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Karen Vazquez (Mollyo)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 1, 2001 - 6:06 pm: |   |
My riding instructor is teaching me to use inside leg at the girth (to get my horse to turn AROUND my leg aid) and inside rein for my turns to get my horse to bend at the rib cage.....does this sound right? I am confused because I thought outside leg aid would keep my horses body straight for a more effective turn. Please advise, if she is correct, I have to learn to ride completely opposite as I have been the past few years.
Thanks for your advise. |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 1, 2001 - 9:49 pm: | |
Hi, Karen,
When direct reining with a snaffle bit, the inside rein, when held back toward your hip, slows down the hind end of the horse and asks the horse to bend in that direction. Horses don't really bend in the middle much at all, but you can help cue your horse by asking him to bend around your inside leg when it stays steady at the girth (as if it were a post the horse was doing a very small circle around) and your outside leg will be behind the girth asking the horse's hind end to bend around your inside leg. Also rememeber to look with your eyes and shoulders in the direction you are going. This changes your seat and legs, too, and will help to cue your horse when done consistently. With slow, gentle, repetition over much time, your horse may learn to work off of your seat and legs for turns, and you may find that you don't have to use much rein at all.
A leading rein is held out to the side by turning your thumb on the inside hand outwards and "leading" the horse around a turn. A leading rein is not a pulled back rein, so it asks for a horse to maintain his speed at the turn and will result in a wider turn for the horse. It will require a steady inside leg at the girth and not as much outside leg back, but you should still look toward the direction of your turn with your eyes and shoulders.
How were you riding before? What were the cues you used? Were you riding western with a curb bit?
Holly |
Heather Newfrock (Heather0)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 15, 2002 - 8:45 pm: | |
I have to jump in here and stir the pot of confusion. My husband is taking lessons from a Grand Prix level dressage rider and she is telling him to do the following: (Clockwise)when the horse is turning right, you place the left (outside) leg in front of the girth toe out, with groin and upper thigh firm you push the horse in the turn with the outside leg., The right leg is supple and quite. No pressure! She states that this is the only way to keep a horse square through the turns. She also stated that hunter/jumpers usually do this incorrectly by having the horse bend around the inside leg and drop the outside leg back to stop the hind quarters from coming around. WHAT is RIGHT#%%#@$$???
Another comment was that Reiners use this same principle and they are doing things right.
Does this boil down to training preferences? Or is the equitation correct?
WE ARE SO CONFUSED??? |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 15, 2002 - 9:19 pm: | |
Hi, Heather,
I have to ask, what are the rein cues? Over thirty years ago, I remember riding into my turns using my toe toward the horse's shoulder. This was the way I learned when riding western. Over the last several years, I have heard that we should bend the horse around our inside leg for turns. Either way, a horse can drop his inside shoulder, and if he does drop his shoulder into a turn he can be cued to hold it up with the inside rein against his inside shoulder and toward the rider's outside hip. Basically, Heather, you can teach your horse to turn any way you decide to do it as long as you always ask consistently and only give the release of pressure when you get the movement you are asking for. That's what training is, and there are obviously many different methods . . . almost as many as there are trainers.
I'm very interested in the input others may have in this discussion. I hope others will tell us their techniques and results.
Holly |
Liselotte F. Bradford (Lilo)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 16, 2002 - 2:15 pm: | |
My initial riding experience was in South West Africa (now Namibia) and the instructors were all German. A lot of emphasis on basic dressage. I learned to keep my inside leg near the girth, and the outside leg further back. I have ridden like that all my life (when I was lucky enough to be able to ride) and it works for me. I agree that horses can be trained with different signals, but I have never felt the need to. I also agree with Holly that it is important to look into the direction you want to go.
We called that inside leg the "driving" leg, and the outside leg the "restraining" leg.
Lilo |
Sarah Blanchard (Willie)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 16, 2002 - 4:34 pm: | |
Think of it this way: It's a matter of physics. We ask the horse to yield to the correct pressure, applied in the correct place at the correct moment.
To bend around a turn you want to shorten the inside of the horse's body and lengthen the outside. To maintain the rhythm and energy of the steps while shortening one side of your horse's body --in other words, WITHOUT shortening the steps -- you also want the horse to step more deeply under his body with that all-important inside hind leg. That's why your inside leg must be the most active aid.
So the aids are: inside leg "at the girth" to drive, outside leg behind the girth to support, inside hand asking the horse to flex with direct rein (usually in a quiet opening-closing-vibrating of the fingers), and outside rein steady and supporting. Think of bending and supporting the horse by riding from the inside leg to the outside rein.
The rider's head and shoulders turn in the direction of the turn, but the HIPS actually rotate slightly the opposite way, with the inside hip slightly ahead of the outside -- think of how the legs are placed, with the outside leg positioned back a little further than the inside. As you and your horse advance, that driving inside leg can be translated to a driving inside seat bone and the action of the inside hand becomes more subtle, so that the aids become quieter overall.
This is your basic formula for lateral flexion.
(I put quotes around the term "at the girth" because that's a bit of a misleading term. What it actually means is that your stittup is hanging vertically and your stirrup is aligned with the girth; the inside of your leg is actually in contact with the horse's barrel several inches behind the girth. Trying to apply a leg aid in the hollow of the girth is ineffective at best, and would create an insecure leg position for most people.)
With all that said, it's also important to realize that sensitive horses trained to Grand Prix level aren't going to need everything outlined above -- it becomes a question of nuances of weight and timing. The horse at that level has accomplished self-carriage, so a driving inside leg is unnecessary. The trainer has probably developed a set of secondary stimuli that have very little to do with the physics of the movement. If touching a highly trained horse with the inside foot achieves a balanced turn with the required bend and rhythm, then so be it -- but the rider cannot expect to apply the same signals to other horses not trained to the same level by the same trainer.
The same sort of reasoning applies when asking for a canter departure. Xenophon noted that when a horse strikes off into a gallop or canter, the first step in the first stride occurs with the hind leg opposite the leading side -- in other words, the first step of a left-lead canter is taken by the right hind leg. Therefore it stands to reason that we should use the outside leg as the signalling/driving leg to ask for the canter. However, once the horse is confirmed in his leads, we can gradually train him to accept whatever signal we want -- and thus we see many Grand Prix riders using INSIDE leg/weight aids to ask for the lead change. (The purpose of the inside leg aid is to keep the horse straight in his changes, not swinging hindquarters to the inside, which can happen with a strong outside-leg signal.)
I know this is a long post, but I hope it helps clarify the issue. Bottom line is, it's important to have an instructor who understands the rider's skill level, goals and experience -- and also understands the training level and needs of the horses that that rider is most likely to be riding. |
Heather Newfrock (Heather0)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 16, 2002 - 8:45 pm: | |
WOW! I feel like a huge black fog has been lifted. I appreciate your thoroughness and your patience in explaining it. This is a post that many people can learn from! |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 16, 2002 - 9:55 pm: | |
Sarah, I echo Heather's comment. Thank you. I would like to hear from reiners or from the instuctor about their reasons for reversing the cues.
Holly |
Aileen (Sunny66)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 16, 2002 - 10:58 pm: | |
Yes, thank you! It actually reinforces what my trainer is teaching me and has taught my horse and you've explained it wonderfully!!
BTW, I too am interested in what the reiner's may say as I am thinking about putting my guy in for reining training. If he needs to relearn everything, I may skip the reining training. |
Renee Abrams
Member
Username: Mrenee
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Feb 7, 2003 - 11:04 am: | |
ok...lets confuse you more! I use leg to teach, but a finished horse is cued from the bit. It works for me. The leg cues are then "backup". If you cue your horse, and he misses his cues, you have your leg aids to assist. I have a friend who is a congress reiner winner, and his horse is cued more from body position and the bit. But, horses in training he uses leg. But I don't think there are any "wrong" or "right" ways. I believe if your horse knows the cue to spin to the left, you shouldn't be having to press with the inside, support with the outside...yada yada yada. My daughter rides hunter/jumper and uses her legs alot. She took reining lessons on a finished reiner last summer, and he could not spin with her. Her legs prevented his ribcage from bending and he was stiff. Jim kept telling her legs OFF. Just use the reins. It was so difficult for her as she has rode one particular way for 7 years! So..anyway...personally, the less cues and aids for me the better. But, like I said, different strokes for different folks, and they all work. |
