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M. Jane Blackburn (Mjane)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 18, 2001 - 11:50 pm: |   |
Greetings!
Has anyone heard of or had any experience with the "so called" calming beads that are implanted under the skin in various places on a horse's head? A veterinarian at the stable where I have my 3yr old gelding in training has done this with several of the show horses there. The idea is that these beads are placed at various pressure points and will help to calm a horse and make him more attentive during training. My trainer has suggested that I have them put into my gelding but I am very skeptical. It sounds like Hocus Pocus to me. Any thoughts out there?
Jane |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2001 - 8:25 am: | |
There now I have lit my incense candle, and lowered the lights down....Eeenieee meaniieee chiliee beanieee, the spirits are about to SPEAK!
The great Dronack will make this prediction: Implanting these beads in your horse will make your trainer much more attentive and much calmer and your veterinarian will be richer.
DrO |
josephine milano (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 19, 2001 - 11:08 pm: | |
there you go again Dr. Ooooohh I'm such a skeptic. 
You never know... Sounds kinda like permanent acupressure points. I know i had little magnetic beads placed in and around my ear and lobe area (not permanent) to help me cut down on smoking, make me more relaxed in the office and overall well-being. It helped me in spite of myself.
Jane, I would read up more about it. Where do they put them exactly and what areas they pertain to regarding the charts for acupuncture. Meridians, etc. Where was this started? usually things like this start with humans and then move to the animals. I have never heard of this...
It might be hocus pocus but then again it just might help. don't let Dr. O's skepticism throw you, he doesn't believe in any of the "out there" kinda things that some people swear by. Huh? Dr. O. |
Elizabeth Anderson (Liza)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 7:25 am: | |
One of the vets in this area uses a staple for calming. No-not one of the great big ones,just a small one. It goes on the forehead between the ears. Supposed to be similar to twitching but at a drastically lower level obviously. Releases endophorines. He uses it on his show horses. One of the barns in the area whose manager doesn't believe it until it works, has had it done on a few of their horses with results. Of course this vet is one of the few actually certified to do this. And, only charges $10. Apparently you will see the results immediately, or not at all. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 8:50 am: | |
Now what makes you think the Great Dronack might be me? And skeptical, I thought Dronack was quiet clear that many may benefit from the use of this wonderful product. And if it really does make the trainer more calm....it may have untold benefits to the horse! Let's make a list of all the possibilities that we might practice on this horse if we just assume anything is possible:
Women hormone implants
Implanted beads
Staples in the ears
Staples in the forehead
A good telepathic psychoanalysis session
Vitamin B12 injections
ACTH injections
Cool and Calm Paste
BeCalm Paste
Quitex Paste
Valerian Root
L-Tryptophan
oral magnesium
herbal/flower essences dabbed on their nose
ohhh I got tired and only got through 1/6th of the pages on this subject that I did a search on. It is important to remember this basic principle of medicine: no matter how "out there" it is, if you expect it to help, it probably will! Just food for thought.
DrO |
josephine milano (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 9:44 am: | |
I agree with this totally, "no matter how "out there" it is, if you expect it to help, it probably will! Just food for thought."
BUT that is for you the person who uses these things. You might subconsciously help yourself, like I said in spite of yourself.
But what about when you do these things to the horse or dog.And you see changes or responses that weren't learned, or trained You can't honestly say that you are transferring your aspirations on to the horse. Can you? I am always skeptical first (I think) but when you see the differences in say, the quitex when given, what can you attribute it too.
The situations are " almost" always the same. Obviously nothing is ever exactly the same, but difference in her behaviour is clear.
But until its admonished or praised in the medical field Dr. O has to be skeptical... its your job.
I wonder what its going to take to get you over that fence. To just admit sometimes that alternative medicines do really work and not just because we will it to. |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 1:05 pm: | |
So ...we have now traded Time and Patience in on beads and staples....? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 2:19 pm: | |
Hello All,
J, I have seen this argument before: how does the animal know it has been treated and this misses the point completely.
First is that most things wrong get better with time no matter what treatment is applied. We all like to believe we had something to do with that.
Second is that when we are dealing with complicated systems like medicine or in this case behavior, natural variations or the normal progress of the condition cloud evaluation of treatment. This last fact works a number of different ways.
1) A worsening of a condition while treated, may be interpreted as "this does not work" when the reality is it would have grown worse faster without the treatment.
2) A treatment that has no effect may be attributed with helping when the problem would have improved without treatment. Of course this can work the other way: no effect, but animal worsened therefore...
3) Or how about this scenerio: the animal improved following the treatment but the treatment was actually detrimental. The animal would have improved faster without the treatment.
These are the reasons why, without controls, you cannot make good judgements of the efficacy of therapy.
By definition (see the section on alternative medicine) if you can show that something is safe and efficacious or may have a logical reason to expect efficacy, it is not alternative medicine, it is good medicine. J, it is not that I question everything that should worry you. The very brightest people on earth believed in treatments that were clearly harmful before the scientific method. I don't think I am as smart as many of them were, it is my belief in the power of the scientific method that gives me an advantge. What should worry you is that you seem to question nothing........except my questioning of course. With affection,
DrO |
D. Hembroff (Debh)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 2:23 pm: | |
Is the animal better in response to some of these treatments or are they quieter because the owner is quieter? If your off to the show, would it not be normal to be a bit nervous? Other people might not notice but your horse certainly will. Animals are better non-verbal communicators than we are, they are bound to pick up on subtile changes in behavior that we would not recognize.
Many pro athletes use some sort of ritual to help mentally prepare for a game ie, left sock first, never shave before a play off game and so on. This sort of thing seems silly but they believe it helps them, so it does.
If you truly believe that a staple will make the horse calmer would this not give you one less thing to worry about? Now you are less worried, calmer yourself, the horse sees this and is calmer, tada it works! I'm not criticizing the ritual, if it helps it works. My only comment is can't we believe in something less invasive than inserting a foreign object under the skin? What if the staple, bead whatever caused a local tissue reaction or worse yet a infection?
I might be too scientific, but I think I'll stick to good old T & P.
D. |
Jackie Aldrich (Charisma)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 2:46 pm: | |
I'm sorry, but if a trainer told me I should do something like that to my horses,the first thing I'd question would be his abilities as a trainer. Who's to say these beads won't travel and cause your horse problems down the road. Anyone have any research on this technique? I think the lack of research on this kind of stuff is scary!
I too believe in time and patience. |
josephine milano (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Friday, Apr 20, 2001 - 11:50 pm: | |
Oh but Dr. O I do question everything. that is why i love this site so much. I might be the first to condone something (if its right for that person and circumstance), but am usually the last to try it. After educating myself on the subject, I am now ready to make a decision, problem is it could take a few years till that happens.YIKES.
I just like to see things as they can be and keep an open mind. Which of course you cannot condone cause you are the rock which we all pound our heads against. Just think what this site would be without papa bear keeping us on the right path.
But couldn't you change your sentence to say that: The very brightest people on earth believed in treatments that were clearly [considered outrageous] before the scientific method,[proved it good or bad, and they are called pioneers].?? |
Amy E. Coffman (Redroan8)
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2001 - 7:12 am: | |
Hello,
I've not heard of this, but it sounds like it utilizes acupressure points. Still, as others have implied, the real question is not "does it work?", but "WHY is it needed?". Something is amiss if a horse must be chemically altered on a daily basis, in order to be calm---even show horses. If several horses in the same trainer's barn have "needed" this done, that indicates a problem somewhere in the management end of the program.
I do believe in chemical methods to the extent of assessing a horse's diet carefully and not loading him up with sugar or a lot of extra protein, and some horses already off of sweet feed show a good response (calmer) to the addition of one of the B vitamins, but I can't remember which one.
Like D, I think this technique sounds unnecessarily invasive and I too would worry about infection.
~Amy |
D. Hembroff (Debh)
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2001 - 2:39 pm: | |
Hey J you are right they are pioneers. Without them we would not have what we have today. All things evolve over time. What we call modern medicine today had to come from somewhere. These old timey cures were tried and tested over many patients, (a lot of whom died, by the way) over many years. The things that worked are still around, those that did not naturally fall by the wayside. It would be foolish of us to throw away all this hard won experience and knowledge.
D. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2001 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hello J and D,
D. you are exactly right it would be foolish to throw away hard won experience and knowledge. All medical scientist would agree that at the most fundamental level what we learned from 2000 years of experience is, "simple observation has a very hard time devining truth in biomedical systems". To ignore this axiom is to close your mind to 2000 years of learning.
DrO |
debbie borden (Debbicoo)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2001 - 1:00 pm: | |
Why don't we have a clinical study on HUMANS first?
Any volunteers? |
josephine milano (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2001 - 10:11 pm: | |
What happened to Mjane? I want to hear more about this? We are all discussing something that very well may be hocus pocus. And we keep getting more esoteric as the post continues. Haha. |
M. Jane Blackburn (Mjane)
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2001 - 1:08 am: | |
Hi Jojo,
I'm back, but with nothing new to add. I must admit this "bead business" is interesting. I am still trying to find some scientific information about this procedure but have the feeling it does not exist. By the way, I asked my trainer how much the procedure costs and she thought it was around $l50. It would be one thing if my gelding were having some behavior problem that was putting him or his handler in jeopardy, but he doesn't. He is only three and just getting into his training so of course he is has alot of energy, but seems perfectly normal to me. It seems as if most of the show horses at this barn are getting beads. To me it sounds kind of like putting everyone on Prozac whether or not they need it.
By the way, I've already declined my trainer's request to put the beads in my boy. She thinks I should reconsider. I think not.
M. Jane |
josephine milano (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2001 - 6:41 pm: | |
Unless you can justify doing something very outrageous and implanting something in the horse. I, too would wait. I think about the breast implants that most everyone i know down here has put in and has screwed up there body in some way or another. Very sad and they don't even have any therapuetic benefit. Well, maybe for their handlers..... LOL.....
If you get any information on it please pass it along. And don't let your trainer push you into something you don't feel confident doing. I went through that phase with one.. FOLLOW your instincts, cause I didn't on many occasions, and want to kick myself for it. |
Chris Reynolds (Chrisrey)
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2001 - 3:06 pm: | |
I agree with the post" what ever happened to time and paitence?"....My experiance has been that even those animals with outrageous behavioral problems are best handled by time, not medication or other" aids". I see a problem with either ability or confidence or both in a trainer who recommends that all his clients " sedate"(wether with meds or gadgets)their horses. |
Chris Reynolds (Chrisrey)
| | Posted on Friday, May 4, 2001 - 4:30 pm: | |
DrO, have a question...If I learned this right, a twitch works by releasing certain chemicals into the brain in response to the pain the twitch causes, the chemicals then calm the horse( a survival trait to allow them to escape a predator).The release raises the levels of endorphins in the brain above the norm, stimulating the " calming " effect...As I am following this discussion these beads work on a similar principle?
If I am correct on that , then I wonder at the long term effects of the beads. As a cop, I had learned that when the brain becomes acclimatized to certain chemical level( in human cases drugs or stress), that level then becomes the norm, and it requires an increasing amount of stimulation to raise the levels above that norm. So if the beads are always there, raising that endorphin level, aren't they self defeating in the long run, as the level they induce becomes the norm,wouldn't they become ineffective? Wont the horse then require a greater "stimulation" to induce the calming effect of the endorphin release???
I am not making an argument here, but am really curious what your thoughts on this are.. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2001 - 4:42 am: | |
I do not know of any such work: the beads cause a long acting increase in endorphins. But Lord knows if you leave the twitch on to long the horse is going to fight it.
DrO |
PattiDR
Member
Username: Msmaidn
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm: | |
I've read that B-12 will make a horse more nervous and excitable ("hot"). Is this true? I have a 1/2 Arabian/1/2 TB mare in very good health and spirit. Should I not give this to her. I thought B-12 was a calming vitamin. Your help, as always, is appreciated! |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 687
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Apr 10, 2005 - 5:53 pm: | |
Patti,
Without being a vet, I think I can still tell you this: any vitamin is just a vitamin. If you overdose it, nobody can predict the exact results.
The same, I believe, goes for any substance.
I have seen horses become very funny with an excess supplementation of electrolytes. Jumping imaginary obstacles in perfect form, mounting hayballs as if they were the sexiest mare, acting as if they've never seen you before and other such nonsense.
So, I believe, supplementation only applies in order to correct a known, documented deficiency. Experimentation may not only fail to correct what you suppose it should. It may create an imbalance and problems where there weren't any in the first place.
So, my personal view is that if it ain't broke you should not fix it.
Christos |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12536
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 7:17 am: | |
Hello PattiDR,
B-12 has traditionally been thought to be a calming vitamin and frequently found in calming pastes. I think it is nonsense. Whether you should supplement B vitamins depends on the quality of your forages. For more see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Vitamins an Overview.
I suspect however your concern is behavior and not nutrition. If you are having a behavorial problem, why not post that. Try and find a appropriate topic and start a new discussion. If you are having trouble with this see the "Before you post" ... link at the top.
DrO |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 9:45 am: | |
Hi all,
I have a wonderful secret to calming nervous horses. It's called regular exercise, turnout and handling. (In hand work does wonders)
Bravo to you Jane for expecting your three year old to have energy.
Ellar |
Cheryl Hohler
Member
Username: Chohler
Post Number: 217
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 2:27 pm: | |
Yes Ella!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was once told my horse was to much of a handfull to shoe and that he needed to be sedated. I couldn't understand this my horse is lazy and if I could shoe he would let me. So I observed and decided he was getting fed his energy from the farrier. 15 minutes of in hand, Wella.......horse had shoes. It wasn't that the horse didn't want to hold still my farrier was uptight because there is a local stigma with mustangs. He expected my horse to put up a fuss so he did.
Sorry I strayed from the post sorta. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 562
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 3:23 pm: | |
Ella, you are on to something! Time, patience, work...all are calming. My stallions, and some of the mares,would be bouncing off the walls if they didn't get out at least every other day for some work, and the more the better in the case of the stallions.
Also, the post about horses picking up on the handler/rider's nervousness in so "right on." Haven't you noticed on show days, or days when everything is "going wrong" your horses are much worse behaved than when puttering around at home? The are like big mirrors. I've found they reflect what ever you're feeling, reflect it back to you, which increases your nervousness, reflects back to the horse, horse is even more nervous....a vicious circle. If the bead work, imo they'd be better off put into the rider! |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 180
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 3:31 pm: | |
Had to jump in on this, Yes, Dr. O the skeptic. Its getting so I know your response before the answer hits the discussion. That's ok, you probably know I will be the devils advocate.
Hey, I have a huge question though, if Tryptophane is on Dr O's list and it is hocus pocus, why does the AHSA put it on the forbidden substance list?????? I do not use calming stuff but I have learned to not make judgement till I do. I guess acupuncture doesn't make the list of possible remedies either. Those darn foreign modalities have been used for thousands of years but what do they know. Food for thought - have a good one all. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12541
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 6:57 pm: | |
Hmmm, knowing what I think, perhaps it is a sign you are developing good sense Debbie. Many of the substances on the forbidden list are there because they interfere with testing of drugs considered a problem. Here is a report just this month on tryptophan and exercise:
J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2005 Apr;89(3-6):140-5.
Metabolic responses to oral tryptophan supplementation before exercise in horses.
Vervuert I, Coenen M, Watermulder E.
Institute for Animal Nutrition, University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Foundation, Bischofsholer, Hannover, Germany.
Summary This study was conducted to evaluate the effects of oral tryptophan (Trp) supplementation on exercise capacity and metabolic responses in horses. Although experimental plasma Trp levels were seven times higher than the control levels, Trp supplementation had no effect on exercise performance and metabolic responses to draught load exercise.
The fact that it has been done a long time is no proof of efficacy, bleeding was around several thousands of years and may have contributed to the death of many thousands of individuals yet was practised well into the 18th century. But if you would like to see some positive feedback on acupuncture see the article on lower back pain, we use it in our practice.
DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 648
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 8:00 am: | |
I tried B12 and tryptophan on an excitable horse and they had no effect whatsoever. Of course this is an entirely anecdotal report and not to be confused with science!
Imogen |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 565
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:20 am: | |
If B12 is supposed to be calming in horses, why do they give B12 shots to humans who feel tired and run-down? |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:55 am: | |
Hi all,
I have a secret for calming horses too. It's called regular exercise, turnout and handling (a lot of in-hand work does wonders). So often people will forget one of these things and then complain that their horse is hyper. Imagine a 5 or 6 year old child shut in a stall and then expected to come out and perform in the classroom!
Good for you MJane for realizing that a 3 year old should have some energy!
Ella |
Ella
Member
Username: Miamoo
Post Number: 60
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:58 am: | |
Tried to post a message twice to this post. It is not showing up on my computer but I recieved other responses to this post on my email. If you people are seeing my messages, sorry it has come through twice.
Ella§ |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12557
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:16 am: | |
Ella, your computer is not refreshing the page following posting. If you post and you don't see your posting, try hitting the reload button.
DrO |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 182
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 1:07 pm: | |
Dr O
I applaud your knowledge and The Horseman's Advisor, I respect you but I am sure that makes no difference to you. I do think that many people on this site tip-toe around you as you don't feel any qualms about shutting someone down and sometimes with quite a bit of sarcasm.
As you know there are as many opionions as there are vets sometimes. This post aside, thryoid is a perfect example I know excellent vets who think hypothyroidism does not exist in horses and other who are excellent vets who think it does. I don't know enough one way or another but I respect their differences. But thyroid is another discussion. My question was why is tryptophane illegal? I Know there are masking drugs, is tryptophane one of them? It was a simple question. I don't even use it and never have. I am not argumentative but I don't feel you know me well enough to assume anything about me including how sensible I am. What is sensible in your opinion? Someone who agrees with you all the time? I think if you contacted any of my veterinarians you would get a positive report, am I more informed than the average ? maybe, I ask questions but I do what my vets tell me, thats why I pay for their advice. But in the same practice I may get conflicting opinions, thats ok, I like the fact that they can be on the same page but still be individuals and so can I. I think I have treated everyone, including you, with respect, not reverence, but respect, but if I offended you in some way I do apologize. I have enjoyed the posts and give and take as I can.
Good day. Debbie |
Christos Axis
Member
Username: Christos
Post Number: 694
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 2:51 pm: | |
Hi, all,
I just checked the label on the empty box of an ineffective calming product I had used two years ago. L-tryptophan was the supposedly calming ingredient (along with B1). I was placing a bulky order at the time and thought to give this thing a try, once I was training a very hot horse.
Mind you, not only it did not help at all, but I think it made things worse!
After three days of "treating" with this stuff, this mare was so hot that she reared straight up while I was swinging my leg over her back to get in the saddle.
Please note that I did not bump her with my toe, did not touch her rump and nothing spooked her. She had never done this before and never did again.
The rest of the ride was mostly hopping on all four, which was also too much even for her.
On the second day, still on this stuff, we did jump everything that could be jumped on the way home. Inadvertently so, as she cut a straight line back to her box. Now this hadn't happened before either and never happened again.
Coincidence? Perhaps. But just in case, I did throw the stuff down the drain.
Christos |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12561
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:51 pm: | |
I apologize Debbie, I guess my weak attempt at humor seemed sarcastic. However if you want to be the Devil's Advocate, you need to get a thicker skin. I have a single purpose and that is to provide horse folk’s with accurate information, as accurate as my experience and scientific reporting can make it. This is not based in a hubris but just the opposite, it recognizes how fallable we can be and the importance of research to support our observations. For those who wish to present heresay as fact, they should be prepared to meet the objective (as I can make it) information available on the subject.
Concerning your question about AHSA (now the United States Equestrian Federation or USEF) and tryptophan, I have never seen anywhere that they publish their reasons for a substance to be on their Forbidden List and in fact a substance does not have to be on a list to be forbidden. The rules state:
Any product is forbidden if it contains an ingredient that is a forbidden substance, or is a drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony as a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or might interfere with drug testing procedures.
That said they do publish a list of commonly occuring forbidden substances in their “Recommendations” document which many call the “forbidden list” and in 2005 tryptophan is not on that list. There may be a longer list somewhere (surely there is) but I have not seen it published. If you can find it I will be glad to query them on why it is there. I know of no research that suggests it might be there for any reason other than "interference".
DrO |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 650
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 3:34 am: | |
Deb, I've been a member of this board a long time now and Dr O has practised both his advice and sense of humour on me many times - I have never been offended and in fact have considered recommending him for fastrack sainthood on occasion. Only joking.
I think part of giving this kind of advice is sometimes to use humour to defuse unnecessary anxiety? The answer about banning ineffective substances which may also mask analysis was given early in the thread.
Best wishes
Imogen |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 12569
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 7:19 am: | |
Horses are easy but people can be tough, thanks for the support Imogen. Maybe with a bit more practice I can get that humor thing working.
We have 2 wonderful people on the public radio over here, Joe and Terry Graedon (sp?), who have a show called The People's Pharmacy. It comes on live very early Sat morning and I try to catch it whenever possible. They take phone calls where people express opinions and ask questions on anything pharmocological. The thing that makes them so wonderful is they make anyone, no matter how strange or wild the claim, feel at home and welcome while carefully explaining there is no support or occasionally why their suggestion may be dangerous. For those with the Sat morn public radio habit I think I am more like Tom Mariatzzi (sp?)that would be "Click" of "Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers". My wife says I am kiddin myself and that I am just a "grumpy old man". As to sainthood goodness, you think I had a swollen head before....
 DrO |
Debbie E
Member
Username: Deggert
Post Number: 183
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 12:53 pm: | |
Thanks Dr O and Imogen
The hard part about e-mail is the part where people cannot see or hear our intonations and they therefore, have to assume how we meant it. Believe me, even in person sometimes I can be taken as too straight forward and offend someone when I had no clue, so I know how that is.
I couldn't find it on the USEF website either, although I have heard trytophane will test. Who knows, I shouldn't be riled about it anyway since I agree with most that training and feeding and trust is what helps horses settle. I like the differnce of opinions I get on this site and from many other my associations. Thanks again, Debbie
ps. One day when we need some laughs, I will tell you all about the equine psychics out here!!!! |
