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Discussion on Transition from shoes to barefoot question. | |
Author | Message |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 5:05 pm: Dr. O, I watched a video of an interview with Dr. Strasser regarding transitioning horses from shoes to barefoot. The interview was in German, with English subtitles. Dr. S. stated that a horse with shoes removed must not be stalled. The translation quoted her as saying a horse put in a box stall immediately after shoe removal would probably get laminitis. "Probably" was the word used, not my interpretation. Her belief is that greater movement would be necessary than a horse in a stall has. The discussion was about sound horses, not previously laminitic.Surely many horses are stalled right after shoe removal without this consequence?? Is there any validity to this statement? "Probably" to me means "in most cases." |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 12, 2012 - 6:22 pm: HA! I've gone from shod to barefoot with quite a few and never had that issue (in 24x24 stalls). |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2012 - 8:57 pm: Dr. O???? |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2012 - 1:02 pm: Dr. O, I'd really like to hear your thoughts about this? |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2012 - 1:10 pm: Interesting question. I've had horses that have been barefoot all of their lives, but I've never transitioned from a shod horse to a barefoot horse. Frequently the shod horse does not have the "barefoot" look to me. They usually have higher heels. My horses that have always been barefoot barely have any heel at all. They have also never been stalled. I can see where that high heel will put more pressure on the coffin bone, but that is true whether they are stalled or not.I can also see where a horse with soft soles could be compromised in a wet stall with little exercise time. But no more than a shod horse in the same environment. Perhaps this is the thinking behind the stall issue: "24-hour turnout is important to rapid rehabilitation of the de-shod hoof. The hoof needs a huge and constant supply of fresh blood. When a horse stands in a stall, the hooves quickly become congested. Metabolic wastes build up inside the feet. Areas that are healing are deprived of oxygen and nutrients. I have seen feet that were doing well during daytime turnout, become sore overnight in a stall. Currently it's difficult for many of us to arrange 24-hour turnout for our horses. Begin with the best you can do, and keep working toward longer turnout / shorter stall time. As more people come to understand the importance of movement, we will change the standards of boarding conditions." I would argue though, that the shod horse is dealing with the same thing? I'm not a fan of shoes. We primarily camp and trail ride with our horses. We ride in the Sierras where it is very rocky. I also have a pasture that has a lot of granite and hills. I leave them barefoot in the pasture, but put EZ boots on the front when we trail ride in rocky terrain. This is a great combination. The horses are very confident going across rocky stream beds and we have more traction on granite. The hind feet seem to do just fine without any protection, as they are not carrying the bulk of the horse's weight. Now that said, as a child, I rode all over Southern California where there was little or no rock on the trails with an unshod horse. Their feet are in good shape from being barefoot most of the time, but they get a little help when we ask them to go over rough terrain. Also, I have Friesians, so they are heavy going across rock. I also have a foundered Arab, who has does wonderfully with the above scenario. I was able to keep her sound enough to ride for 15 years. If I was going to pull shoes on a horse and transition to barefoot, I would use a combination of hoof boots and barefoot exercise on terrain that will help toughen their feet, making gradual changes. If the bedding in the stall is clean and dry, then the barefoot hoof should be fine, I would think. However, I would try to get out of the stall as much as possible. (I'm also not a big fan of stalls, but recognize that they may be a necessary evil for those that don't have another option.) Give me a paddock with a simple shelter anyday over a stall. Another thing to keep in mind is your horse's foot. They are all different. My Friesians have big, flat feet with very little concavity carrying big, hefty bodies. They are much more prone to a stone bruise, than my foundered Arab who actually has quite a bit of concavity even with her founder. So you will need to spend some time learning your horse's foot. I would attempt this during the dry months, and not the wet months when the hoof is more vulnerable. Make sure that your shoer does not do any aggressive trimming. I trim my own horses and leave quite a bit of hoof on them at all times. I never pare the sole, and let it grow out naturally. So more frequent, gentle trimmings, than more aggressive trimmings farther apart. Some links to read: https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/4/5327.html https://www.thebarefootblackstallion.com/articles.html https://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Transition.html https://www.horsedesigns.com/journey/journey.html https://www.equineonline.net/horseforum/barefoot-horses/5196-transition-barefoot. html https://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/transitions.htm |
Member: stek |
Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2012 - 2:55 pm: Julie, just my two cents: I've seen many many horses go from shod to barefoot with no problems. Lots of farms that I've worked on pull shoes over winter or when the horse is getting a break from training. These were situations where the horses usually got at least all-day turnout, but many were still stalled at night and quite a few were racehorses that were kept stalled except for 3 or 4 hours of turnout a day.If someone is transitioning horses from shod to barefoot and the horses usually founder if kept in a stall at all, then my gut says something is wrong with their method. I do think the maximum turnout you can give your horse is the best for them, for a variety of reasons, but 24/7 is not always possible. Here in the pacific northwest the winters are just too wet and we bring horses into stalls with 30' gravel runs attached at night. I see it as the best of both worlds. |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2012 - 8:41 pm: Have been involved in transitioning horses from shoes to barefoot in both scenarios -- with lots of turn out or mostly stalled.Never had laminitis as an outcome. I do believe that it is best to get a horse moving as quickly as possible but each case history may be different and require different care, in my experience. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2012 - 9:09 pm: Thanks ladies. Good links Laurie and thanks for taking the time to post. I agree with and practice all that with my horses at home. They (5)are all barefoot and I do my own trimming. I do have a young mare in training and the trainer insists on shoes. My question really has more to do with Dr. Strasser's statement that stalling a horse after removing shoes would "probably" result in laminitis. This seems a sweeping statement to me and I was hoping Dr. O would weigh in but....????? |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2012 - 9:14 am: Hello Julie,I am here Julie it just been a long week with a bit of flu thrown in. I believe the statement to be false and don't understand what DrS is trying to convey. DrO |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2012 - 11:48 am: Flu SUCKS! Feel better DrO O! Vicki makes a lot of sense too - every horse is different. Anytime you hear a blanket statement is a good time to step back and think. But from these posts it sounds like Dr S has pretty much been debunked. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2012 - 2:02 pm: The video Julie watched was sent to me by a friend who is a certified Strasser barefoot trimmer. I posted that video on FB and I am going to put the link here. Perhaps before we "debunk" Dr. Strasser we should watch the video, ya think? And instead of picking out one word, see what we can learn from the complete context of what she is saying?Hope you feel better DrO, so many are ill, and it's not fun! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjmIiGFJtAc |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2012 - 9:18 pm: Very interesting piece.Thanks, Angie. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2012 - 2:44 pm: Thanks Angie. So what was missing from the quote I found above, was that the hoof changes when the shoe is pulled off. It gets wider and allows the blood to pool in the hoof, and when the horse is not moving, she believes that the horse may become prone to laminitis.The other thing is fascinating is that she duplicated almost exactly my words about the Friesians. They were raised on soft ground and have no concavity. - which is probably why I deal more with stone bruises with them than the Arabs. They also go swimming in my pond every day, which doesn't help the susceptibility to abscessig either. However, all that said, I would still keep my Friesians barefoot using hoofboots when I ride. I would also attempt the transition even if my horse was stalled, but I would compensate by increasing the time out of the stall. Even a horse in a pasture spends a lot of time standing, dozing, etc. They are not constantly moving. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2012 - 4:21 pm: I hope it's okay to do so but given the direction this string is going I thought it might be good to share this YouTube video with information about the inner structure of the hoof and shoes vs barefoot. It's kind of hard to watch but I found it very interesting. Heck, since there are two videos I'll post both links, y'all be the judge.Fair warning though, the first one is a bit hard to watch. https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DayEJa cuoJ7I&h=JAQEkJ1hZAQGijIOsxNUZC1vgjdvy4lrHw0e15BYIaW4kpQ&enc=AZNlyZx6u94ltuoxwWA QdU0fda7oPo6xUkYfGI6gI6E2SH-Vp8ktyPwew9EBtCc9wRfGxmJOytLHplBM0hjnrwnyehLcoFpjjcr 0XE3tGozelA https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DEL_45 ml-TlI%26feature%3Drelated&h=6AQEfxinnAQFs-J_0_ipBsigMjcNJDQXFlOMar1QKUk-hrA&enc =AZNN8AxVFt9VeHKeheocC3UnMhCGwJeCag-wFBDH2Z4JUdvpLEY4Hm-QczkPlOjiU8y8NxDXAr66bEO y6mhXShhx5nYUkHfRRarEj08KneVfeg |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2012 - 4:29 pm: Aside from that, thanks Angie for sharing the link. If you're talking about larger horses sometimes that does make a difference as there is a significant amount of weight putting pressure on those feet and if they are just sitting around doing nothing (poor babies), well that would be owner error IMHO, not something I would blame on removing shoes causing laminitis so perhaps it has been taken out of context?Except for the occasion when horses are on stall rest for an injury they do need exercise to keep them healthy and the blood flowing (a few of us could use it more often, myself included!). I'll never forget the first time an old cowboy told me horses have 5 hearts (back when I had my first horse). I thought he was crazy until he explained to me the function of the frog and how it pumps the blood back up the leg with each step. Just something to think about. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Feb 20, 2012 - 11:37 pm: Andrea, I've seen the videos you posted above a few times, always interesting to review them. I agree that horses have 5 hearts, wish more people knew that expression and understood what it meant!Laurie, I have a Friesian/Morgan/Qtr (Everyone knows Tango, right?) and his hooves have been frustrating me for years. Big, flat hooves, fighting flares always, bars...don't get me going! My Arab, never ouchy in the 20 years I've owned her, even as I taught myself to trim, and messed up. I actually have threatened to donate Tango's hooves to a hoof school! Body may or may not be attached...tee hee. If any of you are interested in learning about trimming your own hooves, keeping them barefoot, or just learning about hooves in general, I can't stress enough PLEASE check this out: https://www.hoofhelponline.com/ It is a paid membership site, and although you won't find a world of horse health advice like DrO has here, you will learn more about hooves and how they should be trimmed, and you can post pictures along with your questions. I've been a member for a few months now, and learned soo much. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Tuesday, Feb 21, 2012 - 11:38 pm: Both my Friesian mares are pigeon toed, so I have to take off the inner toe and outside heel. What's interesting is I barely touch the hind feet on all 3 horses. It's always the fronts we are working on.It is surprisingly easy after calling a shoer for almost 30 years. We actually use power sanders to take down the wall. So it isn't very labor intensive. I stand behind my husband and point at where I want him to sand. I then touch up with a rasp. I've yet to have a horse quicked or sore, because I'm going to check them again in a couple of weeks, so I don't have to take off a lot. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 10:07 am: Laurie that's amazing (and thanks for the link Angie!), I have a good friend in KY who was so frustrated at trying to get a shoer out that she finally took to doing her own (KY right? Apparently the farriers there don't want to waste their time on the small barns, there's more money @ the big race farms - can't blame 'em).Wish I was brave enough to go at my horse's feet, I always end up with the problem children... I'd hate to screw one up and make things worse. |
Member: stek |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 1:09 pm: Angie, one of the things Strasser says right off in the video confuses me. It's been a couple days since I watched it so I'm paraphrasing, but she says that it's common consensus that horses can not walk without iron shoes. Maybe this is a bad translation, but who says that?All horses are obviously born barefoot, and at least in my experience (including pleasure horses, trail horses, show horses, race horses, breeding horses) most stay that way until they show signs of needing additional support or protection. Is my experience that different than everyone else's? Maybe I have just been lucky in what I've been exposed to? I keep my horses barefoot and trim them myself every couple weeks, but my mare who is naturally flatfooted needs shoes to be comfortable riding on gravel roads. If I'm working her heavily under those circumstances I will shoe her. The alternative is to cover my entire property with gravel instead of grass for her to develop the appropriate calluses, otherwise she's going to need some protection. She also talks about most trail riding being done in the forest and fields on soft ground. Maybe that is true in Europe, but not where I ride. Do you think it's just a bad translation, or is that what Strasser is really trying to convey? I find it to be a big turnoff when someone starts out with what seems like a blanket mis-statement... |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 2:03 pm: HOrses canNOT walk without shoes? I don't think that would be something that she ever said, she's not a people person and the language barrier it an issue, but she's all for barefoot...did you mean horses cannot walk WITH iron shoes?One of her pet peeves from my understanding is people don't give the horses time to develop the foot they need, and every time you put shoes on, that sets the hoof back again. Concavity is what makes a horse sound on gravel and other ground, and the trim makes the concavity develop, short version of a much more complicated issue that I am not going to attempt to get into. |
Member: frances |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 3:30 pm: If I remember the interview rightly, she was ironically referring to the fact that it was once widely believed that horses could not walk without iron shoes, which she went on to show is clearly nonsense. |
Member: stek |
Posted on Wednesday, Feb 22, 2012 - 4:25 pm: Sorry for the confusion. At the beginning of the interview Strasser is asked to comment on the fact that when the interviewer looks around she sees most horses wearing iron shoes and what that means.Strasser's reply according to the translation is "The common consensus today is that a horse is unable to walk without iron shoes. The two main arguments being that a horse is not able to carry the weight of the rider, and that horses are not designed to walk on streets." As Frances says she goes on to argue against that idea. That is the statement I took issue with, as I don't think it's a common consensus that a horse is unable to walk without iron shoes ... either the translation is really off, or she's really out of touch with the reasons people shoe their horses. I am a big proponent of barefoot horsekeeping, but in my experience not every horse can be gravel crunching sound barefoot. 6 out of our current 7 do great, and we have one flat tenderfoot gal who I don't want to see in pain when I ride her on gravel. |