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Discussion on Frustrated! Hard keeper.... | |
Author | Message |
Member: loopylou |
Posted on Monday, Sep 3, 2007 - 10:19 pm: Hi there,Charlie, my 13 yo arab gelding, was very skinny when I purchased/rescued him about 3 years ago. He came to me with ulcers as a cribber, and had been fed too much alfalfa, not enough grass hay, and was stalled most of the day/night. He has improved tremendously since then, with 24/7 turnout, gastroguard, free choice grass hay, minerals, redmont & white salt, plus lots of beetpulp. I've read alot about why you shouldn't feed concentrates and alot about why you should, so I also have him on poulin grain carb safe which has 12% protein (alfalfa meal of some kind), soy hulls & beetpulp, plus some fat & vit/minerals. Long story short...he HAS put some weight on, but mostly he looks like he has a hay belly but he is still skinny. His ribs are showing...its almost as if he has no real fat on him or that his skin is really thin showing his bones. I've read all the articles and DrOve myself and him bonkers with flax seed and all sorts of other stuff and then went back to the basics of good hay, pasture, and beetpulp but he's still not right. I'm also told to keep him OFF the grass - too much sugar - bad for his feet (he is barefoot) which I subscribe to to some extent, but have read that grass hay can have just as much sugar as grass (www.safergrass.org). My barefoot trimmer suggested more magnesium, but he gets it free choice (rushcreek minerals) and doesn't seem interested. We do have a selenium deficiency around here...perhaps that's the next step. I got his bloodwork done but the vet didn't get enough vials to do selenium (everything else was normal, including Vit E). Just really not sure what to do next. Am thinking, even though he's been treated with gastro and isn't showing any signs of ulcer flare up, perhaps they are still slightly inhibiting his absorption of nutrients but, after reading Dr. O's articles, it appears that probiotics or prebiotics really don't do anything to help. Flax seed, I'm reading, doesn't do much either since horses don't suffer from a lack of Omega 3. What's left to try or do???!!! Thanks. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 8:47 am: Have you been worming him regularly? Sounds like a bad case of parasites to me. If he hasn't been on a worming program I'd start with a half of dose, wait a couple of weeks, do another half and then a full dose a month later.Read DrO's articles on here about worming and probably start with a Zimectrin type product. We have a 5 year old who was a little skeleton when we got her at 6 months and worming, good concentrate(low starch), good hay and a little corn oil brought her along slowly and now there's no sign she was ever in that poor of condition. Maybe post a picture if you can. |
Member: ekaufman |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 10:03 am: I'm with Angie-- a good round of deworming (don't forget tapes) might help, if you haven't tried it.I know there is skepticism on Powerpacks. I have had good results with them, though I roll my own-- I buy the big jugs of cattle fenbendazole and calculate the horse dosage based on concentration/weight etc.. Out here, that can give you a customized powerpack for about $18 for an average horse. If you have tried deworming already, try aggressive fly control and a blanket in the winter. I have one hard keeper who just frets the weight off with flies. Block the flies and she gains like crazy (weird, but true). |
Member: loopylou |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 10:09 am: Yep - he's wormed regularly and I send off poop to the horseman's laboratory to test him for worms every other month, in addition the vet tested for worms - parasites is not the problem. My gut (no pun intended) tells me that he's not getting all the nutrition he needs. I've calculated his dosage of vitamins and minerals and they look fine according to Dr. O's articles. I'll get a picture of him today to post. |
Member: 153337 |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 10:51 am: Hi Louise,It seems like you are doing everything possible. Does he get regular exercise? My sisters arabian that is around 15 has a problem where when he gets his weight down, he looks terrible. He looks better overweight. He gets a big belly and it looks like the weight just DrOps down. We daughter suggested an every other day work out where he would just be lunged at the trot 10 to 15 times each way. When we did that the weight started to get distributed more evenly about his body. It seems without regular exercise this horse just becomes a big belly. He is also regularly wormed, and supplemented etc... But the exercise is the only thing that makes him look more balanced in his weight distribution. Since you did not mention exercise maybe this is an idea that could help him. Sometimes exercise can help alleviate stress hormones, too, that may be causing him to burn calories faster. Good Luck, Amber |
Member: hwood |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 11:08 am: When any of us is losing weight, it's usually because we're burning more calories than we are taking in.If the deworming and the quality of the feed are all okay, then I'd do the simplest thing next by adding more fat to the ration. Corn oil works well for most of the horses I've had, although a couple have protested . . . and I've had to add dry fat or just increase a high fat complete feed. Sometimes adding corn oil to warm water before pouring over the pelleted (my grain of choice) feed will help the oil to absorb into the pellets and make it more palatable. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 11:34 am: Why can't he be on pasture[grass] has he foundered? My hard keepers almost always do better on a good quality grass.Jos |
Member: loopylou |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 12:23 pm: Thanks for your input. Amber - I think you might be hitting the nail on the head. I haven't been able to ride for a while due to school and moving house - hopefully getting more exercise will help distribute the belly!Holly, I have a terrible memory but remember reading somewhere that corn oil isn't a good thing to feed horses (perhaps too refined or throws off the balance of other ratios??) so, in the past, fed Cocosoya but really didn't notice much of a difference by adding fat to the diet. I think the beetpulp of all things has done the most to help and I've now found some that is Non-GM (speediebeet) with NO molasses so am eager to start him on that. Note that he isn't losing weight - he's actually gaining but its all in his belly and his ribs still show, enough for anyone that meets him to say "oooh, he's a little skinny". I just need to transfer that belly to the rest of him! Jos, he has 24/7 access to pasture and free choice grass hay but, if you subscribe to barefoot trimming and read alot about hooves, wild horses, etc. etc., fresh grass is a big no no due to sugar content. I do believe that sugar is a bad thing for horses. The sugar content of grass is less at night, however, and Charlie prefers to go out for a nibble at night after the flies have died down. Check out www.safergrass.org for more info about sugar/grass/founder etc. So I've had bloodwork done, that came back normal. Are there any other tests that anyone knows of that might help? I just, somehow, want to be reassured that he's getting the nutrients he needs. I'm pretty sure I'm feeding him what he needs, but whether he's absorbing them...that's my worry. I could get the hay tested or hair analysis done... He hasn't foundered, and I want to keep it that way! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 12:53 pm: Hello Louise,You cannot tranfer the belly enlargement which is the enlarged bowel dealing with the high fiber in the diet and not fat. Holly is right, to cover the ribs with a bit of fat he needs a more energy dense diet than he is currently receiving. As the feed becomes more energy dense it will probably decrease his desire for the large amount of forage and the hay belly will lessen in size. But this is really all just simple nutrition if there are no disease processes going on and the article Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Horse Feeds, Feeding » Equine Nutrition an Overview of Feeding Horses will take you step by step through how to evaluate the diet and how to change it to achieve your desired response (note that vegtable oil including corn oil has a place in the nutrition of some horses, the referenced article explains this). There is a link in the article on difficult keepers and ways to evaluate and boost nutrition to them but first be sure you are following the guidelines in overview. DrO |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 1:25 pm: Louise -- tapeworms seldom show up in fecal tests and will cause a horse to be a poor-keeper, so as Elizabeth said, in case you have not regularly wormed for tapes, suggest that. Also, how about the teeth? have they been checked/floated regularly? |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 4, 2007 - 3:56 pm: What kind of conformation are we talking here? My little arab mare is built higher in the rump, and gets a hay belly really easily which makes her look sway backed too. Then she looks ribby also. Exercise makes her look much better, her belly goes away and seems to come up too. |