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Discussion on What physical pain would cause a horse to rear? | |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 10:52 am: I read the posts above, and learned that there must be some sort of physical pain to a horse that would rear... My friend's Arabian gelding (8 years old with limited training) reared with her the other day when asked to go forward (she had previously worked him fairly hard on trails and arena work and was doing fine. He caught her by surprise as they were just beginning their ride and she pulled him on top of her with the reins.We have saddled him 5 times - he's fine until he's asked to move, he then either does a bolt/rear kind of thing or bucks like the dickens. He's then fine when it's taken off. We can't find any sore spots on his back or the girth area - he will move forward with a surcingle on with no problems. Yesterday, she had added another pad to hopefully alleviate any pain,but he just tore around her on the lunge line and worked himself into quite a lather. He was very upset at everything after this and wasn't until he was in his own paddock that he calmed down. I want my friend to be safe, but she loves this guy, she's had him for over a year and worked with him on his head shaking and bucking, he was, so we thought, turning into a great trail horse, then this happened. Aside from calling a vet out, which she is doing...is there anything else to try? We wish he would just tell us what's wrong...we're hoping he hasn't turned into an evil horse - he's fine on the ground - just won't go quietly anymore with a saddle on his back. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 11:25 am: Rearing isn't by any means always caused by pain -- my horse rears in his paddock, playing across the fence. Under saddle, it's a refusal to go forward, a major disobedience. Though I agree it's a good idea to rule out back pain first, you may find this is plain old disobedience, and if so this horse probably needs some re-education from a pro. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 12:35 pm: Aileen,I have worked with some rearing horses. There are different things that will set off rearing in different horses, but the common factor is a refusal to move forward. Some horses rear when they decide in their minds that they can't face a puddle, cow, dog, mailbox, etc. and they refuse to move forward. If they are asked to go forward they may choose to go straight up (usually with a twist as they come down, so they can run away from the scary object or just get back to the barn and their friends.) Some horses rear when they want to go forward faster than the rider wants to allow. They get jiggy, full of energy, as if they are "spring-loaded" and send the energy up. If back (or girth, or leg, or foot, or bit, etc.)trouble is not the issue with your friend's horse, then I would definitely do the following: AS SOON as there is any hesitation in going forward, slide one hand down one rein, almost to the horse's mouth if need be, keep shoulders up and back and hold the horse's nose to your knee while asking for forward (in a tight circle) movement. When the circle is completed and the horse is facing the direction you want to go, immediately use your forward cue and ask for forward and straight. If there is ANY hesitation, IMMEDIATELY repeat the above, releasing the rein and asking for forward and straight when the circle is completed. Sometimes I have to ask for two or three circles -- it depends on the feel of the horse's body. If they feel resistant, the resistance will still be there when the rein is released, the horse will refuse to move forward and may go up. If your friend is not a confident rider, I would not recommend that she do this exercise on her own. It has worked with all the rearing horses I've ridden -- None of the horses I've worked with have opted for a rear when its body was bent in a "U-shape" -- too difficult, but the rider's response needs to be immediate and confident and consistant. Holly |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 12:48 pm: Thank you...Once asked to move forward with the saddle on, he stands still, is asked again, stands still, asked again and then the combustible behavior ensues. He does not have this problem without a saddle or with just a surcingle. Is there a way to do this on the ground first before she gets on his back? Also, would it be safer for her to try this bareback or with a saddle on? She has ridden him bareback in the last two weeks, before the rearing began, without a problem. She wanted to try him bareback, but I asked her not to, I think maybe I was wrong or at least wait to see if the vet found anything? She is confident, and able, she has ridden since she was a child in Germany. However, she is confused by his behavior after he had been going so well. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 12:57 pm: Just a thought, could it be possible that he was hurt when he was pulled over and is just afraid of being pulled back over again? |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 1:21 pm: Does he lead ok with a saddle on? Can she lead him forward, back him up, lead him forward again, back him up again, jog him forward, etc. with a saddle on? |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 1:45 pm: He will not move willingly with a saddle on while being led or lunged...unless it's the lunge/rear/buck/run kind of thing, very dangerous because we have no idea which direction he will go...I haven't seen her ask him to back up since the incident. Probably because he gets so out of control it hasn't even been a thought.Also, as a sidenote: one of the ladies at the barn went up to him to test his back...his head was down, she put her hands just behind the wither and pressed. He came up with quite a start, it appeared he might bolt, but he did not get out of control...his head was up the rest of the time and there wasn't another reaction from him aside from ears, eyes and stature being very cautious. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 2:16 pm: Have you had your saddle fit checked my a reputable saddle fitter? It can make a huge difference. Maybe your saddle tree is pinching?Ellie |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 2:21 pm: Hi,She's been riding him in this saddle for a year; but no, I don't believe she's had it checked for fit. Thank you, I'll ask her about it! |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 2:38 pm: Ellie's right, checking the saddle fit is a great first step. What kind of saddle is this, by the way?What happens if she lunges him first for 10 minutes with just the surcingle, then puts the saddle on him and asks him to walk forward in hand? Does he accept it better when he's warmed up? (Is he cold-backed?) When he reared on her, was it at the beginning or the end of the ride? |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 3:36 pm: She has a close contact Stubben.We'll try the surcingle to warm him up, then the saddle...When he reared the first time, she had just finished tacking him up, he seemed very quiet and willing, so she just got on and asked him to go forward, he hesitated, she asked with a little more of nudge(no spurs), he hesitated, she thought maybe something was wrong, but she asked again with a bit harder kick, then he reared. She came off with the reins in hand and accidently pulled him over on her. When she woke up (a couple of minutes - she thinks) he was standing quietly near her. We've checked the blanket - no burrs. I'm actually not sure if she's ever just gotten on him, without a warmup, I think so, but perhaps it was in the arena, the incident occurred at the barn. Thanks for the input...we really just want to figure this out! She does not have a lot of money to spend on a trainer, so anything to try safely and any thoughts are greatly appreciated! |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 3:59 pm: You may want to try a different saddle on him if one is available to see if his reaction is generalized to all saddles.Also look at proper placement - does the saddle let his shoulders move freely? Many people put saddles too far forward and this can cause discomfort. I'd try a different saddle, I'd have the Stuebben checked out and I'd have the vet check the horse out. Are you sure his mouth is okay? Have the vet look in there, too, as the bit may be causing him discomfort. Rearing can be very dangerous, so, if there isn't something to "fix" per se, your friend may want to put him in training a month or two with a professional who can send him forward through a rear. I've been riding for years and would not want to sort out a rearer's problem. Good luck to you and your friend. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 4:14 pm: I don't believe his mouth is the problem because the last 5 times she's tried the saddle, he's only had a rope halter on him, but you never know...Yes, he is definately dangerous if asked to move with a saddle on his back. My guy is huge compared to this little arab, should the saddle be sure to fit, or would it be ok if the saddle were to big, wide, etc.? Just curious, why would the saddle be causing him pain now? Muscle changes? Lack of muscle? I appreciate the input. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 4:41 pm: Saddles that fit poorly can cause a lot of pain. My saddle fitter told me he'd seen a horse literally crash to its knees when a poorly fitting saddle was cinched tight. I don't know if that's the issue here, but there isn't any excuse for using a poorly fitting saddle.Saddle fit changes constantly in horses that are maturing and undergoing training. They build back and shoulder muscles as they are consistently worked through. As they grow older and are less vigorously exercised, they lose topline muscle and grow a little hollow near the withers and it gets harder to keep the saddle level (it tends to dip in front). Depending on where the horse is building or losing muscle, the saddle can pinch at the shoulders, bridge, and create pressure points. The way the horse is ridden can also greatly impact this -- horses that travel hollow all the time may lose enough topline muscle that the saddle stops fitting, even though the horse is regularly worked. Riders who sit crooked also put more pressure on one side of the saddle than the other, and that can cause backpain too. How old is her saddle? Saddles lose their spring, trees can break. At a minimum, the saddle should be restuffed periodically to ensure good fit. Has a saddle fitter ever looked at this saddle on the horse's back? When's the last time she had it reflocked? Was the horse relaxed when this was done, or was he a bundle of nerves? (Fitting a saddle to a tense back means a not-so-great fit.) Just some thoughts! MW |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 4:58 pm: Hello, again,Just read the previous notes. From the reaction the horse gave when his back was pressed behind the withers, I would tend to assume that there is a soreness either on his backbone or on his shoulders. Chris M. is right when she talks about saddles being placed too far forward. I learned this when one of my lesson ponies consistantly went lame in the front after a couple of lessons each summer. The pony saddle we used had a wide tree to fit his low withers, but it was a bit wider than needed (sooooo hard to find just the right fit) and would work it's way forward onto his withers after a bit of trot work and definately at the canter. I finally found a pony Wintec that is almost perfect but still need to use a crupper. No more front end lameness with him. Is it possible the horse has been injured recently with a bang or bump from other horses or from ducking under something? I'd expect it to leave a mark, but you never know. Please have him checked out by a vet before trying to train him to stop rearing. Be certain his girth area is checked as well. I trained a horse a few years ago that would not consent to anything pushing up against his girth area. He is a police horse in Boston now, so we were successful in our communication with him, but it took eight solid hours in the round pen one Saturday before he could handle trotting in a relaxed frame with a saddle girthed up on him, and it took four solid hours the next morning to remind him that it was okay to wear a saddle on Sunday, too. As to your question about training for curbing the rear before the rider gets on . . . I guess my gut belief is that if the rearing occurs with a rider on his back, it needs to be dealt with from his back -- not from the ground, but only after all the physical tests have panned out. Holly |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 5:05 pm: Hi Aileen ~ it's me againHave a vet check the out the horse. Surely, your friend can afford at least a vet visit? It might not tell you a lot but at least the vet can give some sort of physical examination. If you can't afford a vet, look into a equine massage therapist or equine chiropractor (although I think the price will be the same). Without a physical confirmation that the back is sore you are stuck trying to figure out if this horse is sore or has found out a way to avoid work. Do a wither's tracing and take your saddle to the local tack shop. Generally, they have people on staff who will look it all over (may even come out to your barn for nominal fee) to tell you if the saddle is fitting or not. A non-fitting saddle is like someone poking you in the back on your kidneys! If he is truly sore, you are doing him a disfavor by working him; if he has gotten spoiled then you are doing him a disfavor by not working him. Personally, I think this horse has learned that he can scare your friend and she gets off. He also doesn't sound like he has enough ground manners (i.e. won't lunge under saddle???) and that your friend has not been warming him up prior to riding. So overall, how old is this horse? What type of riding experience does this horse have? Who has ridden this horse before your friend? Where did she buy him and has the previous owner had a rearing problem (which they forgot to mention when they sold the horse)? I would take this horse back to BASICS. I would take him to a roundpen and start working him. Get him obedient to her w/o tack and to word/cues commands. If his back is sore this would give you time to work him, while his back heals. Eventually, you can also sack him out with the saddle and re-accustom him to accepting the saddle etc... But I think you will find that this horse will become very aggressive in the RP because he has learned that intimidation gets him what he wants - out of work. The book: 'There are no problem horses, only problem riders' by Mary Twelveponies is the only book I know of that addresses the problem of rearing. She even says "get a professional." |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 5:40 pm: The saddle could have a broken tree or point. The act of girthing it up, could be creating pressure/pain where none existed prior to the break. (Maybe the first incident was for a different reason and his fall broke the saddle?)The horse could have lost condition and the saddle no longer fits. Or he could have gained weight and now it no longer fits. Or, an unrelated accident could be causing him pain that the saddle magnifies. My own horse is very round but not that tall - she takes a wide treed saddle. So, yours may or may not fit - you'll have to assess the fit. (Dr. O has a saddle fitting article.) If it is a little too wide, you can pad it up and at least see if he will lunge with it on. If he won't go forward with a saddle and no rider, I don't think I'd put a rider on him. I'd work on getting him comfortable enough to move with a saddle first. If he does go forward with a different saddle, you may want to just lead a rider around the lunge ring a couple of times and get off when it is the rider's idea. Gradually, you can build on that. But that would only be if you were fairly certain he was comfortable in a different saddle. If you take the suspect saddle and hold the cantle against your body and the pommel with your hands, sometimes you can feel a break that by pulling the saddle toward you (front to back) a bit and releasing. A broken saddle tree has too much give and no spring back. The points are under the grommets on the front area ... you can gently try flexing that area (toward the centerline of the saddle), too. Any thing that has a lot of give and doesn't return to shape could be an issue. If it was a western saddle, I'd tell you to inspect the bottom side carefully for nails that may have worked out and are poking him ... I've seen that a few times. Padding up a saddle that is too narrow and pinches anyway just takes up more room and makes it pinch worse ... so that test really didn't tell you much. Hope this gives you something to consider. Chris |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 5:45 pm: Thanks Melissa, great questions, I'm actually going to print this thread at the end of the day and show it to her to give her some ideas.Holly, we were thinking (hoping) that he did something to himself to cause this or that it's the saddle and he's not just being a brat...It's possible he could have hurt himself when he fell and since she was out, she did not see how he landed. Would we see perhaps a bruise on the shoulder or spine? It would be sore to the touch, correct? He was only sore with his head down, does that make a difference? Hello Rebecca! Yes she is having the vet come out...she just can't afford a trainer, and perhaps I could get my saddle fitter to come see her horse for free. I'm going to work on that.... The Arabian gelding is about 8 years old, was VERY green and not very trusting when I first met him. But came around quickly...he's very smart. She is determined not to teach him that this behavior is ok. He becomes combustible only with the saddle on and is asked to move forward, (he's fine with the saddle on as long as we don't ask him to move forward) and then it's not directed at anyone or anything. His ground manners (without the saddle) are great. I guess we find it very odd that this behavior just happened without any provocation it seems. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 5:50 pm: Great info Christine. As always, thanks for your input!Another thought I forgot to mention. The front of his hoofs appear to be getting a trim! It looks as if he's dragging all four of his feet. Any thoughts on this? |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 8:05 pm: Dragging feet suggests a nerve problem to me.Holly |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2002 - 10:23 am: Holly, Would he have to be lame to have a nerve problem? Also, what about if his shoulder or spine is hurting. He's not visibly lame at all... She said his back feet are worse than his front, but they all are trimmed by dragging.Christine, she said her saddle tree is not broken and it has been reflocked recently. However, we are going to try a different saddle after hearing what the vet has to say. Should she continue to lunge him with just a surcingle, since he's not visibly lame, in case he's just being a "you know what"? He used to have an incredible floaty trot, it's not so much anymore, he doesn't seem to be picking up his feet as high at the trot or canter... I spoke to my friend last night and was VERY grateful for all the input. Thank you all very much! Dr. O, I think you might be getting another member! |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2002 - 11:12 am: Hi, Aileen,I'm not a vet so can't give you an answer to your question. I can tell you that I have had experience with the dragging feet. Started with one front, then both front, then incoordination in the hind, then paralyzation. Vet figured it was a tumor on the brain stem. Definitely get a thorough exam done. If a horse moved well at one time and then starts moving differently and having violent reactions to routine handling, my first thought would be that there is something physical going on. I hope it is not the case with this horse. It's so much easier for me to deal with a behavioral issue than a physical one. Holly |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 2, 2002 - 12:00 pm: Thanks Holly,His owner is calling to make an appointment for the vet today. I think she thought it may be behavioral because she hadn't called the vet yet. After hearing all of this information on this thread, she's calling him today. I'll post after the vet sees him... Thanks again to everyone! |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 3, 2002 - 6:43 am: This sounds just like my Paso! He was fine for four months after I bought him-no issues other than young horse behavior.While unloading from a trailer, the girl I was with released the safety latch before she had hold of him and he reared and flipped over backwards. Had my vet out to check him over as he had a couple of abrasions over his eye and of course because he had fallen. Couldn't find any problems, but we wrapped his front legs and buted him for five days for precaution. Didn't ride him during that time. Next time I rode, we had just begun to warm up when he was startled by a sudden noise. Started to circle and as he came out of the circle, he went up in a rear and came down with a buck. Scared me to death, as I'm somewhat chicken. Called my instructor, who came out and rode him for over an hour. It took almost 40 minutes for him to stop the little half-rears and bucks. She is very good and just pushed him forward each time he tried. Determined this was a big attitude problem and he needed wet blanket time. Had another rider with extremely quiet hands come out twice a week to work with him. Bucks and rears were now down to about 4-5 per hour session. This was driving me crazy, as I was afraid to ride my own horse and couldn't quite believe it was just all of a sudden an attitude problem. However, I understand it does/can happen after the settling in period. Had another Paso owner/friend out to take a look. We tried riding in a hackamore, snaffle, and Myler bit. Same problem. But we had eliminated the bit issue. Checked his saddle as well as we could (we have both been to several saddle fitting clinics and feel we know a little about pressure points and fit). No problems that we could find. The bucking and rearing were better but still occurring about 3/4 times per session. Finally called my back-up vet who is also a certified chiropractor. As soon as he went to the right pelvis and pressed on whatever the pressure point is, my guy just about went down to the ground. My vet adjusted his pelvis-it was out of alignment from the fall. The little guy was in PAIN and trying to tell us as best he could. We buted him for five days and didn't ride him for a week. That is the last time he has bucked or reared-been over four months now. Had my chrio-vet out one more time to recheck and only a slight adjustment was needed. My primary vet is excellent and very thorough. She was very pleased to hear my back up vet was able to solve the problem. Chiropractor services are something she would like to learn also as it can be very beneficial. I think our horses are trying to tell us something when behavior issues start. The only thing you can do is try to eliminate the cause through trial and error. Start with the bit (also make sure his teeth have been correctly checked by a vet trained in extra equine dental courses or by a equine dentist). Spend the money to have a professional saddle fitter check the saddle. We have learned this is one of the major issues with back problems, lameness, and behavior. (Good article on my site at https://www.nchorsenews.com/SaddleFitting.htm) If the mouth/bit and saddle are okay, have a trained professional ride. Call in another vet just for a second opinion the same as you would a human doctor if it was you or a family member that had a problem. I know you said your friend does not have a lot of money to spend, but there are times when you do have to spend money to fix a problem. It’s part of owning horses. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 3, 2002 - 11:33 am: Hi Liz,It just is my job to point out that there appears to be no scientific definintion or evidence for the diagnosis of an out-of-line pelvis that can then be adjusted back into place through chiropractic manipulation. But like your other vet I am delighted the horse got better. DrO |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 3, 2002 - 4:55 pm: Hi Dr. O,Yes, I know. But when it works, it really is amazing. He had a couple of 4th year students with him and showed them how/what he was testing for, starting at the head. When he pressed on the left pelvis point nothing happened, but when he went to the right, the horse just about went down. After the adjustment, he went back to the same point and there was no reaction. For whatever reason, the bucking and rearing stopped. It drives me crazy to not know the answer/solution to something so I'm prone to try a variety of things! You probably know the vet I used. Neuse River Vet. Clinic out of Wendell. Bob and Jim Myer. Jim is the one I called. |
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Posted on Friday, Jul 5, 2002 - 9:45 am: Time, patient expert riding, rest, and NSAIDS were all applied also just before the bucking went away I KNOW all those can have a beneficial effect.DrO |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 8, 2002 - 6:03 pm: Liz,Did Dr. Jim tell you it is usually the right hip that shows this type of sensitivity? I've watched him work a few times and seen similar reactions. Makes me wonder why that would be ... because we mount from the left? Or lead from the left? Chris |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2002 - 5:32 am: No, but it's a good question to ask next time I talk with him.I understand the time, rest, NSAIDS and riding Dr. O, but this behavior was still occuring every ride 3 times a week for a month after the trailer incident until Dr Jim came out. Maybe the five days of rest and bute made the difference, but the pain reaction was very real. To the best of my knowledge, Jim and Bob are the only qualified vets in the Raleigh area that perform these services. There are others around, but we have been told they only had a few weeks of training. In my mind, that would be similar to having a dental tech perform a service the dentist should be doing. Lots of schooling. If interested, I'll call and ask Jim just what his background is. We've talked about it before, but it was a few years ago and my brain dosn't retain info that long! One of the reasons I've been a member on this site for so many years! |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 9, 2002 - 10:46 am: Hello all,Thanks for the info...Could someone tell where I could get a hold of someone like Dr. Jim in Northern California? My friend put some liniment on her horse's back to hopefully alleviate any muscle pain...he had an allergic reaction to it and swelled up a lot. We couldn't even run our fingers across his back for 4 days without him flinching and saying OUCH!! It's better now and we have lunged him with very loose side reins (just to give him the idea that he's working) and he's very cooperative. Of course the surcingle scared him to death at first, but then he realized it wouldn't hurt him and he was very good. We THINK that he had lost trust in his owner because she kept putting the saddle on his back and hurting him...However, I do not know for sure if this is fact... The vet wanted to wait to see him until his swelling went down so he'll probably come out this week...He's still sensitive there, but not nearly as bad as he was. |
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Posted on Friday, Jul 19, 2002 - 10:06 am: Update...The vet looked at this guy last night and said he thought he was a good, intelligent horse that does NOT like to hurt. They did a number of lameness tests, etc., he was no longer sore at all on his back, so they put her saddle on him. He was fine with the rope cinch loose, but when it was tightened he threw a fit. So they tried another cinch (neoprene) and he was just fine. The vet said he saw nothing to be worried about regarding his health. We are going to work with him tonight and she might get on his back...depending on his attitude. We are pretty sure he was abused before they got him and we think that with the pain he associated with the cinch tightened caused his severe reactions...we're going to SAFELY experiment and see what we can do... |
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 20, 2002 - 1:32 am: Update...Tonight my friend got on him bareback and walked and trotted him for 15 minutes around 1/2 of a very large arena. He did VERY well -- while he was a tad bit apprehensive at first, he was soon very relaxed -- no bucks, rears, spooks...nothing, except a raised head and concerned stance, eyes and ears. Thank goodness! Now the question is...will she want to deal with this mystery sporadic behavior and for how long. She already realizes that he could explode at any time - as could any horse (thanks Holly for your input) - but I must say...even though I've only been around horses in my childhood and for the last 3.5 years... I have never witnessed a horse do anything like this. Thank you to everyone for all of your help, advice and suggestions. |
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