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Discussion on Discipline for spooking?
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Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2001 - 10:58 pm: |   |
Is it appropriate to discipline a horse for spooking? My 5 year old QH gelding bolts/sometimes rears and spins when I'm on his back in both the arena and on the trail. When my trainer is on him, he does this less. Obviously he senses her confidence level is greater than mine. But my question is, what is the appropriate way to address this? Do I circle around and make him face his fear? Do I punish him for the bolting or rearing? |
JM (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2001 - 11:29 pm: | |
Excellent question. I have been told differing things by different people. ARRRGH...
I have a TB. When she spooks I was told to let her be. Don't make an issue out of it and don't make her address her fears. Just move her head off the item she is afraid of and just side pass it if necessary. Don't reprimand, just pretend it never happened.
On the other hand, with my QH many have told me address the fear, make her see from the left, do it again on the right, circle it. And don't let her get the best of you.
Could their personalities be SO different?
Quite honestly, I do neither. I take the situation as it comes. I do bring both nearer to the thing in question or at times I totally ignore it, or just trying to settle them is enough for me. Some times I make them stand near the thing that spooked them. Sometimes, if getting off your horse is needed than do it.
I do find that my TB learned quickly that if she spooked, she could get me off easily. Or she will spook because she is tired and bored and wants to go in. It took a while but i got her number (faking it) on this score. At these times, i reprimand her. But only you know when this is happening.
This is a good question. I hope a few trainers or behaviour experts add their thoughts on this.
Rearing and bolting is UN-acceptable, though. I would think you have a big problem on your hands with that. And If you can't control his bolting, than you might want to go back to the beginning lessons to see where you can teach him to spook or allay his fears but in place. They can be fearful thats just natural, but they need to be confident in you that you aren't going to kill them. That is where the bolting and rearing comes in. They don't trust you, want you off, cause you are stopping them from doing what they want. JMO on this.
jo |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 5:21 am: | |
Hello All,
I think the best response comes from understanding the nature of the problem. If a horse truly spooks at something, you know the feeling....like electricity has passed through him and you, then discipline, say like a crop between the ears is not appropriate and may reinforce the idea that there is something to be spooked about.
But as to bolting, rearing, and spinning these do need appropriate corrective measures that first focus on regaining control even if this means dismounting and lunging with an emphasis on controlled forward motion and halt. As the behavior is going on I think some amount of negative stimulus to get the horses attention is appropriate after some degree of contol is achieved. As an example...
Last week while riding in the countains I was working a 3 year old that at the beginning of the ride was refusing to go forward on the trails. This horse had some lunge and ring work under saddle had showed no problems in the arena. His avoidance was light rearing and backing when asked to go forward. Not good in the mountains and he had a penchant for trouble on narrow trails with steep drop offs. When this occurred I would dismount, walk him to the closest field, tie two long leads together and lunge using a tree limb or dressage crop.
I would eventully get the same behavior on the lunge and the horse would learn, with the help of the crop, in this order: clucks MEANT forward, walk MEANT walk, whoa MEANT whoa, and backing up when he was suppose to be doing any of the above was a sure way to get switched even if it meant backing all the way across the field: he was switched until he stood.
It only took three sessions, one at the beginning of the first 3 rides with each session easier than the last. For the last 4 rides all I have had to do is touch his rump with the crop when he begins to throw a fit and he responds with going forward. They are getting less and less frequent.
I admit to having to do a little desensitization with this horse: each day I spend a lot of time letting him know I am his buddy until he seems relaxed. Before each ride the crop is introduced as his friend and associated with rubbing and lots of good boys and he is rubbed all over with it until he relaxes. I think he is going to be OK.
DrO |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 7:42 am: | |
Hi, guys,
Just as different people have the ability to distinguish subtle nuances of language and others don't, so do some horses have the thought processes to distinguish between the danger posed by a plastic bag and others do not.
The horse should never be disciplined for spooking. Some horses just "see more" and tend to react by startling. They have to have a second to process whether or not the newspaper hanging from the mailbox is going to hurt them.
On the other hand, turning away from the scary object and refusing to go forward off your forward cue are unacceptable actions putting the horse in control of the rider. After giving the frightened horse the second or two he needs to see the object, he needs to respond to your cue to advance. Turning a horse away from what frightens him or allowing him to head back the way you came only reinforces the fear and makes it twice as difficult when you approach the object the next time.
By holding the rein closest to the object and turning your horse to face his boogey man everytime you ride, your horse will learn to spook in place and face his fears. I have found one rein also discourages a horse from rearing, especially when accompanied by STRONG forward cues from both legs. In my experience, crops often exacerbate the situation, but if the horse is totally comfortable with the crop and understands its purpose, as Dr. O. has done with his horse, then it can help with the forward cue if you need more than leg.
One rein and forward, one rein and forward. The forward can first just be that the horse is leaning forward and seeing the object head on. Then, when the horse has come to his senses, the forward cue has to definitely mean, "take a forward step."
I'm not a proponent of having a horse go over to touch the thing he is afraid of, since that does seem to be making more out of the situation than is necessary. After he is moving forward off your leg, you can start with a clean slate and continue your ride.
If your horse is uncommonly fearful of everything it sees, have its eyes checked, and if the eyes are okay, do "spook-proofing" in the ring with someone else to help you by waving umbrellas, grain bags, thumping buckets, or just setting up a trail-type ring class for you to practice. It is important that you are proficient with being able to shorten your rein on the scary side quickly and almost subconsciously. Keep your shoulders back behind your hips when you do it so your tail stays in the saddle. Tails out of saddles, especially with a spooky horse, are not good things.
Holly |
Alicia Kost (Aannk)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 9:58 am: | |
Hi. I have a 5 year old who has always been spooky. He is a warmblood TB mix. He used to bolt from the spooky things, and most things spooked him. In particular, he would go past a tree outside the arena several times, then, by majic, he would suddenly be afraid of it, which was very frustrating. I took him for professional training. The trainer said he used the spooking to get out of thinking, as he is very immature for his age. So, the trainer would make him work harder after a spook with more transitions and a longer work time. I found after I got him home that he no longer ran off on a spook, but kind of veered away from the scary thing. Also, I found that he no longer spooked at inappropriate things, but really only when he can't see around something. Outside, he is much better. Inside, we have long doors that are usually halfway open, and he can't see around them. When I have a person stand in the doorway, he is fine. So, anyway, what I do is to make him go forward and ignore his spooking. I eventually ask him to bend inside and flex at the jaw, as I find that relaxes him. If I do this at the start of a ride, he gets better and better. If I overract and get angry, he gets worse, which supports the something to fear theory. |
Jackie Dayman (Becky)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 6:32 pm: | |
I do believe that in some spooking cases, discipline/reaction is called for. The reason is that the horse stopped paying attention to the rider and put more importance on an outside influence. However I only would apply this to a well-trained horse who should know better. My show mare tended to be spooky rather than outright defiant. And this would even be at home passing an object she had seen many times before. I agree to not make any bigger deal than it takes to get past the object. But I do ask that she get back on the bit and it that doesn't work, a nudge with the heel or even a spur gets her attention back to me. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM (Dro)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 6:59 am: | |
I think Jackie and Alicia make valid points: horses tend to spook because they have too much time to worry about what is happening around them and they have quit thinking so much about listening to the rider. You all have seen these horses that chronically spook on the trail, they appear to be looking for something to bugger at. The rider can decrease the incidence by giving the horse something else to think about: practice gait transitions, lateral movements, etc.
DrO |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 8:04 pm: | |
One rein -- asking the horse to give to the pressure of the bit and come to you with his head and mind, is asking for discipline. Asking the horse to move forward on your forward cue, (mine is both legs behind the girth and/or a verbal cue) is asking for discipline, also. At the same time the rider is asking for disciplined behavior from the horse, the horse is being disciplined with cues he understands. Both actions will, in my experience with bucking, rearing, backing at 30 miles an hour, jigging, and generally inattentive to the rider horses, will keep you safer than any other method I've found, and will train your horse to face the spooky object, and after facing it, move past it (only at a walk, please, so the horse doesn't learn to run past the scary things). I think there may be a problem with semantics in our use of the word "discipline."
Holly |
Linda Antipala (Alika)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 10:03 pm: | |
I'm also a believer in one rein, especially since I ride in a sidepull (actually an English scrawbridge and really like it). Here's my spooking scenario. Just yesterday went off myself down the road from pasture. Arab mare stops dead in tracks to assess a rustling in the tall grass. Give her about a minute to stare at whatever, then one rein her away from point of interest and give go forward with kiss and leg squeeze. So I'm not turning her toward the spooky whatever in the bushes, I'm letting her look then turning away and forward. A little further down and she decides to turn for home. One rein around in direction she wants to go, but making full circle to face where I want to go. It's not a pretty circle, lots of side-stepping - but we do end up headed in my desired direction, another kiss and squeeze and forward we go. My one rein works, but away and around, not toward. Question. What are members thoughts about petting and reassuring during a spook stop. Some training books say do not pet or talk nicely because that's rewarding them for spooking. Other trainers say pet and reassure. I go with the latter, as my mare is a sensitive gal who really listens to my voice. What works for you? |
chris martin (Mnchrist)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 10:22 pm: | |
I have a spooky pony who is a go go machine. I have been working for 8 weeks on 1 rein stops with him. He looks for spooks. One thing with him is that it is an excuse not to listen. When I do the one rein stop he stops and I hold his head in the turn direction until he gives to the pressure...sometimes may take 20 seconds. He bobs his head and he's signaling me OK I'll listen. He tried to back and rear away from a door that he hates (we've only been by and and through it 100 times), but I nipped him in the bud with the 1 rein stop. He walked through it several times and anytime he tried ANYTHING I 1 rein stopped him. It ends the pony moments and tantrums. absolutely great technique for spooks. With my walker, I just have to talk him through it, he truely knows that I am looking at the same spooky thing and if I say it is ok, he's ok too. He rarely spooks. He'll walk by anything once I've told him it's ok. Great horse! |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 11:12 pm: | |
Linda,
I understand your philosophy about the one rein and moving away from the spooky object. You obviously know your horse and can keep her with you by turning her away, then back. In my experience, it works best to ask the horse to NOT turn away from the object, mostly because a spooking horse's initial response is to FLEE AWAY, and I want the horse to know that is not an option, even at the start of the spook. The final result will be a horse that may startle, even start to turn away, but will turn toward the object on his own with only a slight cue on the rein closest to the spooky thing. By asking your horse to continue the whirling away from the object, you put yourself in more danger of coming off when the horse whirls and/or pivots. You obviously have a great seat!
Hmmm. Patting and reassuring the horse. . . I'd have to say that it depends first on the immediate safety of the horse and rider. Sometimes there is no time to pat and reassure. For example, when riding on the road when a car is coming up behind, but there is something scary happening in the field on your right. You have to keep hold of your right rein and ask for forward because your life depends on it. After the horse responds, then you can say, "Good girl!! What a good girl you are!" If we are alone on the trail, and the horse sees a bear or a moose, then I may have time to say, "Oh, you silly horse. It's okay; it's just a moose. Come on; let's go." In most of the spooky situations I have encountered, it is first and most important that I maintain control of the horse's position in relation to the spooky object. If there is time for patting and reassuring, it is not just to calm the horse about the object, but to reward the horse for the correct response to my cues to turn toward the spooky thing and stand. If you get the horse's body to respond first to your cues, then you can get his mind to listen. When horses spook, they aren't thinking; they are reacting, so it is important to have control of their physical bodies first, then you can get their minds to come to you.
It is easier to gauge what your response should be if you know your horse and can read his response. If you are riding a horse you don't know very well, I recommend one rein toward the object and the forward signal to prevent the horse from thinking about going backwards.
Holly |
Daryl Kreager (Daryl)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 12:15 am: | |
Hi,
I am new to this site so when not if Imake gross errors please help.I just wanted to add that the Aug.edition of Equus has what I think is a good
article on building a better trail horse which covers spooking.
Daryl |
Linda Antipala (Alika)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 1:50 pm: | |
Hi Holly, thanks for your excellent response. I am very fortunate in that my horse does not whirl or bolt with a spook. Her response is to stop and stare, even if the spooky thing (a cow in neighbor's pasture) is moving toward us. If a car is coming up behind us, she likes to turn and stare at the car until it passes. That's why I let her look, think about it, and then turn her away. Or if something pops out unexpectedly (like a bird flying up, a wild pig running across the trail), she will take a few quick spooky side steps and then continue on. I do know horses who spook, spin and bolt and that is very very scary. I'm lucky to have my steady little trail girl. Guess my biggest challenge is that "let's go home now" dance, but we're working on it. Practicing one-rein stops in the arena and we're getting pretty good. She brings her head right around, slows and stops consistently. It's a very good safety device and I need to practice it out on the trail more often. Thanks again for your reponse! |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 5:34 pm: | |
For a true spook, I think it is best to basically ignore it and try to ride through it as best as you can. I define a spook as anything from a loss of concentration and pause to a sharp turn and run away. There are assorted degrees in between. A spook is a fear response to something scarey to the horse. By trying to halt a spook, you might get a rear in response to a lot of mouth pressure. I prefer to keep the horse moving (that satifies his urge to flee) but do so in a controlled manner.
Often, if you are alert, you can anticipate a spook by both the way a horse changes its movement, twitches its ears or cranes its neck. You can feel the tension through your seat. There is a moment of opportunity to distract the horse and make a new request - I like a shoulder-in, shoulder-fore or small circle away from the spooky object. Many western riders "disengage" the hind end - basically get the horse moving a bit sideways so the 4 hooves are not 100% aligned. The disengaging sort of slows the horse a bit and makes him a little less able to tear off or rear up.
The more you can relax and ride through a spook, as if nothing happened, the more your body will tell the horse it is no big deal and let's continue. If you can keep the horse's mind busy on his work with lots of different requests, he'll be less likely to spoke, too, as you are occupying his mind. (You know that old saw about "an idle mind is the devil's playground?")
All this assumes you have good basics established - go, whoa, turns, proper seat, etc. It often helps with green horses to work on basics in the arena or on the lunge before setting out on the trail.
I would continue to work on schooling basics with the thought of improving the horse's confidence and responsiveness to you. A confident, responsive horse is less likely to over react and will listen to his rider sooner when he does. He will also learn to trust his rider.
Since spooks are a fear response, I agree that you should make your responses as fearless and assured as possible.
Young horses take time to develop. Some may always have a bit of an edge to them, but many of us like that when we can channel it to our purposes.
Sometimes a horse balks at an object in fear - i.e. stops and stares and won't move. Often you can turn him and reapproach and get a little closer. This may take several successive turns, getting closer each time. When you are "away" and in the horse's comfort area, sit quietly and let him think about it each time. Then move forward, again. A balk is also a response to fear - don't pet or soothe, merely give the horse time to figure it out and develop some bravery. Often a more secure horse can give yours a lead, showing him that the object is not really all that bad.
Cheers. |
Elizabeth Anderson (Liza)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 2, 2001 - 4:15 am: | |
If you live in or near NC, GA or FL, come to a clinic by Tek Marciniak for despooking your horse. He is a nationally certified mounted police trainer who holds clinics for civilians.
I've signed up for the clinic outside Raleigh, NC and will pass on what we learn if I make it through. We learn the same methods used by the mounted police who of course need to be able to take their horses through every situation possible.
You can read more about him at www.tekmarciniak.com or www.nchorsenews.com
Chris-if I can do this, you should join me!
Liz Anderson |
Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 2:28 pm: | |
Thanks to everyone for the excellent advice. I have been spending a lot of time with Stormy on the ground, just walking around finding scary things to look at. He jumps out of his skin at the first sight or noise, but I just keep walking and totally disregard his action. He then realizes that "Oh! That was not a scary thing!". the next time around he still gives it a funny look and by the third time it's a nonexistent thing. There is an outhouse at our stable that he was convinced would come alive and get him. (That is the thing that made him rear, spin and bolt when I was on him.) He is now so comfortable around it (while I'm on the ground)that I think he might want to use it! LOL I have not been riding him again as he is in training for the next 30 days and the trainer suggested that she be the sole rider for 30 days. The second 30 days will be both of us and the after that will be me with her coaching.
I am so anxious to get back on!!!
Any thoughts on this: I noticed that she will leave him tied at the bar (halter, no bridle) with the saddle on for extended periods of time (hours). She says it teaches him patience. He has access to water of course. Maybe its my lack of knowledge in training horses, or the mother in me, but I feel so bad for him just standing there!
Thanks again for everyone's comments.
Christy |
Karen Blan (Starzmom)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 3:01 pm: | |
Hi, I am late getting in on this discussion but have a quick question regarding spooking. My calm sensible QH mare spooked badly this morning under saddle and I ended up going one way and her the other. Ouch. So, as I write this from bed with a heating pad and muscle relaxers (feeling old and decrepid)...well, here is the question. Star is not a spooky horse, she was genuinely terrified this morning, and I have noticed that the horses are very wary about this...and that is bicylclists. The neighborhood has tons of cyclists..the serious tour de france type that cycle through. I have noticed the horses run to the bottom of the pasture that runs alongside the road when they see a pack of them with a mixture of curiousity and challenge. It is like they cannot figure them out. They move fast and facsinate them. Cars, trucks...they do not pay attention to. Even the four wheeler next door they do not pay attention to. A cyclist came up on Star this morning and caused her to spook and it wasn't the usual lock joints in all fours and tighten up that she does when we unexpectedly come across a deer, or even when we came up on a wild boar!!!!
She did this,but then she sidestepped several feet sideways (and I swear she did not touch the ground) This I was not prepared for (shame on me) and I came flying off. She ran halfway up the pasture...which is also unusual for her...and stayed there.
So, I am wondering if anyone has any insight as to why bicyclists have this bizarre effect on them...none have ever physically bothered them. |
Ann Cohrs (Apcohrs)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 4:23 pm: | |
Bicycles, baby strollers, and umbrellas are classic horse frighteners. I have no clue why these and not garbage can lids, etc. |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 8:12 pm: | |
I think it might be that whirrrring noise the tires on those types of bicycles make on pavement. Horses seem to hear things much more acutely than we do, but I have noticed when they have passed me at a fast clip they send out an unusual sound. I had some racers come at me on my horse in a national forest (allowed in certain areas), around a bend and caught us all by surprise. When they slammed on their brakes and slid in the gravel toward me, my horse gracefully sidestepped off the trail and let them pass. It was me who was scared to death! Then further up the trail a large group of wild turkeys flew up in front of us..She stood her ground. I have spent a lot of time with her over the years and I have been the ONLY one.. I have really noticed the trust that can be built with a horse when it is just you and them, always. Of course it takes time and patience and a willingness to work through it all , but the rewards are worth it. I think all the advice above on spooking is great. I have always tried to minimize to myself an object my horse is afraid of, and they seem to pick up on it, I don't let them turn around and I usually say "It's Okay"" Go on" When they go on , I say "good girl" or(boy) with a pat on the neck. It has worked for me for years and several horses. I also always started a young horse (3) going on the trail with an older, secure horse and that is something I feel really teaches the most in the beginning. Every horse we ever did that with turned into a great trail horse . |
Karen Blan (Starzmom)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 9:34 pm: | |
Actually, at this point I am thinking she may have been stung by a bee. The yellow jackets have been out in force in the neighborhood this week and several neighbors have ended up with bad stings. It is just so unlike her to spook like that...she was genuinely terrified. She would have come back down to check out why I was lying on the ground...for her to be more scared than curious is completely out of charachter. |
Karen Blan (Starzmom)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 5, 2001 - 9:42 pm: | |
The other factor...and I may be grasping here....there have been two coyotes hanging out in the neighborhood (yes, residential neighborhood...not middle of the country..bizarre)
The horse owner next to us has seen them around her barn and pasture and they have killed three of her cats. Our horses stay out 24/7 this time of year. I am wondering if this has put them on edge? It sure would put me on edge. Do coyotes pose a threat to horses??? |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 6, 2001 - 2:01 am: | |
We have coyotes in our area also. I keep my cats in until about 8 in the am, as several neighbors have lost cats. The coyotes around here are usually running solo, but I have heard they will go after foals if there is two or more. I know of no one who has had that experience, however, but I believe it is not unlikely. A mature horse should be able to defend itself. There are a lot of stories out there, even about dogs running horses to exhaustion, but , thankfully, I have no personal knowledge. None of the coyotes around me have ever bothered my horses. Small dogs, cats and chickens seem to be the animals at risk. By the way, I think a bee sting could send the calmest horse into escape mode.. Look for it.. they usually swell really big! Good Luck |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 6, 2001 - 11:39 pm: | |
In perusing all the letters in this particular category, I have a couple of thoughts:
#1) I don't know if leaving a horse standing tied for hours teaches him patience, but it probably teaches him to stand tied for hours. I am hoping he is always under supervision while he is standing tied; never out of sight of the trainer. If there are times when you need to have your horse stand tied to a trailer or a hitching rail or a picket for hours, then your horse is getting training in that area. Other than that, I don't know why a horse would need to learn patience. A horse needs to learn how to respond to the cues the handler/rider is using in order for him to be the safest, most pleasurable horse to be around.
#2) My theory on horses' responses to baby strollers/carriages, bicyclists and umbrella carrying people is that horses can make out the partial form of a human when they look at each of the above, but they can't process the rest of the information such as the gliding motion, or mushroom-like shape growing out of someone's hand. If you are interested in horse psychology, read Oskar Pfungst's "Clever Hans." It helped me understand how very much horse's depend on their sight and how amazingly keen is their sight and their ability to pick up the slightest motions involved in body language. The body language of cyclists, baby strollers and umbrella carriers just doesn't compute unless the horse is in a situation in which they can come in close, regular contact with such occurances. Most of the horses I use at camp are wonderful about staying sane around campers wearing huge, paper-mache masks, flag-carrying campers and umbrellas. Most of them never flinch at bicyclists, BUT if the cyclist is coming from behind, the horse often doesn't see him until the cyclist is right opposite the horse, passing the horse with a whizzing sound of the wheels. I usually tell people to say something before they pass the horse, just so the horse can process the information and not react in fear. If I see the strollers, cyclists and umbrella carriers first, I usually yell a "Hello" and take a moment to stop and chat with the folks, so the horse can process that these ARE people and not some dangerous, horse-eating mutants. Non-horse savvy folks really have no concept of what kinds of things will spook a horse. It's helpful to educate as many of them as we can.
Holly |
Christine C. Mills (Chrism)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 7, 2001 - 9:45 am: | |
Just a comment -
Horses can be conditioned to accept something in a specific context. So, a horse may accept a bicycle going by his pasture and not make much of it. But, on a trail, the bicycle is "out of context" so he spooks. Accepting bicycles in any context is a higher level of conditioned learning.
Horses should be conditioned from all lines of vision to scarey things - otherwise you may get a spook from the right side from something that was perfectly acceptable from the left side.
So, for training horses should get a variety of exposures in a variety of locations to "get over" something.
As far as dealing with your own injuries from a fall:
DO NOT USE heat for the first 48 hours! HEAT encourages more swelling, discomfort, etc.
USE ICE frequently for the first 48 hours. Remember RICE - Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation for injuries, depending on the location.
Once the initial trauma/swelling is done, alternating heat with ice is appropriate for aiding the healing process.
Years ago, a nurse suggested alternating Tylenol (acetomyophin - spelling?) with Advil (ibuprofen - spelling?), 2 hours apart. This was explained to me to work on 2 diffent pain type receptors and to give a near narcotic effect for pain relief without the dope - also, the ibuprofen is helpful for reducing inflammation.
I'm not in the human medical field, so you should check with your doc as to whether this is appropriate for your situation.
Cheers. |
Elizabeth Jopp (Lizjopp)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 8, 2001 - 1:48 pm: | |
Wow, what a fantastic discussion. I am sorry I am getting in late on it. I have to report that I have tried both discipline (in the form of yelling, spurring, hitting) and not reacting. I hate to admit it but I was originally taught as a youngster to smack a horse who spooks. It never really worked, because the horse just reacted less violently, BUT never got OVER his fear.
Now, as an adult and with a normal, nice trainer, I have learned to ignore the spooky thing and act like it hasn't happened, but I do "discipline" rearing, bucking, bolting, balking (all of which my horse does) by doing the things Chris M mentioned, shoulder-in, haunches-in, lateral movements of all types. I tend not to turn the horse toward the spooky thing per se, but I may pass by it a few times, each time he relaxes more. He is six and he was much worse at 5 so I know we are improving.
The thing I have really had to learn with the spooking and the balking is PATIENCE. I have learned that if I act is though I have all day to deal with the issue, whatever it may be, I have a much higher success ratio than if I am in a rush. AND if I don't have time to deal with it, I usually get off and show my horse that the scary thing isn't so bad by leading him near, over (bridge) or by the object. That is a way to sort of "win the battle" so to speak without any excess pressure on your horse or you. I have had a great time reading this discussion, it has helped me so much.
Liz |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 8, 2001 - 2:28 pm: | |
I was wondering if anyone has had the "going through water" refusal. I had a horse that seemed to be genuinely afraid of water and I worked hard to get her used to it. One day we came to a wide stream and she said "I don't think so"and tried to turn around. I decided if she didn't want to walk forward through it, perhaps she would back through it and when I asked her to back up , she did . We backed to the middle of the stream, she took a drink and we walked forward out. We walked back and forth through the sstream several times and it was the end of her ever refusing to go through water again. She was six years old then and she is now twenty. |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 8, 2001 - 11:21 pm: | |
Liz and Chris,
I agree with keeping a horse responsive to cues during a spook; communicating with and controlling the horse's body when we are around him is imperative for safety, but not all riders, especially the trail riders with whom I come in contact, understand the more intricate and specific cues and responses for shoulder-in, haunches-in, etc.; they are just on a walk, trot, canter trail ride. The most reliable method of controlling a horse is to use one rein and keep the horse's nose where the rider wants it. For the majority of trail riders, this will save them the stress of wondering if they will be able to handle whatever comes down the track while they are on their horses. Around here I am appalled at how many adults and children ride in weekly lessons at well-respected, local establishments, but have no idea how to keep their horses from running away on the trail, or away from dogs, or even running away in the ring. As John Lyons has said, if you can control even ONE part of your horse's body, you can keep the whole body where you want it. The nose is the easiest part for most of us to control.
Lynne, in my horse experience I have dealt with many horses that refuse to step in puddles of any size. The worst horse is a little, grey Arabian mare that was on the way to the meat market. Her escape method was always to slide backwards and/or rear. I never thought of backing her through, although it may have worked for her. She would have found that her normal escape route resulted in her doing what she didn't originally want to do, and that may have cured future refusals to go forward into water.
What I did with her was keep her facing the puddle (it was a huge area of flooded trail; the swamp on either side of the dirt road overflows every spring and covers about 25 feet of road and is almost up to the horses' knees in places) and not allow her to turn around or go into reverse. As long as she didn't offer to go back, I just kept giving her firm forward cues with my legs and verbal cue. Whenever she even leaned forward or offered to reach her nose forward and down, I would cease cuing her and give her lots of praise. If she offered to go backwards, my forward cues would become more firm and would not cease until she gave forward motion (even a reaching forward of her nose to look at the puddle was enough to get a couple of seconds of relief from the forward cues) at which time she would get a couple of seconds reprieve and praise. If she tried to turn away to the left, I held a short right rein. If she tried to turn away to the right, I held a short left rein. her nose had to stay facing the puddle. She asked several times to put her nose down and get a closer look. I had to trust her by letting out all the rein and ceasing all forward cues until her head came up again. She was really trying to get a sense of how safe it was. Many of us are afraid to let the reins out when we are on a horse that is trembling in fear and wanting to turn around and bolt or fly backward or rear. We have to be willing to trust them; that they will choose the right thing and follow our instruction. She tested the water by pawing a few times, but I had to ask again for forward motion when she decided she didn't want to go in. By not allowing her to turn away or go back, and by not ceasing to ask for forward motion, she gave up and stepped in, then walked through the whole "puddle." You can imagine how much praise she received on the way through and when she got on the other side. Of course, she had to repeat the process on the way home, but only gave the slightest hesitation before sniffing the puddle, pawing and stepping in. Since then, she will sometimes halt quickly, throw her head up and think for a couple of seconds when she sees a puddle ahead, but she has never refused to go through a puddle since then. She does like to sniff the puddles first and sometimes paw in them for a couple of times to satisfy her curiosity about their depth, but she has become a very good little trail horse.
Holly |
Debra McAlister (Debmc)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 13, 2001 - 7:23 am: | |
What a fascinating discussion! I've been riding around an inner city park for over 10 years now, usually on very well mannered horses, but there are some things that even the quietest horses don't like.
Sounds issuing from small wheels (eg rollerblades tic tacking on the pavement, strollers etc). I think these must sound like evil predators rustling in the bushes.
People doing stretching exercises on a railing near the horse track. Horses are always reading body language, and I think they read trouble when they see people stretching their bodies in unusual shapes.
People doing exercise in unison, as a group, especially jogging in unison. Could this be a pack of wolves?????
Rustling noises from shrubs or grass where they can't see.
leaves (plastic bags, papers etc) blowing in the wind... Monstrous shapes....
Even the quietest horse can react to these on a bad day! I think the forward aids work best, and a little distracting brain work (shoulder in etc) if timed correctly, can do the trick. And avoiding boredom at all costs, is the best preventative.
What I really hate is that electicity feeling. I find it very hard not to jump a mile myself! |
Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2001 - 12:29 am: | |
I just got kicked off MSN so if this message posts twice, I apologize.
Holly, with the one rein, are you suggesting that if my horse bolts/rushes when spooking that I pull his head around with one rein to make him stop?
You also commented on being reluctant to "give him the reins". Are you suggestion I should let him bolt a few steps and then stop him?
He has always stopped for me, but sometimes with more effort than others. He is in a Tom Thumb bit. Should I consider a curb with a low port?
Sometimes he pulls the sides of the snaffle shank into his mouth and chews on it. It drives me crazy.
Sometimes he also starts grinding his teeth. Is this a nervous thing or a boredom thing? Usually its accompanied by some jigging so I think its probably a nervous thing. |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2001 - 3:14 pm: | |
Hi, Christina,
It's been a while since this discussion took place, so I had to go back and reread everything to see in what context you are asking the questions.
Your question:
If the horse is bolting or spooking, should I pull his head around to make him stop?
Answer:
If the horse is increasing his speed without a defininte cue from you, whether out of fear or out of his own desire, I have found that using one rein will keep the horse from running off or away from where I want him to be. Initially, a horse who is unfamiliar with the one rein control system, may start off on his own again as soon as he feels a release of the rein which the rider should give when you have him slowed down to the desired speed or turned around in the correct direction. I have found that with consistent practice(and that may be 50 or more times on a trail ride) that the horse will eventually understand that one rein back will require him to bend his body and slow down and it is a lot more work than keeping his body straight and just slowing down on a tightening of both reins. Since many horses have learned to ignore the "whoa" cue by leaning on the bit and jigging or running ahead with their chins up in the air or down on their chests, the riders feel that they need to use heavier, more severe bits or stronger pulls on the reins in order to get a response. If the horse learns that ignoring a light tightening of pressusre in the mouth is going to result in him having to bend his body and move forward on a tight circle to slow down before he can feel a release from the pressure in his mouth, it will eventually take only a light presssure on one rein to get him to slow his pace or give the rider his attention.
I'm not suggesting that you "let the horse bolt," but sometimes you do need to set up a situation in order to teach a lesson. By releasing the reins I mean that once you get a response, however slight, you HAVE TO reward the horse with the release and trust him to make the right decision. If he takes advantage of the loosened reins, then you have another opportunity to reinforce the lesson.
I'm a convert to the long, full-cheek snaffle or Dr. Bristol. It works well on all my horses, ponies, Arabians, Morabs, Thoroughbreds, and Mustang cross.
You might try putting rubber bit guards on your bit, or raising the bit in the horse's mouth slightly if he is getting the shank in his mouth all the time.
As for the teeth grinding, I associate it with pain, but you would be the best judge of that. It might be nervousness. You could have him checked out by a vet to be sure.
Hope this helps answer your questions a bit.
Holly |
Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 22, 2001 - 4:30 pm: | |
Holly,
Thank you so much. Your replies are always so helpful and so full of experience.
I will definitely work on the one rein technique. I think I'm going to stick to the arena for awhile. It's been pretty cold and windy which has not been making for the best trail rides. He still does his bolt routine in one particular arena so I know I'll have the opportunity to work on it.
I had Stormy in a full cheek snaffle before the tom thumb. Someone else had suggested the tom thumb based on Stormy's habot of bolting. This person thought that the Tom Thumb would give me more control. As I learn more, it appears to me that the control is in my technique, not the particular bit I am using.
My biggest challenge, I think, is to remain patient with this horse. We have alot of work to do and he has alot of mental growing to do too as he is pretty young.
Your advice and tips are really what is getting me through the sometimes frustrating times.
Thank you again Holly.
Christy |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Saturday, Dec 22, 2001 - 5:09 pm: | |
Gosh, golly and gee whiz, Christy. Thank YOU for the vote of confidence. It sounds as if you have your mind in the right place to work with this horse as he needs. Time, patience and consistency, sprinkled with praise, will help you in your quest for a responsive disciplined horse.
Best of luck and have a blessed Christmas.
Holly |
Holly Z.
Member
Username: Cowgrl
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004 - 2:41 pm: | |
I know this is really late in responding but just found this topic.
Here's a trail tip to prevent spooking. When you're out and about in the mountains and you come across backpackers, have the person stand on the downhill side of the trail and speak as you approach. The horse doesn't know this monster with this huge hump on his back is human so needs to find out that it is. Most horses will sigh in relief as soon as they hear a human voice and realize it is not something they need to fear. Remember to ask them to stand on the downhill side as most predators come from above. Make sure they don't reach out to the horse or hide behind trees, the horse will see this as a threat.
My mustang is so good about everything we come across. I have 30 hours on him so far and he is doing great. There is a culvert on a bend in this one trail we ride that has been there since time immemorial. Every horse that goes by it spooks at it. Except mustang dude. He saw it, stopped in his tracks to take a good long look, then approached it and stuck his nose on it for a closer inspection. After which he looked around and continued down the trail. So far he has been exposed to bicycles, strollers, motorcycles, joggers, and everything in between taking it all in stride. For a horse that was running wild less than two years ago, this is pretty cool. Can you tell I'm in love? 
Happy trails.
Holly |
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