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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Calming the Nervous or Excited Horse » |
Discussion on 7 y.o. TB Mare Won't Stand for Hooves Being Handled | |
Author | Message |
Member: Nisquy |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 7:52 am: I recently purchased a green, 7 y.o. TB mare, unraced, with great bloodlines and a great disposition, good mover, great conformation etc. etc....However....She would let me handle and pick her front hooves (which had new shoes on), but when I went to do the hind feet, she got extremely nervous and started moving around and wouldn't let me pick her feet up. I read the discussions in your site and have been trying to desensitize her etc. Trying positive reinforcement, etc. Most of the time she will give me the front feet, not for too long, but after 3 or 4 tries I get the job done. As for the hind feet, she will rest one or the other on the toe, and I then pick it out quickly and try to hold onto it a little bit at a time. (Very slow progress.)Now she has lost a shoe and her feet need to be done. I have a farrier coming out probably over the weekend. The other night she was anxious to get into her stall to eat dinner and when my trainer was holding up her one front hoof, she started the nervous hopping, got one foot off the rubber mat, slipped and fell to her knees! I was of course horrified! Once she gets nervous, it seems nothing will calm her down. Someone on your list mentioned possibly using a tranquilizer...I'm definitely interested! I don't want the farrier visit to be a bad experience. (I have a feeling this might be the cause of the nervousness in the first place.) I also don't want her or the farrier to get hurt. Can you recommend a tranquilizer? At what dosage? Do I need to have a vet come out the first time to determine what's needed? I was also told there is a Bach flower remedy called "Rescue Remedy" that might help. Where do I get this? Does anyone know if it works? I don't have much time...will be needing a tranquilizer myself if this continues! Thanks for any input! Bonny |
Member: Chrism |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 6:27 pm: Sometimes a horse does better if a second person holds them with a halter/lead while you pick up the hind hooves. The horse can use her neck/head as a cantilever and will feel less like she is falling than if she is tied.You can take 2 polo bandages and tie them end to end. Then take this and wrap it in a figure 8 around her chest, criss-crossing over her wither and then around her buttocks. Tie it off. Many times such a contraption with help a horse balance and feel secure. A stableizer also works well. Check product reviews for more information. You may want to leave the shoes off behind until you have a chance to slowly sort this out and build her confidence. HTH. Chris |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 5:03 am: Hello Bonnie,Christine' idea of the stablizer is a good one. The slowness with which you are achieving results with positive reinforcement suggests you are having trouble getting the timing of the reward paired up with the desired behavior in a manner the horse is understanding. If you feel tranquilization is your best option Acepromazine is probably best. You will find the article on this and other at Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics. DrO |
Member: Nisquy |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 28, 2002 - 1:18 pm: Thank you Chris and Dr. O. for your advice. I read the posts on the Stableizer and will certainly check this out! In the meantime, the other front shoe was coming off and my barn owner had her farrier come out yesterday (unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I was at work at the time so didn't witness the event). It apparently took quite some time to accomplish getting two front shoes on, and the back feet were impossible so were left untrimmed (they actually looked pretty good and without drugs I wasn't even going to have someone attempt this). I'm not sure if she is afraid of trying to balance on three legs, or just has some kind of hoof phobia!Anyway, my original plan was to have my farrier and a vet come out together, but with the holiday this week etc. that was impossible! I am definitely going to work on this for the next shoeing. My barn owner said they had a really difficult time of it, but no one got hurt and the shoes are on. I'm going out to the barn tomorrow and hope the farrier was able to do a decent job of it. Dr. O. you are right about the delay between the reward and the desired behavior. I must be doing something wrong. It's just hard to hold a hoof, pick a hoof, and give treat at the same time! (Yep, I only have two hands!) This is especially difficult with the hind feet. (Arm too short?) I tried in the stall after she fell on crossties but she just walks off in a circle when she's had enough and I have to follow her around like a MORON! Needless to say, this is my first green/young horse and thank goodness so far the hoofs are the only real problem. She even gets nervous when I try to put hoof dressing on her coronary bands! Thanks again and have a Happy Thanksgiving! I'll be in touch with an update and will check out that stabilizer right now! Bonny & Buffy |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Nov 29, 2002 - 7:16 am: The reward system here definately is a 2 person job. If you are doing both you cannot reward the horses until after he has done exactly what you do not want: put the foot down. For mnore on the stabalizer, run a search we have discussed it in other posts.DrO |
Member: Mwebster |
Posted on Friday, Nov 29, 2002 - 8:54 am: A fried recently lent me a great video called Pro-Active Problem Solving by Chris Irwin, and there's a section on getting the horse to stand quietly for attention to its feet. Maybe your library or a friend will have it. |
Member: Chrism |
Posted on Monday, Dec 2, 2002 - 12:22 pm: Be sure to also rummage around for information on clicker training.Once the horse is sensitized to click = treat, you can "reward" by marking the desired behavior very accurately with a click and then treat after you let go of the hoof and stand up. Horses end up working for the click, which is a very distinctive noise. I use a click I can make with my mouth, where I pull my tongue down off the roof of my mouth to make a distinctive sound I normally don't use around horses. I think an African bush tribe talks via clicking - ever see that old classic, "The Gods Must be Crazy" ? It is the story of a member of this tribe who tries to return a soda bottle that is DrOpped out of an airplane to the gods as it is bad luck. Sorry for the aside, ;O) |
Member: Nisquy |
Posted on Monday, Dec 2, 2002 - 10:55 pm: Thanks Dr. O, Melissa and Chris for your suggestions. I have ordered the Stableizer and will now see if I can find the video Melissa suggested.I put my Australian Shepherd in obedience classes when I first got her, and some of the people in one of my classes were using something they called a "clicker." I'm wondering if this is the same thing? Every time someone used it, my dog spooked! Again, thanks, and I'll keep you posted. Bonny |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 3, 2002 - 6:23 am: Hello All,Run a search on clicker training Bonny, you will find other discussions describing it. The movie was a hoot, Chris. DrO |
Member: Megster |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 9, 2003 - 1:50 pm: Hi Bonnie. My mare was very awkward when I first bought her and would both refuse to pick her feet up and when she finally did she would snatch them away immediately. She was terrible for the farrier too, leaping about off all fours when he tried to hammer the nails in. I dont get the impression that my mare has as nervous a disposition as yours but the way I dealt with my mares problem was to keep repeating the same thing over and over. I would approach her, lift her foot, then once she held it for a few seconds quietly I would let it go and walk away. For the few month or so I was lifting her feet up every five minutes or so every time I was working around her. It enabled her to view it as something routine and normal rather than being a big deal to get worked up about. I also found some loud 'good girl' noises helped significantly. When she does something really nicely, I say the words 'good girl' quite loudly and then as I release the foot I give her a small treat - usually sugar free mints. Not everyone agrees with food treats as reward but for my horse who is very food oriented and also intelligent, this works really effectively. You also don't need ten pairs of hands as they associate the words with doing something well and know that something nice will follow. She's now better with the farrier as long as he's calm with her - if he starts to get wound up she just gets worse and worse. They are now starting to understand each other! Incidentally Bach Flower Remedies, you should be able to purchase from the supermarket or local health shop, along with things like lavender oil. I've heard good things about it but I guess you would have to try it. Kelly Mark's book 'perfect manners' is also excellent. I have found that when carrying out groundwork excercises, at the point you know your horse is submissive and really listening to you, if you incorporate things like lifting a foot, at intervals, this can have a really positive effect. Sarah |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 2:09 am: Hi BonnyI think it was probably my post that you read about sedating horses which are very difficult to shoe. Obviously it is better to be able to train them into the ways of righteousness but I think with a 7 yo your chances may be small if the behaviour is well established. At the end of the day, you can't work her without shoes so you probably have to consider the option of sedation - discuss with your farrier and/or vet (I am not sure what the "rules" on Dormosedan injections are in the US). I have an 8 yo mare who is fine to pick up hooves, shoe in front etc. but very very difficult to nail behind. She also stands as though butter wouldn't melt in her mouth and then gives the farrier an unexpected lash. As a result probably about 50% of the time we sedate her with Dormosedan when she has to be shod for safety reasons. Sometimes if she's calm and doesn't seem at all bothered when the front ones are done, we do her without but it takes 3 people - one to hold her, one to shoe and one to hand the farrier tools so that everything can be done with minimum movement and fuss. She is getting better but the conditions have to be right (calm, no interruptions, blacksmith in right mood). I am planning to try her on a whole tube of Sedalin (ACP gel) the next time as this is cheaper and doesn't involve an IV injection. However some horses get worse on Sedalin according to my farrier because I think maybe it affects their balance slightly (Dr O do you have any comment on that?). Dormosedan is fine from the balance point of view but sometimes they lean on the farrier which with a horse this mare's size is not funny... I don't know how she got like this but I probably should have been suspicious given that the shoes were so old they were nearly buried in her feet when I got her (from a dealer). She's a good hunter so I put up with the extra cost. However I never sleep the night before shoeing because I'm worrying she could do damage to the farrier... I am very lucky that this particular guy, who is known to be good with difficult horses, is prepared to persevere with her. All the best Imogen |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 5:49 am: Imogen what is in the Sedalin and what is its concentration and recommended dosage. Is ACP shorthand for acepromazine?DrO |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 6:29 am: It works well if you work the hind legs with the head of the horse in a corner of the stall and the side you are not working on against a wall. It doesn't have to be pressed in the corner or against the wall, of course. Horses use walls for psycological support, they don't have to lean against them. That usually also solves the walking away attitude.I use to work the horse's legs only in soft bedded areas. In that case, if it plays falling, I can "safely" let it fall. For difficult legs, I prefer tying off. Fold and strap down for the front, half hitch to the tail for the hind. A quick release knot is mandatory, in case the horse gets really wound up. But you don't release it every time the horse is about to fall, or you teach it that it is not allowed to put the leg straight down, but it can put it down over there (usually where you stand) For extremely difficult and nervous horses, and if you can find a suicidal farrier, sometimes working with NO restriction at all does the trick. We have a mare that brakes cross-ties for fun, will rear, jump around, bite, kick and all if you attempt to touch a leg when someone is holding the halter, but will stand patiently and willingly when free and unrestricted, for as long as you need, and even be interested in the procedure. For many horses, twisting the tail slightly and tying it to a neckstrap seems to improve their three-leg balance and give them confidence. Go figure... (There is an old story, that if you twist the tail and hold it in your hand while mounted, the animal can no way buck. It definitely works with donkeys, haven't tried it on a horse) |
Member: Erika |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 9:46 am: I had a horse who was terrible to shoe. We tried everything--twitch, ear twist, war bridle, tying foot up, etc. He just got to the point where if he saw the farrier he was miserably nervous! Luckily, fate brought us to a new farrier. He told me to give the horse a little bute the night before and that morning. Some horses have sensitive feet, I guess. Then I withheld his feed until the farrier came. Every time the farrier had a hoof in his hand, I held the feed bucket under the horse's nose. Took it away between times (he ate a lot that day!). Gradually the horse got better and better. We always made sure he had something to munch--later we switched to hay. After a while he didn't use the bute, and I had a nice, easy horse to shoe!My horse was years into his bad behavior when we tried this and it still worked. I think it helped to start over with a nice patient farrier. |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 2:23 am: Dr O, ACP is acepromazine. I'm rushing now but I'll find the tube and post the amount/dose tonight. Erika's bute suggestion sounds like something I will try too.All the best Imogen |
Member: Nisquy |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 8:18 am: Hi. I am the original poster on this disussion, and noticed some input recently. I thought I would update you all and thank you again for your suggestions.It has been just over a year since I got Buffy, and we are finally (as of the last 2 shoeings) to the point where she can be shod without the vet coming out to tranquilize her (Dormosedan and something else, can't remember what). I initially bought the Stableizer, but was afraid to us it! It's in my tack box. I found using rewards (treats as well as praise) helped a lot in just getting her to pick up her feet (especially the hind) for me. I also had the cooperation of my trainer and barn manager where we were all last year in picking up her feet every time they either rode her (trainer) or brought her in/out from turnout (barn manager). We found she was much better in a small area where she couldn't move around so much, so in her stall (with a bowl-full of soaked alfalfa cubes), or in the small wash stall worked best. We started slowly with her hind feet and would count to 10 while the feet were up and then worked our way up from there. (Initially we could only count to maybe 2 or 3!) As for shoeings, I opted to go with having my vet come out for every shoeing to tranquilize her, and initially he would give her enough so she was fairly "out of it." He then began weaning her off the drugs, until we got to the point where he felt she would stand without it. He was there to give her Fall shots on that day as well, and waited with us to make sure the job got done without incident. It did! I found that if she is ridden first, she is much more cooperative. Also, a gentle, quiet approach worked best with her - no forcing, yelling, or any sort of strong restraint, as this would make her more nervous. The quieter we were with her, the better she was in her response. Imogen, good luck with your mare! I think you are absolutely right about the "minimum of fuss" being a key. Bonny and Buffy |
New Member: Reeves |
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 1:29 pm: Bonny - were did you buy the stabalizer? I have looked all over the net and cannot find a source. Thanks. |
Member: Nisquy |
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 7:13 pm: Hi Terry. I don't remember where I got it, but in fact I never used it and it's still in the box! If you want it, I'd sell it to you cheap! You can email me privately if you like at buffyblueny@aol.com |