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Discussion on Pssm
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 7, 2006 - 9:17 am:
My qh has had ongoing issues with this and also arthritis in various areas. I have been giving him cosequin for about a year, and have just heard that glucosamine may have adverse effects on blood sugar levels. Does anyone know anything about this?
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 7, 2006 - 9:07 pm:
My warmblood gelding had a positive biopsy for EPSM . He also gets glucosamine and my vet (and Beth Valentine from Ruralheritage.com) say there are no adverse effects with feeding this supplement. And in the three years since he has been diagnosed certainly getting glucosamine on a daily basis has not hurt him.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 6:43 am:
Thanks, Hally!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 6:53 am:
My self diagnosed EPSM mare gets glucosamine and it doesn't seem like it makes a difference, she also gets legend shots (i.v. H.A.). Which seems to help her with all her issues, Tho Dr.O. hasn't alot of faith in it. Neither one affects her adversely as far as the EPSM.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 7:33 am:
Can I follow up and ask you girls how functional your horses are with these issues? I am having a heck of a time figuring out how much I can ask of my guy.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 8:25 am:
My horse is 28 yrs. old now, so she is a pasture ornament. She seems comfortable for the most part. Winter has been hard on her, so hopefully I have things under control. Low carbs and plenty of movement seem key for her comfort.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 9:03 am:
Diane you misunderstand my position on these two medications, one which I take personally for arthritis. For more see Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » The Joint Protective Treatments.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 10:21 am:
Dr,O. it was a response you gave me on my mare, that led me to believe you didn't think legend worked. Did I misunderstand? This is from that post-- Diane, I always have problems with posts like this and as you note the vet's comments do not make much sense. From what we know about IV HA it is hard to attribute such remarkable changes to the HA alone.
First, Legend does not have such remarkable effects when given, particularly systemically. In fact the effects are subtle enough that it takes good double blind studies on many horses to demonstrate an effect and a lot of experts are arguing whether it does any good at all. This is compared with the effects of bute which can take and old arthritic cripple and dependably make him good for light use for a day. Second, if the problem is arthritis, the effects of the daily oral supplements would probably be additive to the injections and not replaced by the hyaluronate. After all once given the exogenous hyaluronate disappears from the blood stream and is gone completely in 3 hours and joint levels, which do not perceptibly rise following IV injection, but extrapolating from IA injection return to normal in 24 hours.
The change in mental attitude suggest your horse may have been going through some systemic disorder (a mild virus?) that has now passed coincidentally following the use of the HA.
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 11:23 am:
Hi Gwen,
Unfortunately my gelding had a very traumatic accident and at only 6 is also a very lovely pasture ornament. If you go and have a look at the web site ruralheritage.com, you will get lots of information on owners who go through the trials and tribulations of owning a horse with EPSM. That web site is very encouraging with a wealth of information and if you own a horse with this condition I would encourage you to join their site!
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 2:40 pm:
Oh Hally, I have pretty much taken up residence on that website! I feel like we are getting to a comfort level with the PSSM and are now trying to tap into the arthritis. It has been seven years of frustration, and I am having the most difficult time making him a lawn ornament. Not sure if it is my special education teacher "where there is a will, there is a way" thinking, or simply my pigheadedness...I will give up on him one of these days.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 10:25 pm:
Diane,
While the use of IV HA (and IM PSGAG) and there benefit controversial, the use of both medications within the joint (IA) is better supported. Our complete thoughts on these and other medications, along with the scientific basis for these conclusions, are in the article I reference above.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 4:40 pm:
Does anyone know anything about a magnesium supplement for relaxing muscles? I was thinking of giving it to my qh with major muscle tension.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 6:47 am:
What does "major muscle tension" mean Gwen? Magnesium is an important mineral in nutrition and a symptom of magnesium toxicity is flaccid paralysis, which explains why one might think it would relax the muscles. Signs of deficiency are muscle tremors. For more on nutritional levels, symptoms and how to diagnose Mg problems see Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Minerals and Nutrition.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 7:58 am:
Well he has PSSM and as a result is very rigid.
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 10:43 am:
Gwen did you ever have a muscle biopsy done on your horse? If not perhaps have it done. My vet here in Alberta did the biopsy and sent it down to Dr Beth Valentine. In the end it only cost $400 (Canadian and that included my vets charges plus Dr Valentine's) The treatment is still the same as far as the diet goes but at least you will know for sure. If it comes back negative then you can explore other avenues.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 11:34 am:
His blood has been tested and showed elevated enzymes, which told us he was at least a candidate for the recommended diet. My ongoing concerns surround his many other issues. He has arthritis in several areas including some vertebrae in his neck, which made it difficult to put him into work to burn the carbs that would help with the PSSM!
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
Hi Gwen,
If you read Dr Valentines website not all horses that suffer from EPSM have elevated enzymes. I think thats why it can be such a tough condition to diagnose unless a biopsy is done.
Your horses problems though different than my geldings injuries, raise the ongoing concern of what is causing the pain and stiffness. My gelding has a healed pelvic fracture (we think). Is it that or the EPSM or both that renders him not rideable. I completely understand your ongoing frustration. When you have two health issues ongoing its hard to separate one disease from another. I sure wouldnt wish EPSM on any owner. There are worst diseases thats for sure, however its also a frustrating one and of course is not curable but treatable with diet.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 10:38 am:
Hally you are right about the problems of accurate diagnosis but I think for the wrong reasons.
I disagree about the diagnosis of EPSM in symptomatic horses that do not have elevated enzymes and find it should greatly question the diagnosis. Also it should be noted that horses with no history of problems can have positive biopsies.
DrO
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 8:06 pm:
Dr O,
As a lay person I can only read the research which it out there and make decisions that are what I think, will benefit my horses. As far as EPSM goes there is a huge difference of opinion among scientists and vets as to the symptoms and treatment of this condition.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 9:21 pm:
It is a very frustrating scenario, Hally. Most often, everyone is making educated guesses as to what the primary condition their horse has. I have spent much time over the past seven years, with at least five vets that all made educated guesses about my qh's condition. Each one was a different diagnosis...
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 9:42 pm:
Gwen I think you are on the right track as far as changing your horses diet goes. It can do nothing but be a positive step. Generally most of us feed far to much grain to our horses. And for an EPSM horse that can mean curtains.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 7:15 am:
Well interestingly enough, he has been on the diet for over a year now. Although we have seen changes in him, I continue to be apprehensive about riding him because of his pretty significant lameness. It is a double-edged sword, because he really should be worked, but he is quite lame still.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 2:14 pm:
I just took my horse out for boarding and want to make sure that he is getting the fat that he needs. He is going to start getting Strategy, which I know is recommended by Dr. V. I really haven't found anything (in my reading) that is as good at getting the fat into them as oil. Has anyone used anything that they could recommend?
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Member:
Bravo
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 7:43 pm:
Dr Stephanie Valberg, University of Minnesota has completed extensive research in this area. She designed a ration called, Re-leve. www.re-leve.com produced by Hallway Feeds in Kentucky. We have a mare who has been on this for 6 months now --- there has been remarkable improvement.
My best of luck! JJ
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Member:
Mike29az
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 9:27 pm:
I have used Nutrena, Legacy formulation, of feed as well as Strategy. I was told they were both alternatives to Re-Leve if you were unable to find Re-Leve easily. My horses tend to like Legacy better and I have had good response with it. Legacy is not a pellet. Jane is right, if you can get Re-Leve it is a good brand. Good luck!
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 6:49 am:
Thank you for that input! The woman who owns the barn where I just started boarding is not a fan of oil. She says it gets all clumpy in the winter. I was thinking that if I could find a way to get that energy into him in a different way than the oil, it would make her life easier (hence, making me not a pain in the neck boarder)!
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New Member:
Cynthra
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 9:10 am:
Has anyone tried Omegatin for their grain ration? I started using it as a conduit for the oil which my gelding (Perch/paint cross) does not like. I ended up cutting the oil to about 2 Tbsp. per feeding. He gets two cups Omegatin in the AM and one Pm with oil plus Quiessence, Vitamin E and selenium. He has always (4 years) been out 24/7 and has free choice grass hay.
This fall he has been having trouble with his hind end: cross cantering, switching leads, breaking to trot and "hitching". His walk is sometimes a bit 'sticky' but he usually gets better as we go along and after trotting for a bit. I have not asked him to canter again. Am I hurting him by letting him work at this level?
In his most recent episode he had trouble cantering and was lame on three of four limbs after flexion by the vet. Bute did not seem to help. The blood work showed elevated muscle enzymes but did not say which ones.
Should I have used Ace?
I wonder if fall grass has aggravated his condition or whether increasing his work load at too fast a pace has done it.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks in advance for the help.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Have you tried rice bran instead of fat? It will help add weight and shine both.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 6:25 pm:
Hi Cynthia,
My horse can come out like that at times too. He was so lame the last time my vet saw him, she thought there was no way it was the muscles. She is concerned that arthritis in his hind end may have gotten pretty bad. Hearing your post makes me think that it is definitely the PSSM and I am thinking that maybe you went too fast too soon with your guy?. Bute didn't do too much with my guy either.
Sara, are you saying to do rice bran instead of oil? I think that the theory with oil/fat is to change thier metabolisms so that they use fat for energy instead of carbs and/or sugar.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 6:52 pm:
Okay, I just spoke with someone at Smartpak and she recommended two products: either cool calories 100, and platform weight. Has anyone heard or used either of these?
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 10:28 am:
If you look on Dr Valentines website www.ruralheritage.com you will find lots information about those products.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 1:34 pm:
oh! I didn't see those two supplements. I will check again...
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New Member:
Cynthra
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 4:56 pm:
Dr. O,
My gelding (please see my posting from Dec 4th) had a massage today to move the toxins out of his muscles and during the final 10- 15 minutes urinated 5 TIMES!!!
One time when he was having an episode of muscle fasiculations he peed 4 times in 20 minutes and I wonder if these things are related?
Can you comment?
Thanks in advance, Cynthia
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 5:57 pm:
Gwen you will probably have to do a search on the members questions. I dont know if Dr V has it on her actual notes. But certainly there are members that use it and Dr V has talked about it when answering their questions. its not available here in Alberta. I wish it was!
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 8:25 pm:
Ahhh, I found a spot where she mentioned cool calories 100!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 7, 2006 - 9:01 am:
Cynthia,
If you would please cut and paste the information on your horse and start a new discussion so we can separate it from Gwen's. You will find the new discussion one page back from this discussion which you reach by using the navigation bar at the top of this page. It is at the bottom of the discussion titles. Thanks.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Dec 8, 2006 - 7:50 am:
Just an FYI for all of my EPSM, PSSM comrades... I ordered my smartpak last night and found a supplement that has Vitamin E, Selenium and Magnesium-which helps with sore muscles. I am VERY excited about that because my guy gets sooo sore and rigid! I will keep everyone updated on how it works!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 10:10 am:
Gwen, important to note is they only help when deficient, and you should note that selenium and to a lesser degree the magnesium are toxic in excess. Be sure to study about each of these in the nutrition section.
DrO
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 4:52 pm:
Thanks Dr. O. I do remember seeing that on here.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 6, 2007 - 10:00 pm:
For all of us that are slaves to the condition of EPSM, you can empathise with my story for today. We all try to describe our horses' funky movement and gait abnormalities, right? Well, I found out how simple it really is. Today when I was riding, one of the girls at the barn said," Hey, he looks pretty good today, his hind legs don't look like a chicken." Once she said it, I thought YES that is what his hind legs looks like!! Maybe Dr. O can include that in his article on the condition under symptoms-chicken-like stride.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2007 - 9:49 am:
Hello Gwen, if you will tape it, I will see if we can get it in the article.
DrO
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