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Fran Cilella
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2000 - 9:18 am: |   |
Hi Everyone,
I'm hoping to gain some insight from those of you who own/run/manage a stable.
A friend of mine, who has loads of experience (she's a successful trainer that has also worked with an equine vet)is negotiating with the owners of a barn to compensate her for her time (in addition to lessons). This friend has consistently pitched in with barn chores, giving people advice and help, fixing things, etc. In fact, she is invaluable to the welfare of the barn and the horses, but she does not receive compensation for this from the (absentee) owners. They have agreed to pay her, but we are trying to determine what would be a fair hourly rate. Can anybody help? By the way, this stable is in the Midwest and it is one of the more expensive boarding facilities in the area. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks! |
Gerald P. Goulder
| | Posted on Tuesday, Apr 25, 2000 - 11:04 am: | |
I know I am always too legalistic about postings to this board. And, believe me, I really appreciate and am gaining a better understanding of the horse industry with the non-legal postings about resolving circumstances, but.....
1) I think this person should clarify whther she is an employee or independent contractor of the facility.
2) There should be some agreement as to the compensation.
3) There should be a release and hold harmless in favor of this person fromthe stable and anyone whose horse(s) are at the stable; including, mediation/arbitration clause.
4) There should be a mediation/arbitration clause in the agreement.
5) Perhaps her rate of compensation could vary as to the level/degree of services she provides individual horses? owners? etc.? |
michael owens
| | Posted on Saturday, Apr 29, 2000 - 12:29 am: | |
My wife is a stable manager here is her comments: 1. Discuss everything and get it in writing.
i.e. any compensation for any service.
2. Charge for everything. lessons. vet assistance. farrier assistance. wound care. vaccinations. worming. ect. make up a rate list for each client. Collect in advance if possible. If not send out itemized bill monthly for extra services.
3. 10% cut of lesson money is standard in Tennessee to the stable owner. I give 10% of all lesson and training fees I collect to the owner.
4. Don't allow yourself to be overworked. Set specific hours of operation and stick to them. Sometimes clients expect you to be available 24hrs a day.
5. Discuss operations of stable and all fees with new clients so there will not be any surprises when they get your bill for services.
6. Have the clients make their own vet and farrier appointments. I have been stuck with paying for these services by some clients. If the owner can't be there when the service is done charge them a set fee for service.
7. Get a credit card number on file for vet charges if owner can't leave a check or cash.
8. Get itemized statement from the vet so you can show the owners what was done and the cost.
9. Don't feel guilty for going home on time. And make sure you make time for your own horses and not just clients.
10. Make the clients take responsibility for their own horses. You are not their babysitter.(horsesitter)
Hope this helps some. I have learned these lessons from 30 yrs experience in this business.
Kathryn |
Fran Cilella
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 1:02 pm: | |
Thanks for your advice. I'm not sure if I made myself clear in my initial posting, however. My friend is looking to be compensated from the owners of the stable, not the owners of individual horses. Although she does do a lot for her students, she also assists in "barn duties" for which she is not being compensated, thus the need to determine a fair hourly (weekly?)rate. The owner of the barn is not there to over see the management of the facility on a regular basis, thus my friend, out of the goodness of her heart and her concern for the animals just pitches in and gets things done when needed i.e. painting jumps, sweeping floors, fixing feed bins, cleaning stalls, feeding, turning out horses, etc.
Any further insights?
Thank You! |
Gay M. Walker
| | Posted on Friday, May 5, 2000 - 12:56 pm: | |
We are new stable owners. Our Manager is also the Assistant Trainer. We allow her to live on the property (a really beautiful facility in a nice 2 bedroom house), and to board 2 horses in exchange for her managerial duties. She gets the cash she needs to live on from wages she receives from the trainer.
Everyone has been quite satisfied with this arrangement. She does keep a careful log of unusual services she provides (ie, meeting the vet or farrier for a boarder, or extra care provided to a horse) which we bill for monthly. We do not pay her extra for these services now because they are not large. We do, however, treat her as one of the family and include her in outings, etc. |
Wendy Parker
Member
Username: Nightwin
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 - 9:17 pm: | |
I am developing a new boarding facility and have 5 horses boarded. I have told my clients that since I do not provide lessons they are free to contract with a trainer of their choice. My ring is being developed, but they have a nice grass pasture and roundpen in which to conduct lessons. My question: Should I as owner be compensated by the instructor? There are two ways to look at it: (1) I am providing her with a place to conduct her business and should receive a cut of her pay; and (2) Since I do not provide lessons, I owe it to my clients to provide someone who does. I am reluctant to broach the topic with an instructor until I have some insight and advice. I live in southeast Virginia. Anybody have any advice? Many thanks. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 374
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, Jun 16, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | |
Wendy, you can charge a trailer in fee, or a usage fee ... in this area, it varies from $10.00- $25.00 depending on covered or not.. user friendly for trailers etc...
good luck , this can get to be a sticky situation with your boarders.. as it adds to their costs of lessons etc..
Ann |
Carol Clark
New Member
Username: 24carrot
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 17, 2004 - 9:54 am: | |
I agree that you should charge a fee, but it shouldn't be added to the cost of a lesson. It should come out of the trainer's pocket as an expense. You've made (I assume) a huge investment in your property/facility and have every right to charge for the use of it. This trainer who comes in to teach doesn't even have to provide the horse! I'd also insist upon the trainer carrying his/her own liability insurance. |
Jerre R
Member
Username: Jerre
Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 17, 2004 - 11:02 am: | |
At barns I've been in, boarders can bring in their own instructor with no additional fees for their own lesson. But if the trainer has additonal haul-in students, those students pay an extra arena fee.
If the trainer puts on a clinic that draws outside students, a percentage of the gross goes to the barn.
But part of the advantage of paying full board is the ability to bring in your own instructor for yourself.
The benefit to the barn owner might not be immediate, but having a trainer who uses your barn can help you keep your stalls full. |
Sandra Ross
Member
Username: Sross
Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, Jun 17, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
At the barn where we board, we had a dressage trainer coming in for a while. The trainer paid a small fee to the owner of our barn for each student (usually several of the boarders). Outside students trailering in would pay an additional facility fee.
However, that trainer has decided to no longer teach so now we're taking lessons from the owner of our barn.
From the boarder's perspective, I would like to be able to bring in the trainer of my choice at no additional cost. However, a student trailering in for lessons should certainly be paying you a fee and signing some form of release.
From the owner's perspective, I agree with Carol that trainer should carry their own liability insurance.
Communication is key. As long as you know who's on your property doing what, reasonable people can usually find a way to get along. But ultimately, the property is yours, and any outside trainer should be respectful of that. As Jerre said, having a trainer teaching from your facility can be an added draw to some boarders.
|
barbara
Member
Username: Oscarvv
Post Number: 572
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 7:12 am: | |
In my experience, I don't think you should charge a fee for allowing your paying boarders to take lessons on the farm in which they board.
If people trailer in for lessons, sure charge a ship in fee.
I wouldn't expect too many trainers would go for having to pay you a fee and your boarders may loose their trainer. The instructor is already driving to the lesson which is costing them time and gas.
I could see if you had huge boarding facility and an instructor was teaching full time at your facility.
|
Carol Clark
Member
Username: 24carrot
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 8:55 am: | |
I have to take exception to Barbara's comment that the instructor is "already driving to the lesson which is costing them time and gas". I teach on my own school horses (and boarder's - for which I discount lessons) on my own property. These are huge costs that I incur in order to maintain a lesson barn. For an outside instructor to come in and keep 100% of the lesson money would be grossly unfair to the barn owner. |
Nadia F
Member
Username: Nadia
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 9:09 am: | |
If you, as the barn owner don't offer lessons in any way, then I wouldn't charge the instructor a fee, only expect them to have liability insurance. If you do offer lessons, then a fee would be appropriate. I boarded at a small barn where you could use any instructor that you wanted - just needed proof of liability insurance. You rode your own horse - all horses were privately owned. I don't see how there was any extra expense involved to the barn owner in this case. I just had someone standing in the arena telling me what to do. |
barbara
Member
Username: Oscarvv
Post Number: 573
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 5:44 pm: | |
Carol, your lesson situation is totally different than the one I was commenting on. I was referring to the above situation where the barn owner was NOT offering lessons.
The point I was trying to make is if the barn is not offering lessons and is a small facility (5 boarders) my opinion is that the barn owner should not request a share of the lesson price. If the instructor is working full time on the farm then I think a percentage of her lesson fees would be expected.
Sorry, if I am still not being clear, I completely agree with Nadia. 
~B |
Wendy Parker
Member
Username: Nightwin
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 6:20 pm: | |
I really appreciate all your input. I am still struggling with the fact that I have spent a HUGE amount of money to create a facility including new barn, run-ins, safe fencing, excellent pastures, excellent care of horses, and since I do not provide lessons I should allow someone else to drive onto my farm and earn an income. My boarding contract does not state that I will provide boarders with lessons. The comment re if clients are paying full board....yes, they are paying for a very safe and healthy environment for their horse, staffed by people who care. Why is there the implication that I owe them lessons, too, and if I can't do it I should allow someone else to without any compensation? The instructor drives to my farm and makes an income. I am also curious as to why it makes a difference as to the size of the facility. I have 160 acres, a new 20-stall barn, and pasture for pasture-only horses. Over the next three years I could easily handle 40 horses. I will have an outdoor ring completed late summer. How does this determine whether I can charge someone to give lessons at my barn? I do not want to require (as many barns do) my boarders to use an instructor I may hire full time, because no one instructor can appeal to the various riders I have. I believe my boarders should be able to choose whomever they like. Arg...I still can't make up my mind! |
Nadia F
Member
Username: Nadia
Post Number: 22
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 7:01 pm: | |
I can see your point, but I do think the size of the facility does matter. Where I was, the barn was small, about 15 boarders, only 1 or 2 of the boarders wanted lessons, so they had to find them on their own. It was unlikely they would use the same one, so the trainer is traveling for just one person.
In your case, the same trainer may be used for several boarders in which case, they could be making alot more, and you could be providing them a client base, just by being a larger facility. Maybe you charge a percentage according to how many hours per week they train at your facility? So for the lone trainer out there, he/she is probably losing money just by driving out and back for 1 person, but the ones that are busy, they are making quite a bit more and could afford the fee. Just a thought. |
Jerre R
Member
Username: Jerre
Post Number: 119
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, Jun 18, 2004 - 7:50 pm: | |
Some of it depends on the customs of your area. Some barns here that have resident trainers don't allow any outside trainers to come in. The best "boarder-friendly" barns allow each boarder to bring in a trainer for lessons at no cost.
If you have some times that are busier than others, maybe you could charge a lesson fee for those times, to make up for the inconvenience to your boarders. Boarders' lessons in off-times would not have the fee.
The most successful barns around here -- the ones that always have a waiting list and low turnover -- concentrate on customer service for the boarders (and their horses, of course!) They also charge a bit more board, so maybe you could make up the difference that way (only don't tell them you're charging more "in case" they bring in a trainer!) You could just add "personal lessons with your own trainer/no charge" to the benefits list. |
Wendy Parker
Member
Username: Nightwin
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2004 - 6:59 pm: | |
Excellent points, and I thank you for your input. |
sherana sisko
New Member
Username: Sherana
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 12:48 am: | |
My question here is I run a boarding facility with 8 boarders and I have a trainer who comes and gives lessons on my horses so what percentage of her lesson rate is fair to request? |
Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: Quatro
Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 11:07 am: | |
Hi Sherana, I have read with amazement that some people think that as owners of a business we should be so grateful to have someone come on to our property, that we have worked hard to create, and just make a living! Why did I not think of that before I invested huge amounts of money into my business! I think that it is the trainer who is being given the opportunity to make money without investing much, which consequently anyone that I know that has a job, has to put gas in their car to get to that job, they need to adjust their cost to their student to add the compensation due to the barn/arena owner. I train dogs and before I spent $25,000 on a heated training building, I paid a mere $15.00 per session to rent an armory to have group lessons. Ah, those were the days. I don't know what a percentage would be, but am thinking of putting up an indoor arena, so I am very interested in everyones input! Good Luck, but please understand that you really must feel OK with being compensated for your contribution to this individuals income!
Sue |
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 120
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
As a barn owner, it's always difficult to make ends meet, and at my facility, while I don't allow outside trainers to come in, I also do not charge the trainers that are here for use of the facility (other than the board that they pay to keep their own horses here). Their presence helps to keep my barn full of good clients, and they pull their weight in terms of labor: keeping the rings dragged, pitching in at doing whatever's needed, and generally keeping an eye on the place to keep everything running smoothly.
If I were to start charging, I would hear no end of complaints, starting from them and moving on down the line... Yes, I do pay a great deal to keep my rings nice and my facilities healthy for the horses (theirs and mine)--but the facilities around here that don't have resident trainers aren't nearly as nice as mine, and their board reflects that. You get what you pay for in this world, and my boarders are smart enough to know that, I think.
In the end, I think you have to follow your own conscience. I could make more money if I started charging, but I wouldn't feel right about it--and the headaches that would ensue wouldn't be worth it. I also know that I would have a changeover in clientele, and the new clients wouldn't be what I have now--clients that are more like family, and that make me look forward to going in to "work," which is really more like play. |
Nancy Reynolds Kiester
Member
Username: Albionsh
Post Number: 67
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 1:09 pm: | |
I have many similar questions, as our long-awaited barn is almost finished, so I am very interested in this thread. I think Susan's point is well taken, for those trainers who board at her facility. I also think a boarder should be able to have anyone come to train them on their own horse. However, Sherana is providing the arena and the horses. How about leasing several of your horses to the trainer for his or her use in lessons? A full or 1/2 care lease which pays you board for the horses used for lessons seems fair. |
Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: Quatro
Post Number: 92
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 1:18 pm: | |
Yikes Gay, I checked out your website. What an awsome facility! I would agree that having a resident trainer pay for use of your facility would not make sense. But would you consider having an outside trainer come onto your property, bring horses and students on without paying you for the use of your facility? We do not plan on doing any boarding, but would like to offer a facility that trainers in our small town could meet with students and offer classes. There presently is no such service in our area. Trainers will meet at an outdoor arena in a small city owned equestrian park. I have a pet resort, and lose many hours of sleep worrying about my many spoiled guests here, I am not sure I could take on the worry of boarding horses. (I am an overprotective babysitter!) Anyhow, I just think that if you have a premier facility that offers training, that is one thing, but if you are trying to offer a service, you should get paid for it.
Just my opinion
suz |
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 121
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
Absolutely, if trainers came in with horses that weren't boarded here that would be a different story! Somebody needs to pay somehow. At my facility, I figure the use of the rings is included in the board, and if it happens to be under supervision of a trainer, so what?!?!? But for a non-boarder, that would be totally different.
My resident trainers occasionally have students that trailer in for lessons (maybe at MOST 2 or 3 a month). It is so infrequent that we haven't been charging them a ring fee, but I've made it clear that if it becomes more frequent, that option remains in the future (and it would be over and above what the trainer charges those students for their lessons). They have other students that will come for a few days/weeks or even a month to ride, and those pay board--we have worked out board so that it is prorated at a higher rate for stays of less than a week, and at my usual rate for stays of a week or more after the initial night which is always higher because of the initial cost of bedding the stall. That benefits me (increased occupancy) and the trainers and we're all happy.
So I guess we really all agree: somehow you need to be reimbursed for providing your facilities. I provide facilities as part of the board, and whether they are used unsupervised or as part of lessons/training doesn't matter to me. The few students that trailer in are not a great enough percentage at this point for me to worry about charging, but that could change in the future.
We have breed inspections twice a year, and I donate the facility for that use (but about 75% of the horses rent stalls for the day, so I'm not completely without income for the event, and in fact come out pretty good on the whole). I also donate the facility when we have clinics, but we haven't had many of those lately--again, I feel it is a service to our boarders and the outside riders rent stalls and I get money that way. It has generally worked to my advantage, especially since I not infrequently get a new boarder from amongst the clinic participants or auditors. You just have to decide what makes things pay for you.
If I had a facility like Susan's, though, I would definitely charge--I couldn't stay in business if I didn't. |
ANN COLLIER
Member
Username: Dres
Post Number: 441
Registered: 10-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
how about if the barn owner /host.. has a haul in fee per horse, what ever that is agreed upon. It should be per horse cus as we all know some trainers will bring 4 horses in at a time to lesson with an outside clinician.. this way the host is getting some costs for her time in dragging the arena, parking, .. usage.. etc
this way the riders are not out much more then the lesson would cost + gas / hauling etc...
just a thought ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS.. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 573
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 2004 - 2:43 am: | |
Just a different picture from another country. My friend who runs the local stables has at least two different arrangements.
For trainers that she brings in, she has a minimum number of pupils that will make it worthwhile. If their numbers drop below that, the split between them means it isn't worth her while. This can be either a number in a shared lesson, or a session of two or three semi-private lessons.
For boarders (liveries we call them) who bring in their own trainers, there's no charge, it's part of the facilities, but the trainer must have their own insurance. But we all pitch in - so in the summer, we have showjumps in the paddock for lessons, but we do all help to paint them and look after them, and we arrange small local shows to bring in the money for the paint. I'd say she usually pays about half of equipment costs, we raise the money for the rest.
I don't board my horses there as I have my own stables at home, but I pay her an annual amount equivalent to about 120 dollars to be allowed to use the arena when no-one else is using it. Typically I might use it very early on Saturday morning to practice dressage tests before the Saturday lessons start, or during the week when the kids who board ponies are in school.
All the best
Imogen |
KC
Member
Username: Kcovell
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 2004 - 5:14 am: | |
Ok let me say I'm not trying to make anyone mad or upset, but if someone pays to use an arena, etc. and then on their own does things to help out why should they expect to be paid for that?
If you want to be paid you should first make an arrangement with the owners of the stables.
If things that need to be done aren't getting done then helping out is just something horse people do for each other, but in the end the stable owner is responsible for the maintainence.
If things aren't being done that need to be then someone needs to address it with the stable owners and see if they want to pay for someone to do what needs to be done.
Most of what I said in this post is related to the post by Fran, but I've seen it happen other places.
KC |
Susan M. Herrick
Member
Username: Quatro
Post Number: 93
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Dear Imogen; That is a great idea about a yearly dues. I was trying to think of how I could manage to offer the use of an indoor arena to people who do not have access to prepare for shows earlier than our seasonal bad weather allows. Perhaps a monthly dues, and a schedule would work. I would like to find a way to have small clinics with local specialties. My main goal is to help pay for the facility, but also to bring together a growing equestrian community.
Anyone with any other ideas for revenue to help support an equestrian center, would be appreciated!
Susan |
Gay M. Walker
Member
Username: Gmwalker
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, Oct 31, 2004 - 7:06 pm: | |
Dues are a great idea--I believe that's how tennis clubs and the like make a go of it for facility maintenance, and even how many riding clubs work in Germany where the members trailer their horses in for the use of the indoor facilities in the winter time, for lessons or during inclement weather.
While horse-shopping in Germany, I have seen schedules posted at Riding Club-owned stables as to when lessons were going on, and when the arena was available for unsupervised jumping, free-riding (I assume this means hacking on the flat), and so forth if my limited German interpreted what was written correctly. I assume this was for the benefit of the Club's members. It appeared that some horses were boarded there and others (including some of the horses we were considering purchasing) were boarded at their owners' homes and trailered there in tiny (sometimes single horse) trailers whenever they were to be ridden, and that the owners thought nothing of doing this as often as 5 or 6 times a week. |
Imogen Bertin
Member
Username: Imogen
Post Number: 574
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 2004 - 2:25 am: | |
Hi Kim
Don't worry I'm not mad! I think it's probably a cultural difference. Here in Ireland there is a word, meitheal, which means sort of community spirit. It was the reason why neighbours helped with each other's harvests in the days before agricultural mechanisation.
An awful lot of things happen here in that way. Usually very disorganised but it happens and everyone is happy at the end. We don't go in for lots of written agreements... though unfortunately we are starting to follow the US in regards to people making stupid insurance claims which will probably put paid to the old-fashioned way of life in the end.
To be precise, my friend doesn't have time to paint all the jumps herself. So unless we all do a bit it won't happen. She doesn't mind if there aren't jumps, we do, so we paint them. Actually it's quite a pleasant chore on a summer evening!
And yes, we do have a riding club which is the focus for a lot of the activity. It also provides the insurance for the shows through membership dues.
Best wishes
Imogen |
sherana sisko
Member
Username: Sherana
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 2004 - 10:00 pm: | |
Thankyou so much for all your input! Wow. I am grateful. This is the arrangment I made with the trainer. She can use my horses to give lessons on but I recieve 30% of what she brings in. She is not paying ofr the vet bills or farrier or food so I think that is more than fair. |
