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Discussion on Refusing to stand
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Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 - 6:23 pm: |   |
Woody is a 7 year old Appendix. I've owned him for the last 3 and a half years. He used to have a rearing problem but I thought it had resolved with lots of circling, working off the legs, and teaching him to give to the bit. Up until last week, I stabled him and rode him in an arena, but last week I had to move him to my yard, which is in a town with horse trails around all the houses. I took him out once before I moved him (about 2 weeks ago) and he refused a forward cue, reared, and flipped over. Luckily unhurt, I stood and circled him around me tightly until he licked and chewed. I walked him most of the way back to the stable, then mounted the last block and rode the remainder of the way. I rode once after that in the arena without any problem. Then three days ago, I put him in a surcingle and long lines and went out on the trail with him. He started out going forward well, but when I halted him, he wanted to continue forward. I held him without jerking, just blocking so he backed or tried to turn around. I kept him forward. Finally, after halting for a moment and as I blocked him from going forward, he reared again and flipped over again.
Is is possible to train him to stand safely by sinking two posts in the ground 15 feet apart or so and standing him with his bridle and surcingle and long lines between the posts. The longlines would be secured to each post through the surcingle and perhaps another post ahead of him with a line to a slip through a halter (to prevent flipping) and have him stand there. If he reared, I could smack him on the belly or fore legs with a dressage whip as suggested in previous forums. What do you think as far as safety and success?
Thanks! |
Catherine McCourt
Member
Username: Kstud
Post Number: 57
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 - 7:01 pm: | |
Hi Sonya, I am not sure about the safety of that. Would it be possible to either ride or drive him in long reins forward for a considerable period of time ie until he is begging you to stop so that when you do ask him he is only too happy to comply. I have found that this has worked for rearing and bolting horses for me. It seems to be quite a shock to their system when they realise that you are dictating the pace and that they cannot take a break when they want, really makes them keen not to repeat it. Usual safety precautions apply and give yourself plenty of time and space. 200 acres of stubble field after heavy rain worked for one and a 4 hour hack for another at a smart forward pace with lots of canter. If you think the horse might hit the brakes and rear then bring someone on foot/ bike/ another horse with you as well with a long whip to urge them forward as soon as they try to slow down.
Catherine |
Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 - 10:37 pm: | |
Thanks Catherine,
I've been thinking about it all day, and I can't see my idea being too safe either. I was trying to come up with a way to work with the horse so he could safely realize it doesn't work. I'm just not willing to ride him at this point. He rears and flips without warning. Just like that, up and over. The sad thing is, he works beautifully in the arena when he is in his comfort zone. Unfortunately, I have to ask him to step out of his comfort zone a little to learn new things. I'm seriously considering the option of auctioning the horse and starting over. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16667
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 6:13 am: | |
Hello Sonya,
Even if you could make the above work I don't believe it will translate to the trail. There are two methods I would recommend. The first would be taking a horse along with you and seeing if this makes a difference with his behavior. With this method in time I would expect the horse to become braver and may translate to a horse that eventually do this on his own. The second is a method that someone on this board used successfully. They placed small food rewards along the way at distances less than it took the horse to become resistant. This probably works best if the horse is hungry. Though time consuming, it was not long before they reported the horse was looking forward to the ride. But you have hit the nail on the head when you ask, "how do you safely work with this horse?" This technique could be attempted from the ground however things my change or need reinforcement once you get back up, so still risky.
DrO |
Angie
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 757
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 7:43 am: | |
I have a 4 year old the had a rearing problem tied, leading and he wanted to do that ground driving also. Only fell back when tied, never did a flip over thankfully. But looked rather silly sitting down, with ropes tight, his nostrils squished from the halter being tight on his nose!
I think I'd do a few things with your horse: I'd make sure he knows how to stand tied without pulling. I'd make sure he understands voice cues on the lunge line, and moves forward freely. And I'd ground drive him in an enclosed area, and use the corners for rest.
At first heading to the corner and "WHOA" may not be pretty. He will try to go off both ways, and you have to stay on your toes keeping him facing the corner. The minute he stands, make sure to "drop" the lines.
You can not make him stand for more than a few seconds at first. If he knows "WHOA" always means whoa from the lunge line, it will help a lot here. But even then, he may be wondering why you are behind him and he must be able to see you to understand that he is to whoa here, and now, and it's o.k. that you are back there.
Eventually, you will be able to literally drop the lines, walk up and pet him and he'll be content to stand there.
There other thing may be he's not good with the bit yet, and you may need to do some more ground driving on the circle, with the inside rein going directly to your hand, and the out side rein thru the stirrups or surcingle.
If you feel these things are all going well, he may just need some arena review before you take him out in the open. He may just be very happy to be out and about, and not responding to you til you really get firm with him, and he reacts by over reacting.
Don't be afraid to drive him straight towards a big ol' tree, or anything to take advantage of a visual barrier for whoa.
If you are really, really, brave, you could, the next time he flips over, sit on his head. Hold him down....that is only if all the above review don't work.
I've never had to do that, but man, it's been tempting when you can't figure out why the blasted horse keeps doing what he's doing!!!
I don't think you'll need to go that route though, I think reviewing his training, perfecting his training before more outside the arena ground driving will help you.
Good luck!! |
Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 12:50 pm: | |
Angie, In the arena, both on his back and on the long lines, he hasn't reared high for at least a year, if not longer. Although he will pop up a bit now and then. Immediately, I circle him tightly until he gives well and moves off easily. He gives to the bit well, stopping well on WHOA on the lunge line, in the round pen, and in the arena. In fact, he long-lines beautifully in the arena. Although when I'm on his back, he gets a bit antsy at the stand if he is in a rounded frame, alert and ready to go. I've done a ton of walk, stop, then trot, stop, then canter,stop, etc, to get him to stand still. Cooling off, he's fine standing for a long time. He stands in the cross-ties well, but has had an issue before with explosive rearing when he doesn't like what's happening around him, like when I had to hose off a swollen leg once. He works beautifully with soft cues in the arena doing dressage stuff, but it has taken me an extreme amount of time and circles and groundwork to get him there. He has always resisted learning new things by popping up. I think Dr. O is right, so far the training hasn't translated itself to the trail and, although I've never been afraid of a horse, I'm not willing to risk my life training him. So unless there is some revolutionary way to treat rearing, I'm just going to have to get him to someone who is willing to put the time and risk into him. It just seems like it is his way of dealing with a stressor. |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: Amara
Post Number: 173
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 6:26 pm: | |
it sounds like this horse was never actually taught to stand... he learned to cope and not move his feet in a very similar environment, but i bet he moved something else-head, ears, lips, tongue, tail, something...the old saying "troubled minds move feet" is very true, and we humans sometimes making the mistake of thinking that all we need to do is stop the feet and we've fixed the problem...
if we dont stop the troubled mind we've done nothing at all, just put a band aid over the problem... as soon as you took him from his comfort zone all the coping mechanisms broke down...
you can try to redo the coping mechanisms by doing exactly what you did before.. it will probably take at least as long as it did the first time... if his responses werent so severe it might take less time, but he's lost all ability to cope, so you'd need baby steps to try to put everything back...
personally i dont like redoing coping mechanisms but instead go to the heart of the problem-lack of trust in you and the environment he's been put in...lack of trust can come out in many ways-fear, aggression, completely shut down, etc...he may try to be top dog, or may be the biggest underdog... all that is just his own personal "flavour", but it usually stems from not trusting or understanding what the human is doing...
is he a hard fix? dont know, havent seen him... is he fixable? absolutely.. would you feel safe with him after? depends on how you fixed it...
trying to tie him up as you thought earlier would probably make the whole thing worse... it might get better for a little bit, until you went into the next new situation and the coping mechanisms broke down and then it's all bad all over again...
food rewards or another horse-might work until you didnt have the food reward or the other horse anymore... you still havent treated the heart of the problem...
where are you located? |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16683
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 6:29 pm: | |
Cut off his front legs? Seriously, just today I found one of my clients with several fractured vertebrae from riding horses too green for his experience level. Considering his injuries it was easy to avoid the "I told you so" but there it was: his injuries were predicted.
DrO |
Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 - 11:32 pm: | |
Dr. O. Absolutely! And I don't want a broken neck!
Melissa, I've done lots of trust work with this horse, lunging in a round pen off line, waiting for licking and chewing, head drop, etc, allowing him to approach me. I actually do that almost every time I ride him. He trusts me fine until he doesn't want to do it. If it's going to take another three years of the same groundwork to get the horse to trust me all the time rather than most of the time, he isn't worth his feed to me. I spoke with my trainer today about it. After all, if it is my issue in how I trained him, I certainly need to learn something so the next one doesn't have the same problem. He has tended toward rearing as an escape since the beginning. But as I said, we worked out the issue (I thought) so he didn't rear for at least a year. He just started popping once or twice in the last month and then up and over twice in the last two weeks.
We are located in the Inland Empire, CA. |
Erika L
Member
Username: Erika
Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 11:19 am: | |
Sonya, I hope you are able to stay safe while working with this horse.
I am seeing two different problems, with the same result: First was when the horse refused to go forward and reared. This balking, in my experience is a common start to rearing. The horse needs to understand that leg (or whatever "forward" cue you are using) means "Go forward, NOW!"
This was taught to me by the retired US Cavalry colonel who mentored me as a child. In war situations, the horse needed to know that nothing ahead would hurt him more than the spurs he would get if he didn't go forward. sounds harsh to us modern riders, but it was a matter of life and death to them..and it worked.
I'm not saying spur him into going forward (that was just a tale I was told) but see if you can get some kind of cue that will produce a consistent forward response. A horse that is moving forward can't rear, he has to stop to do it.
As for when he is tied or standing, that I think is a completely different situation, even though the horse is reacting with the same behavior.
I'm sure you'll get some good ideas from others about that.
Good luck and be safe! |
Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 - 11:22 pm: | |
Erika,
Thanks for the input, and that goes for everyone. It wouldn't be a good site if there wasn't dialogue! I'm thinking it comes down to the fact the horse needs some extra training (moving forward and standing still) which I'm not willing to provide. That makes us unsuitable bedfellows... So wish me luck on finding a new home willing to work with him. Thanks again! |
Suzanne Reed
Member
Username: Sureed
Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 12:49 am: | |
Sonya,
Sometimes these horses have a history that we don't know about that causes these behaviors. They say it takes hundreds of repetitions to train a horse to do something right and only one bad experience to undo that training.
My own experience has taught me that there are some things we just can't fix and we need to be mindful of our own limitations and of our health and safety. I've ended up in the ER because of a horse that reared and flipped without warning and recently took a hard fall from a horse that spins when confronted with oncoming horses (though he is 11 and at one time was considered a packer).
Who knows what happened to these horses or yours in the past to make them behave this way? I don't like to give up either, but I think you have made the right decision.
Suzanne |
Sonya Harper
Member
Username: Soggy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 9:19 pm: | |
Suzanne,
Thanks for the encouragement and support. Regardless of his problem, I'll miss him! |
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