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Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 2:36 pm: |   |
I have a 7 y/o gelding who is aggressive with other geldings when in mixed herd. He was used as stallion for a couple of years, but has been gelded now for 2 years.
He is fine when pastured with all geldings, or with all mares. When in mixed herd, he will separate the mares and become very aggressive with the geldings. He takes on stallion behaviours such as running with head low to ground sniffing, and backing with ears pinned, etc. It is a dangerous situation for the geldings, as he will chase bite them anytime they get close. He is never aggressive with me, and I can walk right out in the middle of it, grab his halter and move him back with geldings only, and he is OK. He is great on the ground and great in the saddle with no aggressive behaviour whatsoever.
I think I have tried it all to no avail. Any suggestions please.
DT |
Dove2
Member
Username: Dove2
Post Number: 84
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 2:53 pm: | |
Do you need to have him in a mixed herd? |
Patricia Bell
Member
Username: Boomer
Post Number: 124
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
OMG, is hanging the head low and sniffing a stud behavior? I just posted something similar to your problem and believe it or not, my gelding is 7 and was only gelded a year ago when I got him! I noticed this head thing a while ago but thought either it was neurological or he was just a weird one. It isn't all the time but I bet that was it, a mare was in heat too at the time. Sorry to steal your post but the situation is so similar I had to say something. Mine also isn't aggressive to humans at all either. |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 287
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 3:07 pm: | |
Dove ..
This is a horse I would like to sell. I keep them separated now, but would not even consider selling him unless this is resolved. Wouldn't want the new owner to find out the hard way.
DT |
Linda S.
Member
Username: Banthony
Post Number: 166
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Dennis,
Unfortunately, this is typical gelding behavior. My gelding is 19 and was probably castrated as a yearling because he raced as a gelding when 2 years old.
He does the exact same thing. He cannot be in a mixed herd. He is fine with all mares or all geldings. He even gets along OK with our stallion tease pony.
But he does the whole herding - keeping mares in the corner - attacking other geldings behavior if in mixed company. We also have a 23 yr old gelding that does the same thing.
I don't think there is any cure. It is just natural herd behavior for some geldings. |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 3:43 pm: | |
I have one like this. I had two different geldings he went in with and he terrorized them both (with no mares around). I also had him in with 3 other visiting geldings and he terrorized them. I had to just divide my pasture with electric fence. Its all I could do.
After the older gelding passed away, I got two babies...about six months old. He likes to herd them around but only sporadically will lunge at them. I hope this stays the same as they get older. I heard that my horse (who was gelded at 3-ish and managed to get a mare pregnant before then) had a mom that died...I wasn't sure at what age she died. I just assumed that he might have been a bit abandoned as a baby. Oddly, he is an angel with his people ground manners. Whenever people see him they want to take him home...until of course he lunges at another horse in pasture and attempts to kill them.
If he does start messing with the 17 month old babies as they become more adult, I'll just have to put him in a different paddock.
One other thing. I turned him out in a ranch situation with about 20 other horses and oddly enough, he was like 16th in the pecking order...so I don't really get why he's crazy agressive with a couple of horses, but got his butt kicked by the herd... |
Melissa Boschwitz
Member
Username: Amara
Post Number: 175
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 5:14 pm: | |
just because a horse is a gelding does not take away the stallion type behaviors. a stallion only has more drive to do what he does, but pretty much the only thing different between the two is the ability to have kids...
it sounds like these geldings have dominant type personalities, along with a bit of dysfunction. in a herd with more dominant personalities (like when the one gelding was in a large herd), then he'll get relegated to wherever his personality lets him. the stronger the personality, the higher up in the pecking order. it is very natural for the dominant horse in the group to herd other horses in his "herd" and chase off (violently at times) horses that are not part of his herd. it's exactly what the horse would do in a real herd. he doesnt know its not what you want, because its pure instinct.
his dysfunction is what makes him do it abnormally. a little herding is appropriate, and running the outsider off is appropriate. once the herding is done, or the outsider is "out of his space" it is done and shouldnt continue. the dysfunction is probably why he got his butt kicked with the large herd as well. he didnt have a dominant enough personality to run the herd, but then he tried to run a part of it and the leader/leaders took offense to this. a well run herd should be very quiet.
as far as fixing..it's a long drawn out process and requires a whole lot of time and effort on your part.
or the easy way is to keep him with either horses he can dominate, or horses that totally dominate him and he gives up.. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16721
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 6:19 pm: | |
While there is some truth in everyones post none represent the whole picture. We discuss how gelding effects stallion-like behavior in Care for Horses » Management & Procedures » Castration in Horses. But that does not solve your problem Dennis. Ideally you would split the herd by sex as many do as a routine management procedure. Aggression in the pasture is tough because you are not there to correct. We have received several reports that a radio activated shock collar designed for horses has been effective at long time control of aggressive behavior in the pasture and may be a solution for you to consider. We have a new stallion that has integrated with some of our horses but distinctly does not like our gelding mule, we are considering this option ourselves if they cannot work it out.
DrO |
Diane Edmonds
Member
Username: Scooter
Post Number: 411
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 7:38 pm: | |
Hi Dennis I have one gelding that use to behave like this, until accidentally I aquired a dominant gelding. He behaved with gelding and mares, but he was the boss, still is. He put the aggressive gelding in his place, and I have had peace in my mixed herd since. Do you know someone that has a dominant, yet not aggresive gelding you could borrow? Sometimes these kinds need a good butt wupping from another horse. I'll lease you my guy , but not for very long, as he is my peace keeper. |
Nicole Tucker
Member
Username: Tuckern
Post Number: 105
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Sep 26, 2006 - 7:57 pm: | |
I have a similar story as Diane.
I took care of a friend's horses for the entire month of August while she went on vacation. One of her geldings is very aggressive to her other two geldings, to the point that she's had to separate them.
Well, while they were at my house, I did supervised turnouts with my horses, at first to see how they'd do, but by the end was doing it because it was good for all.
By the end of the month, my gelding, who is usually laid back, had the aggressive gelding put in his place.
My gelding is all of 14.2hh and maybe 1000lbs, so it was humorous to see a 17+hh, 1400lb horse running from him. But I'm sure the reason my gelding acted this way, was because "his mare" was out there too, and he didn't want the outsiders having anything to do with her. :0)
Nicole |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 288
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 4:24 pm: | |
Diane and Nicole ...
I have tried that, even took him in with a large palomino stud I had at the time. This little guy is a little over 14h, but he flat out kicked the stallions butt. I haven't found another gelding who will stand up to him when in the herd. The mares will kick him around a little bit, but the geldings just run.
DrO .. I have thought about that device, but didn't think it practical due to price, and the fact that you have to be around to catch it. Didn't know if it would be effective if only used when I'm around. Let me know if you try this with any success.
For now, I just keep them separated. But as I said, he is a horse I would sell, but wouldn't do so without telling the prospective buyer about this problem, so probably couldn't sell. He's a great horse, but at 6'2" and 225 lb, a little small for me.
DT |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 16735
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 6:01 pm: | |
Usually this type behavior occurs when the horses are first put together and it was surprising how few corrections resulted in a change in behavior at least that is what they report. But if it happens intermittently and you find it hard to catch the behavior you may be right.
DrO |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 6:36 pm: | |
Dennis, Dennis, Dennis . . . I have the answer to all your frustrations . . . he's 12.2h and thinks he's 10 feet tall . . . as studdy as they come . . . full of p$#s and vinegar . . . expert at putting bigger geldings in their assigned seats . . . and the bonus is that he will fit right in with your color scheme!
. . . when can I ship him to you? |
Dennis Taylor
Member
Username: Dtranch
Post Number: 289
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 7:41 pm: | |
Holly .. looks like just the ticket. Send him on over, and may the best man win!
And, you are so right about the color scheme.
DT |
Susan Jeys
Member
Username: Sjeys
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 10:52 pm: | |
I would certainly tell the buyer, as you plan to do, but I don't think for most serious horse shoppers, its a show stopper. Most amateur horse owners keep their horses in a community barn or a professional's barn where they take lesssons. The horse is typically in a 12 x 12 stall 20 or so hours a day, ridden for an hour and then maybe a couple hours of turnout...that's the typical situation I've run into when I boarded at four different barns in 2 different states. Either the horses (unfortunately) have a very short turn out time, or they all have small individual paddocks they get for a longer time or the owners understand that not all horses can be turned out together. This isn't uncommon, for a horse to be turned out only with a certain sex or type of horse. Usually the folks at a barn who do the turnout will welcome the info and make adjustments. With horses, every horse is an exception in some way or other  . |
Linda Lashley
Member
Username: Lhenning
Post Number: 147
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 3:20 pm: | |
Not sure about the electric collars for horses, but I use them on my dogs with an underground fence. They first have to be trained to them under supervision. I would guess for horses you would do the same and only use the collar when you are nearby, then take it off. When Mr. Aggressive gets near his intended victim . . . zap. It does not take the dogs long to figure out they don't want to go in the area that causes the shock. Horses are very good at learning from experience so I would guess the same applies to them. I've heard of them used successfully for teaching horses not to kick in their stalls. It's training through negative reinforcement. You might be able to justify the expense if you could think of other ways to use it. |
