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Discussion on TOTALLY UNMANAGEBLE
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Miss Allen (Lawra)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 9:23 am: |   |
I have a strong cob 4 year old filly who is too strong and unhandlable. can anyone suggest what to do with her as I am considering having her put down. She wont lead in a head collar at all, she is so strong you can in no way keep hold of her. Even if you hold her tight with her strength she can drag any person about. It is not just myself that has experienced this. I don't know how I can retrain her as even with a pressure halter there is no difference.
In a bridle she is fine but you can not always get it on because she needs to be tied up before you can do so and again with her strength pulls away. If she is loose, not tied up she is even worse as soon as you get a hold on her she again with her strength barges off.
She wont stand still for a second if she is tied up she swings her weight around nearly whacking into people standing in the way and paws at the ground constantly and even sometimes throws herself up the wall and if she is tied to a rail she pulls back so hard until she breaks free. Why wont she stand still?
I don't know what to do with her as no one would even consider buying a horse so strong and unruly as her. can anyone suggest? A human being has no chance of holding a strong mare like her and it is becoming very dangerous as she ploughs off where ever she wants dragging the leader behind.
She is ridden but I am not enjoying the hastle I have as soon as I am on the ground. There is no pleasure in having a horse that is like an untamed bull.
If anyone can suggest a reason for this behavior and how in the world it can be stopped I would be very grateful. |
Heidi Wealleans (Pones)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 9:43 am: | |
Lawra
Where are you in the UK? If you don't want the whole world to know just email me. If I am close enough I could help you out.
It seems your mare needs some manners drilling into her. Young horses quite often have no patience, and it's just firmness and training that help - you have to discipline your horse as it would be disciplined by other horses.
My mare went through a 'bargey' stage, with no manners, but we had a few stern training sessions and she's as quiet as a lamb now! I don't mean violence, just persistence and firmness - asking a horse to stand, and then MAKING it stand, rather than giving in.
Keeping some form of food with you in case she 'escapes' might be an idea - especially when you want her facing the right way in the stable! Spending time with her and making it 'fun' to be with you might also help, as she will look forward to seeing you.
With regard to the leading problem. Two things: 1) try using a be-nice headcollar, or a chain through the headcollar side buckle, over her nose, and through the side buckle nearest to you; this affords a bit more control
or
2) make a headpiece by taking a bridle to pieces, so you just have the bit and the headpiece, and fit this over your headcollar, this is quite quick to put on. Use a lead-rein attached to a Newmarket chain on the bit rings; if she gets too strong in the headcollar, a few short tugs on the bit should let her know you're there!
As I say, if I'm close enough I'll come and take a look at her for you... I'm sure we can work something out!
Heidi |
JM (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 3:14 pm: | |
Please, don't consider putting a horse down because she is unruly. Can you find a professional trainer to help you?
What about getting some ace to calm her down while you are trying to teach her some things. Or if not medication than something herbal to help with her demeanor.
If you can pull some blood that would help in seeing if she is hormonal.
The vet should come out.
How long have you had the mare? How can you ride her but can't control her on the ground? Is her behavior constant or just sometimes? You are right a horse like this can do some major harm to you, and she is not a joy in any way. But please don't consider putting a horse down because she is unmanageable. There is someone out there who will be able to manage or take on the challenge.
good luck. |
lynne ashforth (Lynnea)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 6:50 pm: | |
I can't imagine even considering putting a horse down without exploring every avenue possible. Aside from there being a physical problem, or as JoJo says hormonal, or as Heidi states she may need a professional handler to teach her proper ground manners, I can think of dozens of other reasons that are fixable. Give her a chance, perhaps with someone who will take the time and patience needed to work her through it all. Certainly if you are not capable of dealing with this kind of behavior, you don't want to get hurt, so your best bet is to find someone who is.Heidi sounds like a good prospect. The answer is not in destroying her. |
Holly Edwards (Hwood)
| | Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 10:45 pm: | |
Hello, Lawra,
Sounds like you have your hands full. Yes, the horse does sound like a bit of a bull and no fun to be around, but I believe there is hope for her and for you should you ever get other horses like your cob.
I have dealt with some pretty unruly horses and found that the best way to capture their minds and help them to see that the human handler is the dominant one in the horse/human relationship is to use the round pen. You must be somewhat familiar with Monty Roberts and the work he has done with the Queen's own horses and the demonstrations he has given. The trainer I have learned from also uses the round pen (a 60' diameter, six foot high) to teach horses about the dominance of humans by using the language horses understand; body language. The round pen is used for several reasons, among them are:
1. You are not attached to the horse, so if the horse decides to pull and run, you are safe.
2. If the horse wants to move away from you, you can get give him what he wants by using body language and a rope or longe whip, while staying toward the center of the pen. (There is no way that we can hold a horse or make him be still, but we CAN get a horse to move.)
3. By using body language (a language that horses understand) we can control the movement of the horse, and while it takes longer for some horses to realize than it does for others, when the horse comprehends that we can control his speed, direction and duration of movement, he realizes that we are someone to whom he'd better pay attention, (just as horses learn in a herd situation.)
I have every confidence that your horse is very trainable, and on the positive side -- movement is needed for training, so just think how well-trained your horse can be! In the meantime, though, I would opt to avoid the riding part. Wait until you can find someone who can get inside your horse's head. I have found the natural horsemanship training to be the most effective, especially with bullish, rude, obnoxious horses.
Don't give up! There's hope!
Holly |
Laura Swain (Swainl)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 10:00 am: | |
Hello-
DON'T give up, yet. I purchased a very large dutch gelding several months ago and experience similar issues. He was perfectly well behaved under saddle, but had absolutely NO ground manners--wouldn't lead, would pull away, not tying, etc.
Out of total desperation I took a Pat Parelli clinic (similar to Monty Roberts), and it has made a tremendous difference. Things aren't perfect yet, but he's controllable now.
You can buy the Parelli first level program over the internet. It comes with a video and little booklets to help you out. I did find the clinic to be extremely useful, however.
There is no way that you can force your mare to do anything against her will--how much better if you can convince her that the good behavior is her idea in the first place!
Good Luck,
Laura |
Tammy Taylor (Taylor)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 12:11 pm: | |
Hi,
I'm going to take the more unpopular route with this one. By all means, get some professional trainer to help you with this situation. But should the trainer NOT be able to help you and the horse is STILL dangerous or unmanageable to be around, you may consider putting her down. I don't know the success rate of using ACE as a training tool. I'd think that once the ACE wore off, the horse would still have the same problems. Besides, if you are having problems haltering her, good luck administering the ACE. I believe that this horse has a serious trust issue, and that can be resolved with lots of time and patience.
My first recommendation is to have a professional trainer come out and do an evaluation. Try to nip this problem in the bud. If, after a period of time, they are of no help, see if you can sell her, but be honest and disclose all information regarding her problems (someone may want her as a companion for another horse). If you are unable to sell her, consider her a lawn ornament. If that isn't an option, then as a last resort, consider putting her down. I know, as a horse owner on a budget ( and I know of many horse people who believe that if you have to be on a budget, you have no business owning a horse, but that's a whole other discussion ), sometimes you have to stop throwing good money after bad. When you have done all that you can, then that is all you can do. ( Of course, this is all worst case scenerio and the horse has shown NO progress, training isn't working and her behavior is continuing to get worse and no one else wants her. )
Another question, have you purchased her recently? Would the seller consider taking her back and refunding or trading for another horse? How was she when you got her? You may have to undo a lot of "bad training" or lack of training that instilled this behavoir in her. We have "horse traders" here in the US. They will sell you another horse that they have taken off of someone elses hands and put 30 days of training on, and give you a discount for taking your horse off of your hands. I'm not a big fan of the horse trader, but I have known 2 people who have done this and they received some very nice horses in return. Of course, you have to be very careful when buying a horse from anyone, but I'd be especially leary of the trader, but it is an option to putting her down.
Sorry if I took the unpopular route, but there are always a few horses (dogs, cats, birds, etc...) out there that no amount of training can help (or so much training that it can drive a person into bankruptcy). I'm not saying that this is one of them, only a professional trainer and the owner can make that determination and I wish Laura the best of luck and a happy outcome to her Cob's problems.
I'm going to turn my back, put my hands over my head and prepare myself for the sever beating I'm going to take for my opinions, but that is the beauty of this forum. |
Sherri L. Hueser (Tangoh)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 1:27 pm: | |
You won't take a beating from me Tammy, I agree completely with every comment you made in your post. |
Jackie Dayman (Becky)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 4:07 pm: | |
Lawra,
The good thing is that your mare is rideable! To me that means she isn't a basket case, she just has bad ground manners and has gotten used to being a bully. I would look at what Heidi suggested as far as a be-nice halter or a chain. If it doesn't work over the nose, I'd fix it under her lip(sounds cruel but if the alternative is to put her down, its worth a try).
One of my mares broke a lead rope by pulling back(and she was trained to tie). And of course, once she suceeded, she'd try it again. She actually broke loose from the side of the trailer during a show. After that I bought the be-nice halter and use it with a bull-snap lead rope. She's hit the end of it a couple times, I just step back and let her teach herself. I don't think pressure halters(even be-nice) make much difference in keeping a determined horse from dragging you around. They can move you enough to keep serious pressure off. A chain is much more effective.
I also think the round pen training suggested is worth a try. When I first bought the mare I describe above, she wouldn't let you handle her feet, bathe her(cow-kick)etc. After I did a little Monty Roberts, I felt we started bonding. But we did a lot of other things too.
Good luck and if you don't feel confident about handling this yourself, I would look at using a professional. |
JM (Jojo15)
| | Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 9:14 pm: | |
Tammy why would we beat you?
Putting a horse down is a necessary evil to guardianship. I would condone putting a horse down instead of trying to sell to an unsuspecting buyer who doesn't know what they are in for. This horse very well could be a loose cannon.
I have to say though, that I have ace as injections or as a pill. Crushing it and placing at feed time can work wonders, and although it is not long lasting it has helped my mare overcome a few fears that after the first "foggy" time of it, it was never a problem again. Cheating? possibly, but it works when ALL else FAILS.
Herbals? well some believe it works and some don't. I can't really argue the efficacy, but rescue remedy is always close at hand.
I wholeheartedly agree that there are some unusual animals out there with some serious disabilities that probably should be put down. (I have an extremely aggressive dog, my quality of life is extremely difficult with her and all the extra money and time she takes to keep her around). But discussion of PTS should be the last item on the list, Laura mentioned it in the first paragraph of this post. Very scary thought.
We really don't know what stage Laura is at. She very well might have gone through everything we have hashed out. Or not.... Where is she? |
Emily French (Jcsmoon)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2001 - 11:20 am: | |
Tammy you are right in this unfortunate fact of life. I love horses but they are not worth my life, the hard part is knowing when to make that decision befor you are dead or disabled. - Emily |
Leah Hinnefeld (Belhaven)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2001 - 5:43 pm: | |
I have two examples that I can share. The bottom line is only YOU can make the decision that is proper for YOU.
First I had a yearling (still have him he is 3 now) and he was a BEAR to lead. I had to start over with teaching him to tie-in the stall first. It was a bit cumbersome but it did work. Now yours sounds a bit more ummmmm strong willed than my young one-simply an example of where to start.
Second, I had a 2-3yo gelding (Still have him-he's 4yo now) that was truly a danger to manage. He attacked, struck out, bit, kicked. I mean a MONSTER. I had the same debate at one point myself. I ended up sending him away to a "cowboy" for five months. He restarted him completely. When he came home he was much improved but things still got shaky at times-I was fortunate enough to have a strong big guy that was very horse smart working for me at the time. He helped us stay on track and was there to assist when things went the wrong way. Results? Today I have a wodnerful quiet, well behaved horse-granted he tests every single person but his primary handler (me thank goodness for my sake) but he is safe.
I guess what I am getting at is you have to access your financial situation and the options available around you-there are options. Will you horse make it over from the dark side? no one can tell you that. If you have the money and a GOOD and I mean good old fahsioned colt starter available to you it would be worth the effort-he can certainly help you assess how much time and where he would likely end up....
But as others have said, we care for them and love them all in a way-but at the end of the day they are still horses and must be safe to handle. No human life is worth the risk. |
ANN COLLIER (Dres)
| | Posted on Tuesday, Aug 21, 2001 - 11:59 pm: | |
have you tied this 'beast' to a tree for a period of time..??? i had a 17+ hand dutch warmblood that was a mess... so we put a cotton lead & halter (all one piece)on him and tied him to a tree...*unbreakable, the tree and the lead line..* we made the tie higher then his pole, so that he could not get tangled up in it.. and when he went to pull back (sit down) it would be 'kinder' to him... we did this everyday for a week... left him tied for 4 hours at a time... in an area that he could be seen but could not cause trouble to anyone.... HE LEARNED RESPECT AND PATIENCE... to this day he has never tried to pull back, or jump on me... doing tree time gave him time to think,,,
just my 2 cents..
ann |
Connie P.Dozier
Member
Username: Conniep
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Jun 9, 2003 - 9:27 am: | |
I have to agree with Ann. I don't usually agree with harsh methods, but if you have a horse that is a danger to humans, you have to use an effective method to gain control, even if it seems a bit harsh. I am not implying that tying the horse to a tree is harsh. In fact, I have done this before. I love my horse, but not enough to be hurt by it.
I would try this before putting the horse down.
Connie |
Renee Abrams
Member
Username: Mrenee
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
I get horses like this all the time. They are tough to re-train if they have already learned they can pull away or break ties.
A friend brought me a 3 year old perch/TB cross that hasn't had a halter on since he was a weanling. Hasn't been led. Nothing. I worked (tried to work!) for a couple of weeks and decided to take this big 17hh strong horse to an amish man who breaks horses to a buggy.
He hooks them up to a team that is bigger than him, and he HAS to go. It was sad at first. He refused to move, but the other big draft horses were moving so he HAD to go. He literally sat down on his butt and was dragged along on his butt for a ways until he decided maybe it would be better to walk after all. He tried to bolt off, but of course those 2 big horses kept the wagon going and he couldn't go anywhere. He tried everything under the sun to get away, but those big horses just kept plodding on and on and he had no choice but to give in to the pressure and get with the program.
I had no other choice....he was too big to hang on to when he wanted to leave, and I never even tried tying him...I am sure he would have broken the tie...this way he is learning pressure and leading and when he comes back to me for training, at least I will be able to handle him. |
Robert N. Oglesby DVM
Moderator
Username: Dro
Post Number: 8700
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
I knew a man who had two steers that were attached together by a old wooden yoke that he wound tether bad acting or ignorant equines to learn to lead. 5 days with the cows and they were happy and obedient indivduals to be around. There is a modern version for those on us without bovine resources that I keep meaning to write up. watch for it in the next few months.
DrO |
Leilani Clark
Member
Username: Leilani
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
I boarded at a local ranch awhile back that had a gentle-giant steer named Matthew. I think he weighed in close to 2k. Anyway, they had a young mule who decided that he would listen to no one, so they tied him to Matthew. Wherever (and whenever) Matthew moved, Russell followed. It was so funny After 3 days tied to Matthew, Russell was ready to learn.
Can't wait for your post Dr. O. |
Sherri L. Hueser
Member
Username: Tangoh
Post Number: 385
Registered: 3-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 3, 2003 - 11:11 am: | |
We use our giant mammoth donkey (JJ) to train our show bulls. We use a special training harness that is safe for both and used specifically for this purpose. The bull, who outweighs the donkey sometimes by 3 or 4 times has little choice but to do and go exactly where JJ wants him to go. It usually takes only 24 hours of being harnessed together before the bull has learned manners and is trained to lead, stand quiet on halter and be tied. This is a common practice here and is very efficient and much safer than a human training these large animals to lead. - |
Suzanne Moore
Member
Username: Suzym
Post Number: 381
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 3, 2003 - 12:39 pm: | |
I just have one question for now. How much actual training on giving to pressure has this horse had? |
Shelley Wiley
Member
Username: Sswiley
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, Jul 3, 2003 - 9:26 pm: | |
Wow, it sounds like the "tie the horse to a bigger animal method is effective". I have never heard that in a Pat Parelli clinic. But I have done it to a little donkey that would not budge, I tied him to a big donkey(Baby Huey). He left these deep trenches wherever he went . . . . !
I think Miss Allen is gone, I wonder if she ever trained that horse. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 229
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Friday, Jul 4, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
i have a two year old filly 16'2" hands tall, that we discussed on another post regarding using a chain halter vs. be nice halter, .. anyway she was extremely dangerous to lead would rear all the time... i took her to a cowboy that said she was not halter broke... yup, i would agree to that.. he ponied her around she tried to rear he would move his 'tiny' 1/4 into her she would try to pull away, he dallied up the rope so that she could not... we used a cotton halter with attached lead rope.. by the end of the section her face had a few sore spots from the tugging,,.. BUT.. i had a filly that was/is totally respectful of the halter now... and as of yet has NOT reared when leading...
i am a believer.. Ann.. |
Robert Schallowetz
Member
Username: rackn
Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 2:16 am: | |
I didn't read all the replies. This may be a very old message too. Just wanted to add my story because I've been there. One of my mares, after our first move together, became so unruly and simply put dangerous to be around. I had people suggest putting her down. I was franticly trying to come up with a solution. I had moved her home without anyones help and she was down right scary to be around. Surely no one would buy her in that condition. The thought of what would happen to her if I sold her in that condition motivated me. So I held on.. I bought the Parelli level 1 kit and followed it to a T! Sure enough that mare came around. I had to get real creative, still do at times, she is smart to a fault, but that turned into a plus! We made it to the other side. Now, on the ground she is my best trained horse! I still struggle with her under saddle, mostly my insecurities, but she is no longer a danger. I could sell her at this point, but I wont. So there is hope, just find the right ground work system that works for you and work it! |
cindy O'DELL
Member
Username: zarr
Post Number: 675
Registered: 6-2000
| | Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 1:13 am: | |
Robert, Am glad you stayed with her.Some of the very best are the biggest challenges. I had one too and have been very proud of us on many occasions ! It just keeps getting better, Enjoy Cindy |
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