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Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2001 - 9:20 pm: |   |
Can someone please tell me what hobbling a horse is supposed to accomplish? I have a trainer working with my horse (when I'm not there) and I see marks on this legs that look like he might have been hobbled. The hair is worn away and it is a little scabby. I get the feeling that is not supposed to happen!
Sounds odd, but I have not been able to speak with her about it yet. I thought someone might have some thoughts or insight.
Thanks. |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2001 - 9:30 pm: | |
Hi, Christina,
Are the marks on the back feet or front or both?
Are the marks on the front of the pasterns as well as under the back of the fetlocks?
Hobbles are used to immobilize horses, i.e., to keep a mare from kicking a stallion during breeding; to prevent a horse from running off.
Some trainers "throw" horses to sack them out. Do you know if your trainer does this? In order to throw a horse, the horse's feet need to be pulled out from under him, and it is done with ropes.
Ask your trainer as soon as you get a chance.
Holly |
Sharon M Roboski (Roboski)
| | Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2001 - 9:13 am: | |
TWH's are "trained" with all sorts of strange devices used to make them gait properly - chains and roller balls, sometimes even tubing attached to their legs. I've seen these things rub the hair off & make them sore unless used very carefully. |
Christina Turman (Storm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2001 - 9:35 pm: | |
Holly, pardon my ignorance but what could be accomplished by yanking a horse's legs out from under him??? Yikes! I hope she wasn't doing that! |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2001 - 10:55 pm: | |
Hi, Christina,
I guess some trainers reason that if a horse refuses to cooperate and continues to show signs of rebelliousness, that throwing the horse and sacking him out will make the horse realize that the human is in control, and that the horse will get used to all the stimuli used in the sacking out (bells, sacks, papers, chains, whatever the horse could be afraid of).
There is a trainer near me who told me that he uses it as a last resort with uncooperative horses. It goes against all my principles, but I guess it is still done.
I think Sharon's explanation might be more in line with why you found marks on your horse's pasterns.
Holly |
Penner (Penner)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 1:49 am: | |
My understanding is what I've seen a Western reining trainer do (Will Howe: http://www.wilhowe.com/).
The purpose is not to throw the horse at all.
After round pen ground work training when the horse has been worked for how ever many days or weeks it takes for the horse to become calm, face, turn away from you with his head (not his rear) etc (Will has a whole series on the round pen - its not really the 'Join Up' idea at all of Monty Roberts, it goes beyond that).
When the horse has finished the ground work round pen training, then IN the round pen do you 1st apply the hobbles (& not tight). They are only on for a few minutes or less at each time (& may really only do it once a day per training session).
Then you gently sack the horse out. Ie: take a lunge whip & just drape it over their back, run it gently between their legs, etc for a few minutes while hobbled.
You DON'T want the horse trying to run away from you in the hobbles, only to learn that he can't get away from you.
In the beginning the horse will try to pivot on the front legs, or try to take a step forward, but within a few minutes they learn not to move very much in the hobbles. This concept may be re-enforced over several days to the horse.
You never want to push the horse into trying to walk (or run) in the hobbles, becuse then you have taught him a bad vice, & you can't use the hobbles anymore, bacause he knows he can get away.
Hobbling is an old way cowboys used to keep their horse near them when there was nothing to tie them to, yet could still graze slowly.
Some people still use it for camping. |
Kathleen Keating (Keating)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 12:51 pm: | |
We use hobbles often - not as a training aid, but simply as a convenience. We do a lot of trail riding and like to stop for liesurely picnic lunches. It's nice to be able to let our horses relax and graze at the same time.
We've never had any problem training them to hobble. You just have to make sure they're completely comfortable with something around their leg and pastern and that they know to automatically 'give to pressure'. Our horses can all be easily led by a rope around any leg before we put the hobbles on. Then we put them either in a grassy field or in front of a pile of hay and put on the hobbles (they're leather and would break if stressed, though that's never happened). We keep the halter on, with a long lead line. Inevitably the horse will try to take a step, feel the constraint and start to try to move: we just steady him with the lead rope, which seems to give the reassurance they need. It's never caused any distress or panic and after that first session, we're able to all enjoy lunch times on the trail together!
Kathleen |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 5:22 pm: | |
Hey, Penner,
I think you misunderstood my explanation of hobbles. I never said they were used to throw a horse. In fact, in my earlier post in this discussion, I said they were used to immobilize a horse or to keep him near. Ropes are used around the horse's pasterns to throw him, and I know some trainers throw uncooperative horses and then sack them out while they are on the ground; not something I recommend.
Holly |
Penner (Penner)
| | Posted on Thursday, Aug 23, 2001 - 6:02 pm: | |
Oh, OK!
I thought someone had asked what is the purpose of hobbles.
First I thought someone else here might have thought thats what hobbles were for (throwing a horse), so it was confusing.
No harm done, good thread! |
Rita Terrell
Member
Username: Taerie
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2003 - 9:59 pm: | |
I just wanted to add something about hobble training. I have heard that it is very useful to train a horse to hobbles because then if they somehow get tangled in something around their feet they will be less likely to panic and tear themselves up. Some trainers teach hobbles on the front and the back.
When I was a kid I trained my gelding to hobble for picnics and years later when he got tangled in some wire he just stood patiently for a long time waiting till somebody rescued him. That horse was an exceptionally wise fellow but I think the hobble training helped. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 13
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2003 - 11:31 pm: | |
Hobbles are not only useful when camping, etc. but also when you have a horse that is nervous and paces constantly-like some stallions during breeding season. There are some who will pace so much they actually cause injury to their legs or feet. When the hobbles are on, they not only prevent the horse's pacing, but seems to be mentally calming to them-like saving them from themselves. You should use fleece lined hobbles though and slowly train a horse to them where he is safe. They adapt to them quite readily. They are used extensively in the west for a lot of reasons and I've never seen a horse injured by them (except by breeding hobbles, which I personally won't use.) |
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
I am sorry to dampen this but I have personally seen broken shoulders,legs, necks from horses that spooked while in hobbles. Becuase of this I do not use them or allow them on my property it does take longer to train out of behaviors that hobbles are used for in training. And if a horse is that flighty , or difficult to breed , I do not use the method which would put another horse or handler at risk. Some horses are not emotionally set up to do what they are being asked to do, in this case I would put the horses in the activity that best suits their temperment.
for exampole a high spirirted horse should not be forced to be a western pleasure horse there are many events horse would be better suited for. Some horses will never be a good trail horse. there many ways to breed without resorting to hobbles.
I hope this makes sense to someone but I will never agree that pulling a horses legs out from under them is necessary or a good training tool its used because of lack of talent and time or because someone wants horse trained NOW! |
Gary Evans
Member
Username: Gevans
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | |
Who ever started hobbles should be shot. It is designed for stupid people who don't want to take the time to properly train their horses. I have spend 15 years in Europe and NO ONE would consider using hobbles.
This is 2003 surely don't go back to the dark ages. Hobbles is what make Europeans see americans as thick as bricks, and its unfortunate as some of the best trainers are from the US and Canada and would never use such tactics. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
And just how would you train a horse to stay within sight of camp when you are camping out in the desert or a high plateau area where there are no trees?
Hobbles, like anything else are as severe or mild as the person using them. I have seen terrible damage done by snaffle bits, curb bits, nylon equipment, etc. It all depends on the knowledge and personality of the person using them. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 18
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
Janette-I have never seen hobbles used to pull a horse's legs out fr. under him. I would agree, this is a bad practice. I have seen a horse "thrown." It is a practice I personally don't adhere to, however when done properly, it can be quite effective.
I know a fellow who was training a young, spoiled gelding. In a round pen or on a lounge line, whenever the horse would be asked to work, it would go around a couple of times then charge at the trainer. He put a heavy, soft cotton rope with a loop on one end around the horse's middle, pased the unlooped end through the loop,between the front legs, through the halter ring and used it like a lounge line. He was on a soft sand footing. When the horse charged,he waited for just the right moment and yanked hard. The horse hit the ground-unhurt, but really surprised! He only had to do this twice-on different days. The horse never charged again.
I think doing this without hurting the horse would take a lot of knowlege, ability to read the horse, and really soft footing. I personally wouldn't do it. But...it worked for him. |
Colleen Goolsby
Member
Username: Goolsby
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 3:47 pm: | |
I have been following this thread with some interest. I have never used hobbles, although I can remember times I wished I had them. I just wanted to say to Sara, a very good question.
I cant wait to hear an answer.
Colleen}
|
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Sara would you be camping on the high desert alone with no other horses and no feed or water for you horse?
If so there is ancient thing horseman used called ground tying, no eventually they were not tied to ground but they learned when reins or lead rope was on ground the horse was taught to stay put.
If there is more than one horse you tie ones head to others tail, and vise versa. They only go in circles. To modify for a picnic perhaps shorter time of stopping where you don't un-tack you can tie one halter or bridle to the others stirrup facing opposite directions.
I was raised on 20,000 acres at 10,000 feet in the mountains of Colorado, it took 3-5 days to bring sheep and cattle back home off of mountain grazing for summer. All the horses we used were off the killer truck, I won in 4-H with those same horses off the killer truck till I was 16 yrs old when Dad decided maybe I deserved a well bred un-abused horse to compete with.
We never used hobbles only time and patience and alot of trying to understand how the horse got to this point, and then trying many different things to achieve trust and respect none of which was dropping or hobbling horses. And we got horses that charged you on sight off that truck, that turned out to be our best most honest/loyal ranch horses. |
Holly Wood
Member
Username: Hwood
Post Number: 410
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 6:08 pm: | |
Neat, Janette. What interesting experiences you have had. I commend you and your dad particularly for taking the time to train the fear out of those needy horses and give them proper care. Bravo.
I will say, though, that tying two horses together seems as if it could also present a danger if one horse spooks or decided to have a fit . . .
Necessity is the mother of invention . . . and most horsemen today try to find the best ways to keep themselves and their horses safe. Sometimes something seems safe to us until we have an accident . . . and then we are forced to invent a better way. I think hobbles were used because they seemed the best way in a given situation . . . and there are many folks who have used them with good results. Thankfully, there are better ways. The key is compassion and education.
Holly |
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
Holly this was not done the first time out on mountain I would say I spent 10-15 nights out in pastures and in corral with each horse and with the horses we intended to tie togeather, that we were taking that year. some were rigged up to pack food and supples for dad and I, we rode horses one day the next day those horses hauled the packs and supplies and we rode the pack horses the next day, so they all had to know how to behave regardless of what we used them for and that way if one was hurt or sore they already were used to packing and riding. Dad had one mule and he would go down to Larimer square in Denver and hire one wino off the street to ride that mule and lead the pack horses, well actually the mule led the pack horses lol. the wino just sat there and helped us set up camp each night.
Ty for the compliment |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 12:01 am: | |
Actually, I have riden and camped in the desert, carried food for the horse on the horse (cubes or pellets)but been near water without large enough vegetation to tie to.(used a water filter for myself.) Most of the time I've been with sheep or cows, trucks, etc. and tied to the horse trailer, and where there's trees, like in the mtns., used a picket (remuda) line. I've known people who have led horses/mules with the method Janette uses, but not for overnight.
I think a lot depends on the horse and how well you know it. The mare I usually ride camping does ground tie, but I wouldn't trust her to stand there all night. I know people whose well trained ground tying horses have taken off and run for miles when frightened, or in one case when wild burros came visiting. And, I'd never leave one of the stallions ground tied when I didn't have an eye on him.
My point really is, though, that anything can be abusive if used improperly or in anger. |
Sara Wolff
Member
Username: Mrose
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 12:08 am: | |
For the record-there are very few situations that are totally safe where a horse is concerned. I won't use breeding hobbles because of serious injuries I've seen, yet many people won't breed without them. I've a friend whose head stallion and show horse just about ripped his leg off in a new MD barn stall. She never did figure out how he did it. You just have to use your best judgement. |
Kathleen Keating
Member
Username: Keating
Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 2:08 am: | |
In my respectful view, ground-tying and hobbles have different purposes out on the trail. Our horses are trained that when they are ground tied, there is NO eating allowed. They must not put their noses near the ground. (Because once they do that, they're gonna start thinking about moving their feet.) Hobbles are a kindness to them because they then are allowed to eat and to roam freely - taking tiny steps.
Kathleen |
Angie Judson
Member
Username: Ajudson1
Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 9:02 am: | |
Interesting posts. I often wondered myself about trying hobbles. And boy, there were times I wish I knew how to throw a horse!! But I know that's just my ignorance, and with proper training not necessary. If a horse is that crazy, I don't need to own him.
So, Kathleen, how does one teach a horse to stand ground tied and not eat??? |
Kathleen Keating
Member
Username: Keating
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
Hi Angie - to teach a horse not to eat while ground tied, you have to teach him that part of ground tying is keeping the head up (by "up" I mean close to level). I am just beginning to teach my yearling to ground tie and of course I don't do that in a place where there is any temptation for her to put her head down to eat. She's on bare ground, but any time she makes a move to sniff the ground, I correct her, just as I do if she takes a step. Only when she's very reliable at standing still like that for quite a long time will I place temptation in her way, and only gradually and for very brief periods, always rewarding with huge praise, scratches, etc., when she does well. Like any other training, you set them up to succeed, but also to learn from their mistakes.
I hope I didn't make it sound as if we could leave our horses ground tied all afternoon in a grassy field with none of them stealing lunch. They aren't there yet. But that's why I wouldn't use ground tying in such a situation - I'd be setting them up to fail.
Kathleen |
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
LOL forget about the not eating at ground tying lol, that will not be achieved . |
Kathleen Keating
Member
Username: Keating
Post Number: 55
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 1:30 pm: | |
Janette, I'm sure you didn't mean to be as rude as your post sounded!
I tried to make it clear that I wasn't talking about dropping the rope and walking away from your horse in a grassy pasture for the afternoon. But standing on grass without eating, for a reasonable time is absolutely achievable, with patience and consistency.
In fact, if your horse is eating while ground-tied, then he isn't really ground-tied at all: he's just staying til the food within easy reach is done and then he'll for sure be taking a step.
Kathleen |
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Kathleen,
I thought it was funny if a horse stands anywhere on grass no matter how trained they are with out attendance of a handler they are going to put their head down and eat. In the camp situation this is fine if they eat around their feet. If tacking up or grooming yes we try to teach them not to eat but hold little hope this will be for a very long period of time. Sorry you found my comment something to be defensive about I merely smiled and chuckled out loud GOD FORBID I enjoy comments and the people on this site. |
robertjbraun
Member
Username: Rjbraun
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
Hi ALL ,the only reason I ever used hobbles was to keep my mount close over night when out on round up .As I was alone a lot of times .We never used them for breaking a horse. |
Sharon Thomas
Member
Username: Sefiroth
Post Number: 177
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2003 - 8:45 am: | |
I had an older quarter horse buckskin gelding that I bought for a song and a dance from his previous owners because they said he would rear up when mounting. They were hauling them selves on him not buy holding on to the horn or the horse's mane....but but the reins. He had a good home with me and never reared on me. Duh.
Anyway. With a saddle on his back and a bit in his mouth, you didnt have to touch any part of him and he'd follow if you moved, keeping his nose glued to your shoulder. He'd even spin in circles to follow if neccessary. I tested once by running toward his butt, going around in circles. Also when tacked up and the reins were dropped he'd ground tie....and he wouldnt lower his head to touch food even if there were a bucket of grain at his feet. I tested that too. |
JANETTE MCDOWELL
Member
Username: Westks
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 25, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
Sharon wouldn't it be great if all horses had this temperment, what a pleasure! Who ever trained this horse did a great job but I suspect this horse's temperment had more to do with it. Horses like this are few and far between. |
Sharon Thomas
Member
Username: Sefiroth
Post Number: 178
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 26, 2003 - 12:12 am: | |
Good grief at all the typos in my previous post. I was on my way to my wedding and didnt have time to recheck and reread! 
Yes that horse was definetly one of a kind. I still am kicking myself for selling him. He was a blast to ride. Bomb proof, drop dead gorgeous, went over-around-through-under anything, so very light on his cues, except whoa. And he was NOT fun to ride on any large trail rides and was occasionally scary to ride since he didnt have very good brakes when he thought he was in a race with another horse. But I still miss him.
~Sharon |
Holly Z.
Member
Username: Cowgrl
Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, Apr 8, 2004 - 5:13 pm: | |
Hi,
We use hobbles all the time while out packing. The horses are all well trained and have never had an accident or hurt themselves while hobbled. Tying a horse to a picket pin driven into the ground or a tree so he can graze is much more dangerous than hobbles. The possibility of him getting tangled up and start to panic is very real - I've seen it too many times. Thankfully the worst injury my horses have experienced is a rope burn but broken legs, dislocated limbs, etc. can happen.
Once a horse learns to run in hobbles, and they can run fast, then all you need to do is tie a rope from his hobbles to his head. About 15 inches long is good. This way he can't get his head up to run but has enough room to graze comfortably
The question on the hobble sores - yes, I've seen hobble sores just like the ones you're describing Christina. Our horses generally get them if we're out for any length of time and if they spend a lot of time hobbled. I check them every day of our trip and medicate if necessary but once the source of the irritation is removed, they go away and do not leave a scar. |
