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Discussion on Hunter/Jumper Pony Whoa Problems | |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 22, 2002 - 5:47 pm: I have a 9-year-old, 13.1 hand, pony gelding that I purchased for my 7-year-old daughter, who rides hunter/jumper (she is growing out of her small pony). The new pony is awesome in every way except for his willingness to respond to "whoa" commands, which is of obvious concern. For safety reasons, I have not allowed my daughter to ride the pony until I am convinced the problem is corrected. I currently have the pony with a trainer who is making some progress, but we feel like there is still a solution that will make THE difference.A little history... The previous owners of the pony had bought the pony for their young daughter, and the pony soon proved too much for her, althought they couldn't understand why the pony had become so difficult to stop. After I purchased the pony, my analysis soon discovered a major problem, which was that in addition to the very gentle rubber snaffle that was being used on the pony, the pony had learned to get his tongue over the bit, putting him in total control. After trying several different bits, we now have the pony in a corkscrew snaffle with a rubber tongue depressor attached. The pony is definitely not getting his tongue over the bit, but his "whoa" problem hasn't disappeared either. Out trainer is trying to correct the problem, but has basically decided that the pony is simply a strong pony that will take a strong rider to stop. My feeling is that by getting his tongue over the bit, the pony learned a habit -- not stopping when asked -- that should be able to be "un-learned". I'm willing to invest more time in the pony as long as I feel there is a chance, but I'm beginning to lose hope. However, even if I choose to sell the pony because he's not right for my daughter, I would still like to correct the problem if possible instead of selling someone my problem. I would really like to save a pony that I believe has great potential and I really believe that he's confused. Any advice? |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 22, 2002 - 6:19 pm: Hi,I am not an expert, but here is what works for me when riding young or hard to stop horses. I will never pull as they will pull harder than you and after all they are stronger. What I do is give the command to stop. A slight closing of my fingers first outside then inside rein sit very still and say woah or stand or whatever your word is. If he does not respond I turn him in in circle or circles (small) untill he listens. Usually this only takes a few times. This also works on a horse that breaks into a canter when excited etc. How does he turn? I ride spunky arabs and this is the best lesson I ever learned. They learn that it is easier to stop than to go around and around. Good luck with your pony. Katrina |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 22, 2002 - 6:34 pm: Dear Charles,I agree with you that it is important to correct this pony's problem, whether or not you will be keeping him for your daughter. One consideration here (which might seem a little simplistic) is that horses (or ponies) are not stopped with their mouths--their brains do the stopping. So rather than looking for stronger riders or stronger bits, it may be more helpful to do some serious backtracking and begin a very basic training program from the ground. I know that I would be very reluctant to ride an equine that was not readily stoppable! How does the pony behave in hand? Does he lead kindly, without pulling ahead or lagging behind, and does he halt when asked? If not, then you need to get him solidly in compliance before you start worrying about ridden behavior. My husband's TB gelding from the track had a common problem with reluctant stopping--after all, that was the last thing that he was encouraged to do!! But we fixed the problem in no time, in a very mild rubber snaffle, by first teaching halt from the ground and then under saddle. Alexandra Kurland has a website devoted to operant conditioning in the horse, and for my husband's gelding, it worked wonders. He now has an excellent set of brakes, and a special emergency brake, as well! The way this works is as follows: First, using operant conditioning techniques, you teach the horse that there is a signal that means "Great! You did the right thing! Now you get a reward!" This means that you do not have to give the reward the second that the correct action occurs, which makes life much easier, and communications more straight forward, as well. After Scottie figured out the system, which took all of 20 minutes, we got down to the business of reinforcing the halt. Each time the reward (honey grahams cereal bit) was given, I was inadvertently giving another signal, because the treat pouch had a velcro closure that made a ripping noise when opened. We discovered later that Scot had really tuned in to the velcro noise, because when we finally went out on the trail, my husband had occasion to readjust his velcro glove closure, and when Scot heard the sound, he stopped dead in a beautiful square halt and looked remarkably pleased with himself. He had learned to halt from the action of my husband's seat and legs, but had also decided that velcro was a cue as well! To this day, he comes down to a halt from any gait, fast or slow, using the usual aids, but he will also halt at the sound of velcro--even when he is turned out in the paddock. I suppose this could have become a problem, but it has actually turned out to be quite handy on many occasions. The operant conditioning work was a great help in overcoming other naughty or undesirable behaviors over the years--when we had to medicate a painful eye, for instance, and to stop him cavorting about on the lead when led out to pasture in the morning (and scaring the stable workers doing the leading!) Alexandra Kurland's website gives great instructions for using this training system, I don't have the website handy, but you can get it if you do a search for her name. Also check out "operant conditioning" and "clicker training." I know that some folks feel that this sort of thing is "gimmicky" or too untraditional, but it is certainly effective! After all, think of all those ponies in circuses that are performing intricate programs at liberty--they are generally trained using variations of operant conditioning. I think if you give it a serious try, you will be pleased with the results, but take the time to learn the ins and outs before you begin, and start from the ground first. Our Scottie loves clicker training, he thinks HE is doing the training instead of vice-versa, and really acts as though he loves it! If you have any more questions, feel free to email me privately. Anne Breden |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002 - 4:14 am: For more suggestions see the discussions at Training Horses: Behavioral Problems: Resistance to Stopping: Whoa Problems.DrO PS I will move this discussion there in a few days. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002 - 2:29 pm: Thanks for the advice, which brings up additional information that might be helpful. The pony has great ground manners. He clips and ties easily, but was initially difficult to load. After only two trips, however, he is loading just fine. His stall manners are great, and he leads easily and comfortably. On the longe, he will occasionally pull-out at the canter, dragging the handler, so we rarely longe except when we have access to a small round ring. Under saddle, he suddenly feels the need to anticipate the next command, of course, while assuming that his next command will ask him to go faster. We try to help him understand that the next command will not necessarily ask him to go faster by keeping him frequently at the walk and trot.Now for the whoa problem: When we apply pressure to the bit, he will stop easily at the walk, a bit more difficult at the trot, and even more difficult at the canter. He lowers his chin until it is almost touching his neck and pulls against the rider in a "tug-of-war". This action is unlike his personality in almost every other area, where he is kind, cooperative and eager to please. I'm sure everyone will agree that playing "tug-of-war" with your horse is neither fun nor productive, and I don't think the pony enjoys it either! He did learn during his tongue-over-the bit-days, however, what he could get away with. I hope this additional information helps. Thank you for your continued advice. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002 - 5:00 pm: Charles--Runaway/hard-to-stop ponies are made, not born, and they are usually made by little riders who inadvertently train them to behave that way. Somewhere along the way, this pony has been rewarded for this behavior somehow.Inexperienced riders, nervous about falling off or being run away with, tend to grip their mounts fiercely with their legs to stay on (the "go" cue) and hang on to the reins to hold their ponies back at the same time, so they won't run off with them (the "stop" cue). The pony quickly learns to run as soon as possible (after all, it's being told to), because the only time it gets any comfort in its mouth is when it is at last allowed to run. The "stop" cue doesn't mean stop anymore, because the "go" cue is being given at the same time. So, of course, they are eager to run and loathe to stop. Maybe your daughter doesn't do this, but the pony is already trained not to stop. When my children were young, we used to successfully reschool these kinds of ponies for our friends and neighbors, by teaching them a different lesson--that they can enjoy perfect comfort standing still on a slack rein. Go back to a point in training where the pony responds well to the aids, and build from there. Drill on halts from a slow walk, and make sure the pony is rewarded with perfect comfort, and a little rest, every time it stops. It is crucial to reschool the child riding the pony too, if necessary, so that its new lesson is not undone. In general, not having to move is a good thing to a horse, once the freshness has been worked off a little, so be absolutely certain that your daughter's pony is not being "punished" in any way for stopping. Some ponies are more sensitive than others, and it may be that something your daughter does that is ok with her old pony means something else to this one. Hope this helps. |
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 1:40 pm: Is there a piece of equipment that could also help the situation? Also, I've heard that even teeth problems could cause this.Your input is much appreciated!! |
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 25, 2002 - 7:11 pm: Hi,I have used a DrOpped noseband to prevent a horse opening their mouths,so as to stop the tonge going over the bit, but I prefer not to. This wont help the stopping only retraining will do this. Harsh bits might stop them temporarily but in the hands of a kid its a bad idea. Wish I could help more. Katrina |
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 2:29 pm: What about a training devise that would prevent him from DrOpping his head, which may allow the bit to be more affective? |
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 27, 2002 - 5:55 pm: Hi,I have heard of anti grazing devices to prevent ponies from putting thier heads down and pulling the reins out of small childrens hands. I have never used them so I dont know how effective they are or if this will help in any way. Katrina |
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 28, 2002 - 11:46 pm: Dear Charles,I'm afraid that I have to say that there is no training device that will solve a problem with obedience. Only training will do that. There are no reliable quick fixes that do not carry their own problems along with them. I've seen horses with martingales, chambons, draw reins, vicious bits, tie downs, overchecks, and side reins that bolted, reared, ran away, and otherwise endangered their riders. The only safe way to deal with a behavior problem is to change the behavior through training the horse. Horses are the most amazing creatures to train-- they might not be the most intelligent of all the mammals, but they sure can learn! Please take the time to train your pony so that it understands what is required, and happily complies with the riders wishes. Don't depend on some extremely fallible device to try to solve this problem. Anne Breden |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 9:59 am: Thanks for the input. I would only use a training devise in combination with actual training. I just didn't know if there was something someone knew about that could supplement our efforts. The pony has been with a trainer now for two months ($$$), and I haven't seen much improvement. I've been trying to gather this information to, hopefully, be able to offer quality information to the trainer to assist her efforts. Does anyone know of a trainer in the Atlanta metro area that would be suitable to assist with this problem?Also, I haven't received any feedback on whether or not dental problems could be causing part of this -- any advice? THANKS!! |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 1:18 pm: Dear Charles,Is it possible that you could enlist the help of a small, light, experienced older rider (talented teen or older) who could school the pony for you under the direction of a sympathetic instructor perhaps? You might be able to direct the training yourself if you take the time to work out a safe and kind plan to change this pony's behavior. You need to start at the walk first, then move up to trot, then to canter halts; practice in an enclosed area that has the maximum safety and security, and don't move up to the next gait until the halt is confirmed at the slower gait. I strongly believe in training plans that make it easy for the horse to do the right thing, hard for the horse to do the wrong thing, plans in which correct behavior is rewarded and incorrect behavior is generally ignored rather than punished. I think that punishing a pony for failing to halt would be counter-productive. Look for training articles by John Lyons, or see if there is a Lyons trainer in your area. Often you can work under their direction at intervals, while practicing at home. (Rather than sending the pony off for training.) Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson, and Monty Roberts followers all use similar techniques and have good success. See if anyone is having a clinic in your area, and check their websites for local trainers. You haven't mentioned much about your daughter's level of training and expertise. Seven years old is quite young; perhaps it would help to have her skills evaluated by a respected instructor, and get her some extra training as well. It is always a good idea to have a pony examined by your veterinarian to rule out physiological causes for behavioral problems; I certainly agree that this would be a good plan! How long have you owned this pony? Was he thoroughly vet checked before purchase? Have you made sure that all the pony's tack, especially his saddle and bit, are comfortable and well fitted? Good luck, Anne B. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 3:57 pm: Thank you for your response. My seven-year-old daughter has never ridden the pony. I don't consider the pony safe enough for her, although she is an excellent rider for her age. She currently rides a safe small pony, and I've recently purchased for her a safe large pony that she is now showing successfully. The pony in this forum did not work out for her because of his whoa problems, and I now plan to sell him, preferably with his behavior problems corrected. The pony is being ridden by his trainer, who is a small woman with a great deal of riding experience. So, I don't believe it's the rider sending the wrong messages. I am a six-foot man and, although I've been on the pony, don't consider myself to be the best trainer for the pony, which is why I sent the pony to a local trainer's barn for training.The pony has been examined and is in perfect health. I don't know, however, if his teeth were checked, which is why I had asked if this could be contributing to the problem -- I have scheduled an appointment with an equine dentist. With his whoa problem corrected, this pony is awesome. He's beautiful, a wonderful mover and jumper, and I want to see him succeed. There is other history earlier in the forum. Thanks to everyone for continued advice. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 7:28 pm: Charles--It sounds as though you've done everything you could. If you really want to sell the pony with its brakes in good working order, though, here's something to think about. Why has the pony shown no improvement after two months with this trainer? It's really a pretty simple, relatively common problem--somewhere along the line, the pony has learned that it is safer, i.e., less unpleasant, to keep going than it is to stop. All a trainer has to do is teach it a new lesson: it's actually safer, more pleasant, to stop, when asked, than to keep going. A good trainer will be able to "read" the pony accurately and figure out the problem, and then set up a schooling situation that gives it an opportunity to learn the new lesson.Unfortunately, there is no shortage of people "with a great deal of riding experience" who actually know very little about horse psychology and training. A good rider may not ruin a well-schooled horse, but may also know nothing about reschooling a pony with a problem. A good trainer should be able to figure this one out and fix it in a very short space of time. SOME degree of improvement could be apparent in a little as a few minutes--really. And I just want to acknowledge your conscientious persistence in troubleshooting this for the pony's sake. Thank you. |
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Posted on Monday, Jul 29, 2002 - 8:09 pm: Hi charles,I agree with Kim. The posts I wrote about earlier about turning in circles when not stopping at the first aid should have gotten the pony to stop within the first lesson. There are other methods of teachiing to stop but this is the fastest and easiest for me.. I have an arab who will try and bolt if scared but if I spend 15 minutes reenforcing stopping turning etc he is like a well schooled horse. Only because its more fun to do whats asked if not he will have to work harder they are smart enough to learn this pretty quick. Good luck with the pony what ever you decide to do. A good trainer will help this pony learn Katrina |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 7:54 am: Good post, Kim! I think that you have made some very valid points. Charles, I hope that you are soon successful in finding a new and more suitable home for this pony.Anne B. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 9:35 am: I'm not much of an expert on training horses but I have to share my little experience! I bought a 5 yr old throughbred mare some 3 years ago. I basically bought her from a friend because I had heard from various sources that she had changed hands many times because she was wild and impossible and was on the verge of being put away. I felt this was her SOS. Well, I took her home and she was IMPOSSIBLE. Dangerous. I couldn't get anywhere near her. When I managed to tie her up she loved being groomed. She was dangerous to ride. She would buck and race off with me. Anything wicked she did! I got a trainer to help me who thought I was crazy to bother with her. Over the last 3 years, with lots of love and patience between the trainer & I, we have got the best out of her. I did daily lunging with verbal commands and no riding for weeks on end. I eventually started riding, just in the school and eventually ventured out. I did get an aid. A 'Market Harbourough' which helps direct the horse's head downwards should he raise it above the height at which control can be reasonably exerted. Helping to keep a more 'round' position helps you be in control better. My horses are my babies and I couldn't just sell them off. This was a challenge I had dreampt of. I am still not 100% successful but I'm definitely getting there. If your horse is worth it, don't give up, it just takes time and a lot of patience. I really believe it can be done. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 11:58 am: Thanks to everyone for their continued and encouraging responses. I am interviewing a new trainer today, and feel better equipped to ask better questions because of the input I have received from this forum. I believe that this pony should have improved more by this time, and I believe that he wants to please but simply doesn't know how. Keep your fingers crossed that I can find a trainer who can communicate the right messages.Continued input is certainly appreciated. I'll post the results of my efforts. Thanks again. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 30, 2002 - 12:56 pm: Hi Charles -You might be interested in looking for a book called, "There are no problem horses, only problem riders" by Mary Twelveponies. The book has just been re-issued with a forward by John Lyons, though I have the older book (which you may be able to find at the library). Anyway - Mary recommends that you teach a horse to doubleback, for horses that take off or who have behavioral problems like this. In the doubleback you turn the horse one direction and then adbruptly turn the horse back to go another direction. You continue the back and turns, until you feel satisfied the horse is listening. I know this sounds "cowboy" but the trainer I worked for in college always taught her horses to do this in the round pen before she brought them outside of the arena for other work. I admire you for wanting to fix the problem and not pass it on to another rider. Also, that you are not encouraging your daughter to put herself at risk. Commendable. |
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