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Discussion on Antsy to be released | |
Author | Message |
Member: Aeowen |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2003 - 3:43 pm: Hi all,I'm working at a stable with 25 or so horses, but one in particular has my attention. When we take her to the field she is quite strong and requires a chain over her nose most of the time. The trouble comes when you try to release her - whether you take her halter off, or just unhook the chain and slide it over her nose, the minute she feels you even attempt to do that she tries to back, rear and run away. I have made attempts to hold her by the halter while I am doing this, relax her by scratching her neck until she lowers her head etc. but even with all of that, the minute she feels that chain slide she's "outta there". I did have luck one day when I just had a lead clipped to her chin, because she couldn't tell when she was released. Unfortunately, some days she's just too strong for that treatment. So, I was thinking of two options and wanted to know what you all thought. My first option is to try a treat to get her to stick around. I'm not sure this option will work with her because she seems truly interested in "getting away" and I am not the only person handling her and do not wish to see her get dependant on treats or nippy. My second option, and this one is just a theory or idea, is to lead her out with the chain over her nose, and then clip a second lead onto her chin prior to releasing the first chain. I'm quite sure she'll try to back and run away, but I was hoping that I could hold her and thus, remove the "reward" for getting away. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, so any comments on it are welcome. Any further ideas are more than welcome. Other than this one issue, she seems to be relatively well mannered on the ground. I have noticed several horses at this stable with this particular issue, so I'm assuming it's something that most of the other workers have been inadvertantly rewarding. I'm hoping that I can come up with something that is makes a relatively big impression the first time so that the other workers can reinforce it relatively easily. I wish I had more time to work with this filly on ground manners, but alas, she's not mine, and not "in training" with me. Thanks |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2003 - 6:16 pm: I put two lines over the nose and really give as good jerk if he pulls away. This usually fixes the problem in just a few days for these guys but will need occasional reinforcement.DrO |
Member: Hwood |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2003 - 6:29 pm: Hi, Bevin,As you know, this is not an uncommon problem, especially at places where the horses are moved in and out in a hurried manner a.m. and p.m. . . . and it shows rudeness on the part of the horse and lack of good training on the part of the handlers . . . First of all, please don't put your hand inside the halter of a horse . . . for your own safety . . . especially if the horse is known to rear and fly back . . . I have a busted knuckle on my right hand due to a similar instance from a horse that would rear before going in and out of gates . . . and I was wearing mittens over leather gloves when it happened . . . as a result, whenever I type, I have to go back and delete all the "k's." (It's a terrible inconvenience!) Take the following suggestions with a grain of salt . . . . you may already be imploying some of these techniques, so there may be other things to try . . . . but as you enter the paddock/pasture and close the gate behind you, make sure the horse turns toward the fence before removing the halter. . . . and she must wait until you see her being calm and focused on you . . . if she is ansty and on edge, then put her to work with some leading exercises near the gate and then stop her and try again . . . She shouldn't be released until she is stopped in her mind . . . you can tell when her attention is on you . . . then her reward is to be unhaltered . . . and she should stand with you until you tell her it is "okay" to go, or until you turn away from her . . . It may help to have the leadline over her poll in addition to the halter, to make it a two-step procedure . . . So she realizes that the halter coming off isn't the last thing, and that she still has to wait for you to be done with her before she has permission to go be a horse with her friends. . . . I know it's easy for me to give directions from here, and I know that you aren't the trainer . . . and I assume that you aren't the only person handling the horse . . . and that it all comes down to time and consistency . . . :-) So . . . . . a carrot might be the easiest thing . . . but she is always going to be a rude horse unless someone takes the time with her and with her owner/handlers. Holly |
Member: Aeowen |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 6:52 am: Thanks Dr. O and Holly!I do realize that this is a common issue - this mare just seems to be worse than the rest. Usually as you said Holly, if I can get their attention facing the gate it's just a matter of time before I can get them to stop pulling and start waiting to be released. This mare...well, she's just too darned smart for her own good IMO. Dr O - do you hook the chains on opposite sides? Or on the same side? I'm sorry to hear about your hand Holly - and the k's would be a terrible inconvenience indeed! I did try throwing the end of the lead up and around her neck, and once around her poll, however, she pulled right away from those (when she does this, it's frequently coupled with a pulling rear - she'll sit right down - and sometimes it's a wheel and a kick). I don't like the pulling rear at all, and was thinking if it persisted of driving her forward with a lunge whip when it happens. Undoubtedly she's feeling trapped and pressured so she freaks and tries to get away. I know this mare doesn't mean any harm - she's young and bright and spirited. And other than this issue, she's quite responsive to the hand etc. I am not indeed the only one to be handling her - in fact, I am one of maybe 4-5 (last count). |
Member: Santucci |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 10:52 am: Bevin, we've had the same problem with my daughter's mare. It's become so bad that the barn owner can't handle her to turn her out at all. For me, on the other hand, the mare is an angel. I've been going out to the stable every morning before work - what a pain! - and have been very successful in getting the mare absolutely perfect for me. When working with the mare on the ground, in her stall or leading her around not on the way to turn out, I've taught her to put her head down by gentle pressure downward on the lead rope. She's rewarded by a few treats. She picked that up very quickly and is now to the point that she holds her head down to have her bridle path clipped (with scissors - need to work on the clipper still!).When I turn the mare out, on the way from her stall I stop her several times and make her stand (sometimes successful, sometimes not) but I always make her put her head down. Then when I get to the turn out, I close the gate, have the mare facing the gate, and tell her "head down." She lowers her head until I remove the halter, then she knows to wait while I get treats out of my pocket. I've had the barn owner try this technique the last couple of days, and while the mare still pulls away as soon as the halter comes off, she's better than she had been. Hopefully with some repetition she'll continue to improve. I think this all started because the barn owner is very much "do it and get it over with" with all the horses, I think when she first started having a problem with the mare she tried to correct it with punishment and it backfired. Good luck in getting the problem resolved. |
Member: Kimlking |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 6:12 pm: Bevin-I'll bet you are right about this behavior starting, or worsening, with the mare being punished in association with being released. Or possibly she was coincidentally frightened by something else at the gate, half in/half out of her halter. At any rate, you say she seems to feel afraid and trapped, and it cetainly sounds like pretty extreme behavior, way beyond merely frisky and sassy. Holly's advice sounds excellent. I would maybe focus also on working to soothe and reassure her. When she feels safe and secure with you at the gate, it won't matter if you have a halter on her or not. (My gelding not only does not run or even walk off, he likes to hang around, and even tries to go with me when I leave his pen; all my horses have always been like this, or become this way after they have been mine for a while.) You probably don't need much advice on how to do this, but you might want to try a couple of things that I habitually do with horses to win their trust, that imitate mother-horse or friend-horse behavior.When you get close to the part of the releasing routine where she usually starts acting up, instead of going to the next step, just start scratching her casually at the base of her mane/top of her withers. This mimics the friendly nibbling that horse buddies do on each other, and is very reassuring. And then, when she's standling quietly, drape your arm (say, your right arm, because you're still holding on to the lead rope with your left) over her withers and down her opposite shoulder, and just hang out with her for a few minutes like that. Maybe don't even touch her at first, if you think she might feel trapped. You're trying to imitate what mares do with their necks and heads, sheltering and protecting their foals. It is also a very comforting gesture. Put the end of the lead rope over her poll, and just keep hanging out, scratching and "hugging." Take a tiny step toward unfastening the halter, but when she starts to get antsy, quit and go back to hanging out like a couple of snoozy horses with no program at all. Et cetera, until she doesn't really care what you are doing with her halter. Also, try releasing her away from the gate, out in the field somewhere, just to break the pattern of stimuli that always precedes her unwanted habit. When she realizes that it's safe to stick around the human in charge, you can release her anywhere you want and she won't fight to rush off; she might not even leave you at all, and may even follow you back to the gate. Good luck. That mare is lucky to have you as one of her handlers. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 6:57 pm: Fear does not seem to be the reason I see this behavior. The horses that I see do this appear to not be able to contain the natural exuberence they have when being released: they are excited, not paying attention, want to leave quickly for that first fun romp around the pasture.The leads are attached to the same side to make it easy for you to release. You could try ond nose chain and one simple lead, release the simple lead first. Anything that breaks up cycle. The chain set up I use is explained at » Training Horses » Training the Mind of Your Horse » Halter Training and Tieing Horses. DrO |
Member: Kimlking |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2003 - 7:23 pm: Dr. O--I'm sure you have a lot more experience than I do, and a whole ton more with horses in competition-condition that live in stalls, so I'm not disagreeing with you. In my own admittedly limited experience, though, setting back and rearing up has never been playful, but always a part of serious resistance. And Bevin sees the mare as "undoubtedly...feeling trapped and pressured," and believes there is a history of her being mistreated during the process of being turned out. I really wasn't trying to contradict your advice. I have no doubt that being caught across the nose by a second chain that she is unaware of will bring her up short right now. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2003 - 3:57 am: Hello Kim,I have horses that rear while playing with each other and while playing in the pasture, this is a daily occurence. But that is not the point here. I think the horses are misbehaving at a critical time: the time just as they are released. Not only will the second chain bring her up short but should train her not to bolt when released Kim. Bevin says the horse is trapped and pressured and when you think about it that is what leading a horse is about: the horse is tethered to the handler and must move with the handler. The question is how does the horse behave: do they stand and give appropriately or do they not. We have a horse that likes to do this and about 2 days of double lead lines once a year reminds him to not bolt. We also get in lots of outside horses and you run across this behavior commonly. Kim this is very dangerous behavior to both the handler and the horse that needs to be addressed before someone is hurt. DrO |
Member: Aeowen |
Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2003 - 12:39 pm: Thanks everyone!Seems that every horse in the whole stable had this issue today...EXCEPT the mare. HA! Isn't that always the case? Anyhow, it's pretty clear that they have all been allowed to misbehave. I had to fool a couple of them by unbuckling the halter instead of pulling it over their ears this morning, because they were just being so bad (not all of them get turned out in halters). So, it's the double chains for me. Looks like it may be a long morning tomorrow, but at least not as bad as it was this morning (I had to work with one gelding for about 20 minutes before I could actually get to the halter). I'm still not quite sure what I'm going to do with the ones that get their halters removed, but unbuckling seemed to be a better option than slipping them off. I also know that many of these horses are "used" to being led with only a leaDrOpe around their neck (to the pasture), which I don't feel comfortable with (too little control for horses "in my charge") so I guess it's up to me to fix the situation. Anyhow, thanks again everyone - I'll let you know how quickly the situation improves (*crossing fingers and hoping that it does*) |