15 months but may not be as successful for an older animal. I find that understanding a bit of the psychology of horses helps me tune in to what is best to do for a given situation. Since they are creatures of habit,I feel consistency in method and repetition is the key to get better behavior. Once they get it, they get it and you'll know when to decrease or eliminate the procedure.
Our goal is for our horses to be able to function independently, however, we are up against a potent force when it comes to their herd instinct. Barring a complete separation, You'll need to work with the option(s) available to you. I would keep the rejoining low key and emphasize the positives on being apart. Since they are food-driven this may be a good tool to use as Melissa had good luck leaving some tasty hay to keep her mare occupied. Perhaps you could just feed lightly at the regular time and he/she might be inclined to settle down to a meal if a bit hungry.
This may sound a little nutty, but I think we all do it to some degree and that is to talk to our animals in voice and mental pictures about what we are asking them to do. I always try to project a mental picture to them of them doing the task successfully. They may not be actually receiving the message, although some people claim it's true, but I have at least given myself a clear picture of what I am asking from them.
A goat or other pal may be the answer if they each take a liking to it!
Shirley |
Melissa Webster
Member
Username: Mwebster
Post Number: 331
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
I think DrO's right - a separate farm for a month would bring you the best improvement. Maybe putting the mare on the other farm, so you're riding out from a "strange place" would help you regain her attention and respect? |
SHIRLEY WARNICK
Member
Username: Swarnick
Post Number: 15
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 11:58 am: | |
Monique,
One thought I forgot to add is that if your mare is being particularly nasty during the separation training you may want to go back to basic ground work, e.g lunging, voice commands, backing, ground-tying etc. She should be listening to you completely on the ground before getting on her back or new behavior problems may arise. We never want to let bad behavior get a foothold.
Shirley |
D. Barry
Member
Username: Cassey
Post Number: 71
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
Hi Monique,
I went through a similiar thing with my mare; the difference is the extreme herd bound (and really, even though it's only two horses, that's what's going on with yours) behaviour literally happened overnight. Upon Dr. O's suggestion we removed my mare from the main herd. Like you, a separate farm wasn't in the works, so we put her in the farthest area away from the herd, and actually put her in the sturdy wooden round pen for her own protection, she was that scary. She would have gone right through the fence otherwise.There were a couple yearlings and other mares in the nearest paddock she could interact with, so she wasn't totally devoid of horse company. She was just a paddock away from the horses (it was just one, maybe two) she was fixated on. Her behaviour was so bizarre and out of character we all thought she had eaten some toxic plant, she was that totally out of control. She had hay, water and shade in the pen; she fretted mightily, ate or drank very little for 24 hours straight. I am so lucky that I have an understanding and patient barn manager; my horse whinnied for the others ( and they answered every call faithfully) throughout that whole first night. It tapered off over 48 hours, and then she was fine. If anything, since this horrible time, she is even more respectful, soft and affectionate. It was as if she came to see me as her comfort during this time, since I showed up to make sure she had water, food, grooming, company, etc. We kept her totally apart from them for almost a week. She's back with them now, no further problems. We plan on removing her one day a week or so(again Dr. O's suggestion) as prevention.
I hope my experience can lend you some moral support; it broke my heart to see my calm, sensible, smart mare go through this, but as much as I love her, I couldn't let this dangerous behaviour continue. As the very least, I want to be able to ride and enjoy my horse; at the most, I can't allow her to put my life in danger.
Good luck; let us know how it goes.
Dee |
Monique Gatt
Member
Username: Monie
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 5, 2003 - 4:55 pm: | |
Thanks to you all for your suggestions. It will be very difficult for me to seperate them. This is not such 'horsey' country as with you so I don't think there is any farm I could move either of them to in the vicinity. My place isn't big enough.
She's very good lunging and obeys my verbal commands very well. Although I must admit lately I have been very short of time, it's also VERY hot and I haven't been lunging them as regularly as I should. So now they do play up a little and I have to work harder to get their concentration, especially with the mare. I will definitely take into consideration all you suggestions and work at it. Perhaps more discipline & consistency on my part will help. As you suggested I will try taking them out alternately for a few minutes regularly and leave some hay for the other to keep occupied. We'll see how it goes. In desperation I will consider getting a donkey!! I'm just worried that might add to my problems. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8713
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 6, 2003 - 8:30 am: | |
Though another companion may help with the one left behind, it is difficult to understand how this will make the mare less of a problem when ridden away.
DrO |
D. Barry
Member
Username: Cassey
Post Number: 72
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 6, 2003 - 9:58 am: | |
Monique,
Is there anyway you could alternate putting them in a stall to keep them apart for a few days? It might not be very pleasant for them, but for a few days of discomfort you will hopefully end up with everyone happier. I know it's very hot, but maybe with a fan for ventilation it would be bearable for the one in the barn, especially if you can alternate frequently. It would be a lot of work to take one in/turn one out but short term pain for long term gain? I know exactly what you're going through...
Dee |
Melissa Webster
Member
Username: Mwebster
Post Number: 332
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 6, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
Dee's suggestion of a stall is good. If you have room, you could alternatively create a small temporary paddock (say on the other side of your house) using electrical tape (and electrify it) to keep the quieter horse contained... |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 362
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 7, 2003 - 3:02 am: | |
A hunting friend of mine (who still hunts aged 72) that I have always found a great source of useful horse knowledge has always recommended to me keeping your pasture divided into small paddocks and keeping all horses separated by at least one paddock - they can see each other but not get too herd-bound and no nibbling over the fences.
She thinks this is the biggest problem for anyone who has only a few horses usually encounters.
I've never been able to do this as I don't have control over my pasture to that degree and because I have my horses in with some dotty thoroughbreds that could easily damage themselves trying to jump fences - but it works for her.
All the best
Imogen |
Kathleen S. Oien
New Member
Username: Kathoien
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2003 - 2:28 pm: | |
I'm late checking email with a busy Summer well under way, but felt a bit compelled to post a thread under this heading.
I have two arabians and one shetland pony: 18 yr. arabian mare, 15 yr. arabian gelding and 7 year shetland (small "herd", major bonding).
We live in Minnesota and have 10 acres for our horses to roam on, consisting of two pastures.
While my husband and I enjoy riding together approximately once a month, I am home more often and am riding at least once or twice a week (alone).
Having the pony in the pasture with the horse that is left behind has NOT eased the separation, when I am riding away from the farm ... sometimes the horses displayed the separation behavior when I was working a horse in the round pen, only several feet away from the pasture ...
First, I would not advise purchasing and keeping a donkey or goat for companionship to combat the problem of separation.
Second, working your horses and having a good command/respect relationship is the key, as it was for me and as it is for a fellow horse owner/breeder with a herd of 25 pain hoses/stallions/geldings/mares. The suggestions of separating for a month or a week or a few days monthly - all fine; however, your situation is going to be just that - YOURS.
You aren't working towards separating them to have them simply eat and sleep separately, you are separating them to enjoy taking them out for a ride - and one you would like to enjoy by relaxing and not feeling like you are endangering your well-being, correct?
I would assume that you are trying to break the bad "habit" not the horses spirit...
Third, if your horses are comfortable working in a particular pen or arena, place the horse you are not working out of eyeshot. Work that horse consistently and take small steps out of the pen or arena and praise them for good behavior, while punishing them for bad.
No matter which route you take, the commitment is going to be big; however, the rewards will be well worth the effort.
Good luck and enjoy learning with your horses!! |
Diana Carroll
Member
Username: Djane
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 26, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
Hi, a twist on the usual separation anxiety; my horses are all in a herd at home (5) and are good about coming and going with a minimal amount of fuss; however when we are in a strange enviornment trail riding they become obsessed with each other it seems to affect the old timers as well as the younger ones. I spend hours riding back and forth and all the usual things trying to strech that umbilical cord to no avail. I have come to the conclusion that maybe we should only take one horse (hubby can run along side) Humm! I would be interested to know if anyone has a good solution other than the above. Diana |
Diane Rickman
Member
Username: Dianeric
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 11:39 am: | |
I have a barn with two adjacent stalls. The stalls open out to two separate adjacent fields, on 5 acres. I have a QH gelding and a TB gelding boarder. Suddenly the boarder is going psycho when my horse is out of sight. I ride alone away from the property. My horse is not too bad, but the boarder becomes almost dangerously agitated. I have been locking him in a stall with the top and bottom stall door closed for an hour each day and longer on the weekends. It takes about 4 hours for him to stop screaming. They are next to each other at night and when in the pastures. The TB is retired and stays on the property. I already have 2 goats and they're not working. Moving away for a month is really not an option. Suggestions? |
Dawn Anderson
Member
Username: Hot2trot
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 6, 2003 - 10:32 pm: | |
I've had the same problem with my Fox Trotter in the past. The solution? Per my vet, I began keeping them in adjacent but separate pastures/mud lots. They are still able to groom each other and can remain in each others' views, but the physical barrier seems to help them retain psychological independence. My Fox Trotter used to become dangerously agitated as well, especially when I rode or worked with one of the other horses, but he has become much more docile since I began separating them. I do, on occasion, turn them out together to "play," but for the most part keeping them separate seems to be beneficial. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 9231
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2003 - 6:29 am: | |
You could try extending the stall seperation or do it more frequently.
DrO |
Neezie
Member
Username: Neezie
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 7, 2003 - 9:33 pm: | |
My observations on pair bonding problems. Over the years my 23yo 3/4 TB mare has been kept in busy livery yards and my own yard. In the busy environments she would come and go with no fuss hack out alone with no anxiety problems. In my own yard numbers vary from two to four horses. The less horses the more anxious she becomes about separation to the extent of the previous posters experience of becoming dangerous to ride. Napping, rearing, running backwards, balking and refusing to go forward. She actually trembles and is totally stiff and tense. Having owned her since a four year old I still havent totally solved the problem. She has always been totally nuts at horse shows although I have managed OK to get her to do her job.
What works to a degree for me is to separate her out of eyesight of the other horses in a small turn out paddock or stable and after around 48 hours of frantic whinnying, pacing around and snatching at hay and feed interspersed with stock standing still, trembling and listening she becomes resigned to the situation and becomes dependent on me. She becomes focussed and affectionate even and becomes manageable to ride although she gets very excited if we encounter any horses en route. However the down side is her air of dejection and she seems to become depressed in a way and lose her sparkle. Naturally I then feel horribly guilty but it keeps her manageable.
My conclusions with this particular horse are:
There is safety in numbers and the more there are the happier she is and she has always been a lead mare. No management or riding problems.
Kept alone she is noticeably unhappy and switches her dependency from the other horses to me although obviously I cannot satisy her needs for other equine company. Few management or riding problems.
Kept with two to four other horses, happy and contented. Difficult to manage and ride.
I dont know if this is helpful but it shows a pattern of behaviours studied over almost twenty years and I havent found the total answer yet!!
The other horses in my small herd at the moment kick up a bit of a stink at having to go it alone but all get on with their jobs as normal after a growl,coaxing,good slap (depending on horse) so I thik individual temperaments do have a big part to play just as in humans. Some people cant bear to be alone for five minutes and others luxuriate in some time alone.
Good luck |
Kim Glaza
Member
Username: Kckohles
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 8, 2003 - 1:47 am: | |
Hi All,
I thought I would add a post since this has not be suggested yet. A consistent theme amoung the posts is to try and get the horses to do what you want. Have any of you ever tried to give advice to a horse owner that didn't ask you? Since most of you seemed to be experienced horse people, most if not all of you have had this uncomfortable and sometimes frustrating experience. If someone doesn't ask you for advice it is because they usually have ideas of their own and until they have exhausted those ideas they aren't really interested in hearing what you might suggest. It is the same for horses. Their idea is going back to the other horses and they know, from days and days and sometimes years of being together that they will be comfortable with the other horses, and guess who is preventing that? We the rider are, so they are doing everything they know and even trying some new things to try and get back to the other horses. They cannot hear or even think about what you are trying to get done because they have to get back to the other horses, their idea. So how I handle this situation, and in my opinion it is not an issue of respect or good enough training, it is about helping the horse exhaust their idea. I show them that their idea isn't exactly as great as they thought it would be. So I ride my horses at the barn, this works for horses that don't want to leave the barn as well, I ride them in their corrals all around the barn yard and work on the things I am currently working on with that horse. Could be some backing up, turns, circles, trotting small circles. Anything I might think of. With my TBs it is usually a little faster paced (more trotting) since their stamina is high, I might do this for 30 minutes on the long side. Then I think about going out, might only get 5 feet out the gate the first time and the horse says "I have got to go back!" So we go back and explore their idea, guess what it isn't exactly what they thought it would be, instead more work! But in the barn area or corral they are what I believe Tom Dorrance referred to as "a learning frame of mind" so you can practice or work on something. Out or away from their buddies they can't think of anything except "GET ME BACK!!!" It usually only takes me about 5 trips out and back, going just a tad bit farther each time until they say "hey, let's go see what's out here because clearly back at the barn isn't as great as I thought" Now you need to build their confidence don't think about then taking them on a two hour ride, you might only get out of sight of the barn and let them eat some grass for a bit and then take them back! When I get back to the barn with a horse that I have done this with or with a horse that needs to hurry home, I tie them up for awhile, until they turn loose and let down. Sometimes this can take awhile but once they figure out what they deal is, let down (emotionally), and then you are finished, it is quick. You are just trying not to re-enforce that they barn is the best place on the planet, because they are already really clear on that. If you grain or feed treats, while you are working on this feed it before you go, not when you get back. Again trying not to give them every reason to get back to the barn. So now with the other horses it is easiest to have someone else riding the other one(s) just because you are getting them all helped at the same time. But what I do either way is exhaust their idea, work them together and rest them apart. So in the pasture or barn area, when I am close to the other horses, I practice the things I am currently working on, then after awhile of this I ride away. Just far enough away that they are just this side of trouble, not out of their minds but just starting to think they might need to get back. Then pretty soon one or all of the horses say "I have got to get to those other horses" and then you go back to work, work close enough that it is really clear that the other horse(s) is the cause of the work. And when I say work, not running them into the ground just basic stuff, circles, backing, side pass. When you get your horses' mind working for you it doesn't need to be this long repetitive thing, horses are really smart at figuring out what happened right before they got uncomfortable (the work). So it doesn't take them long to know that getting close to the other horse caused the work. If you are working on something and working on it with little change it isn't that your horse is stupid it's that whatever you are trying, the method, isn't working. As humans we think if it isn't working we aren't dedicated enough to the process, maybe the whole process is the wrong approach! Take a fresh look at a problem rather than digging in your heels for more or even more of the same expecting something different. Okay, enough of that and back to the separation.
Work the horse where they are sure they need to be, try not to prevent them from going there, go there with them and show them it isn't exactly what they thought. For example, if you work your horse around the barn area and they get that deal figured out, but then they say "if I just could get to my stall, I could be comfortable" take them to their stall and show them what's there, more work! Pretty soon they want to know where you think would be a good place to go, and that would be away from the barn! But be careful that your place doesn't hold more work. It needs to be the comfortable place. So don't think that now I have them going away from their buddies "let's just pop into the arena for 20 minutes of cantering." Imagine why horses would be arena sour?!
If you don't have someone else to ride the other horse(s) you can either work with the one you are on first and then the other(s) when you ride them, or drive the other horses around a little bit (be aware, don't get kicked, guess how I know about that pitfall?) They will get really quickly that the horse they were desparate to have come back just caused them to have to do some work. Pretty soon they will say "quit coming back, I am sick of all the work you keep bringing with you!"
Some basics I believe about horses might help. Horses are concerned first with safety, then comfort, then reward/food. Food is third for them, for us (predators) reward/food is number one so we are highly motivated by it. Horses get sure in their environment first, themselves second, and lastly us.
I have gone on and on and I hope at least some of it makes sense. But I have had a lot of success with this process taught to me by Lee Smith, it really works.
Good luck and keep your cool.
KIM |
Michael Stepanek
New Member
Username: Nancyd36
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 8:41 am: | |
I have two lovely mares, a trakehner and a conemara pony. We kept them at our home for May and June before moving them to a large farm on July 1st for two months of training. Because they were extremely attached to one another, the trainer began slowly separating them when they were ridden. Everything was going well until a couple of days ago. The horse was already in the barn and the trainer had just worked the pony. We were going to put the pony back in her stall, but we had to wait because "pony camp" was meeting in the barn. I was holding the pony (who seemed quite relaxed) when the trainer approached the pony from the right rear. The pony suddenly kicked out and "cow kicked" the poor woman in her thigh. She does not have a broken bone but has a bad bruise and is using crutches. The incident was very upsetting and I am concerned that someone else will get hurt. From reading these posts, separation anxiety seems to be a serious problem. The pony was always "marish" but never kicked anyone before. How do you handle a pony who has kicked a person? I do not know how to proceed from here. Should I move the pony to a totally different farm, forget about trying to separate them (since they are only there for the summer anyway) or continue to try to serarate them on this farm. Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. |
Kim Glaza
Member
Username: Kckohles
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 16, 2004 - 11:43 am: | |
Hi Michael,
I am not sure I see how the kicking and the separation are related? I wrote a long post in this discussion on how I handle separating horses. If the pony was really focused on getting back to the horse then the trainer might have startled her by approaching too quietly. Anytime I approach a horse, even my own horse, I make sure I at least get an ear flick in my direction so they know that I am coming. It is a similar experience when we are day-dreaming and someone startles us, we are "out of our bodies" while we are day-dreaming and it is only when the person speaks to us do we come back to the moment with a start.
The other thought is that it could have been intentional, how did the training go right before that? The pony could see the trainer as "the one" keeping her away from the horse. So the discomfort of the separation is linked to the trainer, then add training on top of that, all the time spent with the trainer is perceived by the pony as uncomfortable.
I would keep the horses at the same farm, not right next to each other if you can arrange that. They might pace whinny and paw for awhile but showing a horse that they can handle a little trouble is good. If they get too worked up and the horse ties well I will tie them up. The thing to consider is the psycological side, if you separate them for short time and the horse or pony is an emotional wreck the entire time and you bring the horse or pony back to the other. While they were apart the one throwing the fit doesn't think, "oh I made it 30 minutes without the other I'm fine" no it is something more along the lines of "That was horrible, the pacing running and whinnying brought them back." The way to help them emotionally is to let them go all the way through the emotion to the other side and only when the fretting has stopped can you bring the other one back. Some people are not willing to let horses go through some trouble to get to the other side, in my experience it is sometimes the only way. Letting them go through trouble is different then being the cause of the trouble. That is what I was saying earlier, the trainer could be perceived as the cause of the trouble.
A little more information might make it easier for me to give you an informed answer.
KIM |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 530
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Jul 17, 2004 - 5:25 am: | |
I think Kim is right - it doesn't sound like the two incidents are necessarily related. Also any horse can kick, at any time, and it doesn't do to get too upset about it - it happens. Concentrate on getting everyone you control to be safe about how they approach any horse instead.
I keep two mares together. The only time I really have trouble is when I take both to a competition and then the action is taking place close to the horse trailer that one is tied up in - lots of whinnying and distraction. So I try to park a bit away from the arena if I can. Also I separate them by riding each in turn most days. Yes, they7 run about and whinny for a few minutes but like kids, once you're not watching them and worrying, they get on with the serious business of grazing fairly quickly.
And at least once or twice a year they get a month or so apart. Mares will be mares though... mutual wither nibbling is an awful nuisance with them - one of my mares actually has a sore on an old scar on her withers caused by the other nibbling her...
All the best
Imogen |
Michael Stepanek
Member
Username: Nancyd36
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 6:51 am: | |
Thanks Kim and Imogen. Actually Kim, I really like the way you handle separating the horses. Our home farm is set up perfectly for this. We had the horses trained by a natural horsemanship trainer for the first couple of years we owned them and this seems to go along with this philosophy. Make it a little bit uncomfortable to be together and make it comfortable for them to be apart. I will also try Imogen's suggestion of totally separating them for a month each year. I think this would do them a world of good. The trainer also suggested moving one of the horses to a different section of the barn.
Luckily the trainer who was kicked is off the crutches and feels somewhat better. I hope the kick was not intentional. We always felt we were fortunate to have such a great pony for our daughter and this really scared us. She had been excellent for the trainer just before the incident. We will be extra cautious when working around her on the ground. Thanks again. |
Laura Dwyer
Member
Username: Longhorn
Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 18, 2004 - 4:50 pm: | |
There is a specific natural horsemanship solution similar to Kim's and Michael's suggestions. It's contained in the Western Horseman's first book called Problem Solving by Marty Martens. By the way, there is a subtle difference between being barn sour and being herd bound.
Have one of your herd-bound horse's buddies in a stationary position, either tied or, preferably, mounted by a helper leaving plenty of room around them. Ride your herd bound horse about 150 feet or so away but in sight of the other horse. Drop your reins and give your herd bound horse the opportunity to stay where he is (which he should) or go towards the stationary horse. Like a magnet, the herd bound horse will usualy head toward the stationary horse. Once you get there, keep the herd bound horse busy. Not in a punishing way, but as if you were schooling them in the arena as Kim suggested. Do circles and figure eights around the stationary horse, back him around the other horse. The key is keep him working around the other horse. When you know your horse wants to rest, ride him away from the stationary horse the same distance as before. Drop the reins and repeat the exercise until your herd bound horse realizes that going to his buddy means work. Staying away means rest. Being near his buddy is not punishing but is just more difficult or uncomfortable as Michael said, and what you want is way easier.
It takes patience and time, though, and you have to have the stamina to do those kinds of exercises. If you have that, it might work.
I only have two horses separated in different corrals. One of them (the dominent brat) doesn't mind riding away from his buddy although if his buddy is riding away from him, he goes ape, squealing, crying, neighing, grunting, running about sweating up a storm, you name it. We just ignore it and hope the neighbors aren't too put out by it (we're in a kind of a suburban horse area). The other guy does the same when he's being left behind but he also doesn't like be "alone" (with me on him) when he rides away from the barn. He balks, cries, walks like Frankenstein, does a little bucky thing, etc. Fortunately, he doesn't get completely uncontrollable but since we only recreationally trail ride at a dead walk, once I get him back to the barn, it's circles, trot, back, circles the other way, trot, etc., before I'll get off him. The message being, of course, get back with your buddy and expect to work... |
Michael Stepanek
Member
Username: Nancyd36
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 19, 2004 - 6:24 am: | |
Great suggestions Laura. When we are at our home farm, we have only the two mares as well. We will definitely try this. It seems horses are frightened to be alone and a person has to build a very strong bond with them before they get over their fear. Our mares were very happy and content at our home barn (except for the herd bound issue) and I think we were really starting to form a strong bond with them. We have a summer home in MA where they are now in training, and the horses were progressing in thier hunter jumper training so I hope they can settle in here as well. I don't think the pony is barn sour because she has a strong work ethic and she gets excited even when the she is in her stall and her buddy leaves the barn. Thanks for the great ideas. |
Pam Sargent
New Member
Username: Sargent
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 6:31 pm: | |
I read with interest the various issues and problems people have with horses that become too bonded with each other. I have a similar situation and I'm looking for some input. My husband and I live on a small acreage with two horses. One is a 7 year old QH we have had for 4 years, the other one we recently purchased in January, 2005 (a 4 year old Tennessee Walker). Our set up is such that it is natural for these two horses to become very close, and our lifestyle and riding patterns promote herd bound/buddy sour issues. My husband and I usually ride together, mostly on weekends, and when we travel anywhere they usually both go. They are with each other day and night.
The problem is, the new horse gets extremely excited when left in the paddock alone. He goes NUTS to the point where he has jumped the fence. I am now afraid to ride my horse (QH) out alone for fear the Walker will jump the fence to get out. (We live in close proximity to a busy highway). Moving one horse out for a month is not an option we are too anxious to consider, given the small window of good weather/riding opportunities we have here this time of year. We wait for months through extremely cold winters for riding opportunities together. Options we are presently considering include: (1) electric fence -- to get him more respectful of fences; (2) hobbles - for when I ride out alone; (3) lock him in box stall (top and bottom door closed).
This horse is fine if someone stays with him for company, but that is not always possible or practical. He does call out and worry about his buddy, but doesn't go crazy the way he does when left totally alone. He is also fine riding out on the trail alone (for the most part) without his buddy. It is when he is left alone in the paddock that I feel we have little or no control, and I'm worried about him injuring himself by crashing over a fence. I'm not too worried about him racing around the large paddock alone; it's jumping fences that has me concerned.
Any suggestions/advice is appreciated. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 635
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 12:09 am: | |
Pam,
For safety, I would put the horse in a box stall. Horses can run through electric fence (or jump it) if they really want something bad enough on the other side. The safest thing to do would be to try and train the TWH to accept being alone, and the way you can get him used to being alone for a long time is to get him used to being alone for lots of short times, gradually lengthening the times that he is alone. Once he realizes that you or his pasture mate will always return, he will relax. It will take time and dedication . . . Lots of little trail rides to the end of the driveway and back at first . . . always returning before he gets to the frantic stage. It may seem that he will never learn at first, but with time and dedication, I believe you can help him learn to trust that his alone time won't be forever. |
Gill Bridgeman
Member
Username: Gillb
Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 4:34 am: | |
I have had similar problems with my three youngsters. I had two pony fillies and a Morgan yearling. The fillies came as a pair so they were already bonded, the Morgan came later but was very herd bound already.
I had a horrific experience with what can happen when a horse panics to get to the others. I had just brought all of my herd in during the day (who had been living out 24/7 over winter). I have another two pony geldings, so five altogether. The idea being I wanted to work with them all individually and get them used to being stabled away from each other.
They all went in their stables, I started off with the fillies next to eachother but planned to gradually separate them so it wasn't a sudden parting.
I took the Morgan out to introduce him to the arena, then put him back. I then took one of the fillies and led her out, past the Morgan's stable, who then started to get a bit agitated. The arena is in sight of the yard so I thought he would settle when he saw she wasn't being taken too far away. However, he began to throw himself at the door. So I took the filly back, but by that time he was half over the door. He struggled and struggled, nothing I could do as he was most of the way over and I thought he would just wriggle free.
However his hoof got caught in the door bolt of a second barred metal door behind the wooden one, and he was left hanging upside down stuck fast by his hoof. He broke his hock and had to be put down.
It was so sudden and traumatic and I'm still getting over it (it happened last Tuesday).
Anyhow what I'm doing with the remaining fillies is that I am gradually moving them apart in the stables, and this seems to be working fairly well, they both go out for short periods without the other getting stressed (although I do have the others for company).
It is very difficult when you only have two, and haven't got the option of removing one. I think if it was me I would start by working one in sight of the other staying on the yard and trying not to push the remaining horse past it's comfort level, so if it reacted badly I would bring the second horse back closer to it. Then move farther away each time, then maybe for five minutes; ten the next etc. It is time consuming but if you can gradually separate them like this you might get the remaining horse to get used to being on its own for a while because he knows his companion will always come back.
It is hard though as horses naturally aren't happy to be on their own, some do get used to it or cope better than others - with my pony geldings for instance, one is okay on his own -I wouldn't say he is happy, but he doesn't do anything silly. The other gelding runs around neighing! |
jos
Member
Username: Paardex
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 4:58 am: | |
I completely agree with all the methods mentioned above. Especially for a horse you want to ride it is part of their training. However I have to confess I have given in to their 'herd'feelings more then once [pregnant mare and me being perhaps unrealistically afraid of her losing her foal because of getting excited]and bought a goat or small pony or both.
Jos |
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