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Discussion on Can not get near her. | |
Author | Message |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 9:15 am: I got a 18month filly 3 weeks ago.I KNOW THE FORMER owner had problems also but I though I could overcome it with love and care.However she does not respond to it.Ihave a lead rope on her in the stall if I get her she lets me pet her .I have had horses before that had nerves that were bad but not as bad as this one .Bob |
Member: Tlcstabl |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 9:59 am: She sounds like a good candidate for some round pen training like John Lyons does. I don't necessarily like one trainer over another, but I think his methods for round pen training are pretty appropriate, very basic, and build trust. If you don't have any of his tapes, you can probably rent one from your local tack store. It sounds like this girl was never socialized, is fearful and/or just doesn't know if she can trust you. It's may not be as difficult to overcome as you may think, but it will take a bit of time invested on your part.Do you know more of her history? Was she just not socialized, or was she given a reason not to trust people? I know of someone else who did not have a lot of luck in getting her horse to trust her -- the round pen worked while they were in the round pen, but the field and the stall were another matter. So what she did, was sit on a bale of hay in the horse's stall with her and kept her grain bucket between her legs so if the horse wanted to eat the grain, SHE had to initiate contact. Her success took 3 days to overcome the horses fears/trust issue but it did work. She would do several small sessions in a day until the horse would come for the grain. Then it got so the filly was looking forward to her visits because she was being "rewarded". Whatever you try, good luck! |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 10:27 am: Thanks Sherry ,I do not have a round pen were I keep her and we had a lot of rain so I CAN NOT get out side to work her.I do spend time with her in her stall some days shes better then the next day not.I will try the grain bucket idea .BOB. |
Member: Goolsby |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 10:38 am: BobHang in there. I "adopted" a rescue colt two weeks ago. He is suspose to be 6mo. but I dont believe he is over 4mo. He had been from auction to auction until he was so sick with shipping fever and the cuts on his legs had become so infected that he was going to the meat buyers. A rescue group saved him and when I got him a month later I coulnt even get close without him acting like he was going to jump out of his skin. I have been doing what Sherry's friend did. Just sitting in the stall while hes eats and talking softly to him. I took small steps to get to touch him. Now I can brush him and hold his halter and pet everything but his lower legs. He even meets me at the gate at feeding time. We still have a long way to go. Give it time and patience and go slowly and Im sure you will earn her trust. Good luck. Colleen |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 3:01 pm: Hi Bob-We once adopted an old mother burro and her young filly from BLM. Mother was ancient and missing part of an ear. She was REALLY wild. If you went near her, she would lower her head, paw the ground, and start making noises like a freight train getting ready to roll. No matter what your mind told you to do, your legs would start running when she did that.I started out by sitting in front of her pen reading a book. Finally, she would get curious and get closer and closer until would sniff me. I let her sniff as much as she wanted. Then, I brought a feed pan of sweet feed and sat with it in front of me, much like Sherry did. She'd snort and blow and huff, but finally would grab a bite. Eventualy, she'd stand there and eat. This slow process kept up until I could touch her, eventually groom her (no halter yet) and pet her. It took months, but finally I was able to even get a halter on her and lead her. Your filly will be easier (I think) but it will take lots of patience and time. Don't push her, she'll come around. The talking and singing seem to help, too. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Friday, Nov 21, 2003 - 6:52 pm: Bob 3 weeks is a short time. It helps to understand that you are trying to achieve two main goals. First you are trying to achieve a uncontested dominant herd role while second, making yourself enjoyable to be around. It can be a hard line to walk but small mistakes are allowed. It is true that a round pen is one of the best ways to establish this role but grooming while tied and bringing small amounts of food frequently and not feeding until the horse walks up to you are useful techniques also.DrO |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Saturday, Nov 22, 2003 - 2:35 pm: DrO.THANK YOU ,your input is well taken.Well try the techniques that you all recommend.Thanks to all.Will keep you informed.BOB. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2003 - 9:24 pm: Well guess what, she got a new vice turning her rear end and ears back when you go in her stall.Not letting anyone near her.A good smack on her butt may cure it? Whats your thinking? Bob. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Nov 27, 2003 - 11:13 pm: Before you resort to smacking her, which will make her sure she is right to avoid you, try this. Take a long lunge whip into the stall with you. When she turns her butt to you, begin to tap her repeatedly on the hip. Stay out of her range if she has a tendancy to kick. The instant she starts to move her butt away and her head toward you stop tapping and praise her. You must reward the smallest attempt to face you by stopping the tapping immediately. She will learn that turning her butt to you results in the annoyance of the tapping and turning her head to you releases her from that annoyance. You don't need to hurt or scare her, just annoy her with the tapping. Don't use the lash if the whip has one--tie is up. Your timing must be very good--reward any try and do it very quickly. You will find that this release or reward timing is very important in everything you do with your horse. "When you release is what you teach." You can build on this. At first just get her to move her butt away from you, then work toward getting her to always face you when you enter the stall. I know many people don't agree with feeding treats, but a food reward when she's done what you're asking for will establish a pattern much quicker when combined with the release. You could give her a few kernals of corn in a feed pan, or a small amount of grain or sweet feed, or if you're comfortable with hand feeding, a carrot or apple slice. Just look for tiny improvements and reward with release and praise and if you choose, a treat. |
Member: Tlcstabl |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 8:00 am: Sounds like this girl is going to pull all the stops Bob! We have also used the technique that Julie mentioned but usually for trailer training and it makes teaching to load much easier -- tap, tap, tap (sometimes for 15 - 20 minutes) before you get a response, but they will get tired of it and move away from it.But I would have another suggestion -- a VERY loud voice! Tell her that she is being bad and how "displeased" you are with her and then walk away. I have had to use this technique with alpha mares that come into my barn and voila! -- they settle down and accept me as the alpha. It may take a time or two, but it should improve her attitude toward you. Do this before entering her stall or even as you enter the barn if you see that she is taking this posture so she has your undivided attention and knows you will not take any of the bull she is trying to pull on you. Good luck! |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 11:57 am: I also reccomend the tapping and loud voice. A lot of horse behavior is posturing, and you have to "out posture" and not back down to the filly, but at the same time reward her and "back down" the instant she makes a submissive move, or slightest move towards what you want. Also, it is important that like with a young child, you catch her being good and reward her. It will take time, but you'll see results. |
Member: Jerre |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Bob,Is her primary emotion fear or anger/aggression? Dominance strategies that will work with an aggressive horse may just make a frightened horse more convinced that she has a reason to be afraid. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 1:54 pm: To all, I will try the loud voice and tapping her butt thanks .Jerre I am not sure, shes not aggressive but sometimes seems mad and sometimes frightened.She is aggressive with the horse next to her reares and kicks at him at feeding time and at other times.too.Bob. |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 2:30 pm: I have only one disaggreement wih the suggestions above I strongly believe food rewards is a huge mistake. I strongly encourage rewards be gentle smooth rubbing type pet approx. 4 " in front of withers in an area about 6 inches in diameter where the mother nuzzles foals and about where you see horses scratching each other only pet just below mane. this with a soft happy voice and good girl or boy at same time.Food rewards are never! a good idea! AGAIN JUST MY OPINION |
Member: Jerre |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 2:37 pm: Bob, From your description it sounds like she's a bit spoiled and a lot alpha mare. This is the kind of horse that can tempt a person to smack -- which does sometimes work, but is more likely to get you sullen obediance than respect and trust. Try to keep your cool and not be angry -- concentrate on being persistent and fair and she'll begin to acknowledge that you're a leader she can trust. Rewarding tries by taking off the pressure and petting or speaking softly is really important -- build on the little steps and let us know what works for both of you. An alpha horse may appreciate you just stopping the pressure (tapping or whatever) and relaxing your own posture more than being touched at first. |
Member: Hwood |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 2:40 pm: Janette . . . I agree with you on that, 100% . . . when dealing with this behavior, I would be hesitant to have the horse look at me as a feeding machine . . . at meal times, the horse should expect food . . . but not during this particular training . . . |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 4:21 pm: By reward, I am refering to a shoulder scratching, soft words of praise, etc., not food. I personally don't use food as an award. However, when done with a lesson, on a ride while I'm eating my lunch, or just as a special treat I do feed carrots, apples, etc. out of hand. (I know some don't approve of feeding out of hand at anytime, but even my stallions are quite polite about it.)Considering her age, and what's been said about this filly, I suspect her actions are more out of fear and uncertainty, even her aggressivness towards the horses next to her. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 8:00 pm: Hi all,good advice thanks your all on the same track Jerre what is a alpha filly ? just beginning ,somefirst or what?Bob. |
Member: Jerre |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 8:09 pm: Alpha is the head horse, leader of the herd, boss mare. If she thinks she's alpha (Number One) it would mean she thinks she can be the boss of you, too!But if her behavior is from fear, then she's being defensive instead of aggressive. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Nov 28, 2003 - 8:22 pm: My ,gosh I think you may have hit it on the head.I will be letting out with other horses and will watch her.Bob |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 - 6:48 pm: You have to make her look at you when you enter the stall, to start with. Talk to her. Do not shout and do not repeat more than twice, she is not deaf. If she ignores you, annoy her slightly with a longeing whip so that she has to aknowledge your presence, ie to look at you. Use the whip with slight taps, as guidance rather than punishment, to gradually get her to turn her rear end away from you and stand still every time you enter the stall or otherwise approach her.If she starts running around, let her run as much as she wants, only defending your safe distance with the whip. When she stops, chase her around one or two more laps before YOU invite her to stop. When she does, thank her quietly with a little scratch on the withers, say "good girl" a couple of times and park her away for the day. She will soon realise that it is nonsense and very tiring to play this game everytime you just want to touch her. If the stall is not so roomy and you feel insecure of going into a "fight" in such a confined space, which is probably what your horse already knows you feel and takes advantage of it, take her outside on a longe line and follow the same procedure. Only be VERY gentle with the whip, especially indoors. You do not want to drive her to panic. Neither should you need to punish her, unless she attacks you. |
Member: Apcohrs |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 - 9:20 pm: Do I understand correctly - that this 18 month old has been completely stall bound for 3 weeks?? |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 1:26 am: Good gosh! I hope not!! |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 10:57 am: Thanks for the good advise to all .She has been out but not with other horses till now ,seems fine so far .Still a little nuts at times.Guess I will see how it goes with all your input. Bob. |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 11:13 am: Good! Ann had me worried there for a minute! I think you'll do fine with your filly. Keep an eye on her (know you will) with the other horses as she's so young. Let us all know how you two do together. |
Member: Apcohrs |
Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 2:47 pm: Whew! glad I misunderstood! |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Hi all ,just a update on my filly .WOW what a change in the last few days, used all your advise useing the tapping and easy words, petting etc.Not great but a real good improvement. Thanks to all that wrote me. Will keep you up to date later.Bob. |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 12:20 pm: So glad you two are getting along better! It won't be long before you're great friends. I'll look forward to your updates. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 4:18 pm: Beautiful work, Bob!You have to understand now that she doesn't really know yet. She started reacting corectly, but it takes some repetition before you demand a correct response EVERY time. Go easy. It is very confusing for horses when they first start trying to understand people. Look at her face, learn to read it. Give her a break when she is confused. And remember, the whip is just backup for your voice. Just holding it or pointing it at her should suffice now. And always keep in mind that she is very young. She does not have the mental maturity for difficult or extended lessons. It seems that you two have just started a relationship based on mutual understanding, the beginning of all things beautiful with a horse. Good luck to you both. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 4, 2003 - 8:51 pm: Great news Bob! Release of pressure and reward are the foundation for teaching and training and as you get more experienced you will see even more improvement. Timing the release and reward will continue to be important. You've made a great start. Remember, expect "baby steps". They will add up to giant steps over time! |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 7, 2003 - 10:07 pm: HI all , Just a update on the 18 mo. filly.I guess I will confess that I used you all to see how you know about training young horses.I have been working with horses for 60 years .But your input was very good .Hell I AM 73 YEARS OLD .Love to all .God bless. Bob. |
Member: Jerre |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 1:26 am: Tsk, tsk, tsk Bob, you old trickster you! It's not nice to trick your HA friends, now, is it? I guess you'll just have to help all of us when we have REAL problems, won't you? |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 5:52 am: Tricky old man! And the "filly" ? An 18yo dressage champion ? |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 11:07 am: Hi I will say one thing ,your all good sports thanks ,As I always said horse people are one of a kind, that is the very best.The tricky old man. |
Member: Lala |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 2:36 pm: So Mr. Trickster,Time for payback from the benefit of getting all that wonderful advice. Tell us the real scoop on the 18 month old filly. (Does she even exist?) Did you actually try any of the suggestions? What did or did not work? What suggestions of your own would you have for HA members who are faced with similar situations? Thanks for creating an entertaining twice over thread -- first time in just hearing what people had to say and second time reading it knowing you were playing dumb! Fiona Who has a 21 month old gelding and a 33 month old gelding (both with utterly different temperaments) so loves to read anything about socializing young horses and walking that fine line of alpha and enjoyable to be around! |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 6:31 pm: Dear Fiona, yes there it a real filly . She is coming along fine .Did I use any advise ? Well there was not much I did not try just to see if it worked and some did petty good.It sure was fun any way.Bob. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Well Bob, we aren't all good sports. I'm not feeling as magnanimous as the previous posters. People give generously and sincerely of their time and knowledge on this board. Not only do I feel you "amused" yourself while we all took your post seriously, I doubt any of us signed up to have someone "judge" whether we have any "horse sense" in the opinion of someone who now claims to have been working with horses for 60 years. I'm sorry, but you have no credibility with me, so I assume that claim may also be false. I just hope you're not also in some chat room posing as a 16 year old boy! I will certainly take your posts with the proverbial "grain of salt" from now on. Julie |
Member: Penner |
Posted on Monday, Dec 8, 2003 - 10:59 pm: Oooh! Touché Julie, kind of what I was thinking...But, its just as well everyone was still magnanimous after he revealed he did this. Maybe he has got a lot of time on his hands, who knows? Funny, if you look at his date of registration on this site, it is 5/2001 with 44 posts. Why pull this now??? |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 9, 2003 - 7:22 am: Come on now, all,A 73 year old man that cares the least for other people's opinion ? Especially to the extend that he would pull such a trick ? You must be joking... |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 9, 2003 - 8:16 am: As Julie states, people are generous here to give help. Robert has "used" this generosity deceitfully. I hope he has better instincts when working with his horses than he does when working with people.DrO |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 9, 2003 - 8:50 am: I am truely sorry for useing any of you, I did not think or use my head . Please forgive me it will never happen again,Thank you all .Bob. |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 11:15 am: Personally I think you should be banned from the site! |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 11:36 am: Hello all,Just my two cents worth; again. I think call Bob’s post deceitful is a little harsh. I went back and looked at the original post. It appears to me Bob used a fictitious story to generate discussion of a fairly common problem. In our small barn here I often see people misreading, or ignoring, disrespectful horses. “Well, maybe my horse is just confused about where the halter goes when he turns his butt to me when I enter his stall.” Yeah, right. It may not be a big problem today, but compounded these people will have trouble down the road. Even here I see posts fairly often with the thyme we see in Bob’s post, “I thought I could overcome this with love and care.” Compassion and love is important in horsemanship, but you’ll never love a horse into a trailer, or into respecting your space, or seeing two eyes and ears rather than one tail when you enter the stall. Anyhow, the discussion was good, and right on the mark. Even if it began with a tall tail. Hopefully someone watching from the sidelines learned something they can use. Alden |
Member: Terrilyn |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 12:37 pm: Thoughtfully said, Alden.One of the distinguising traits of this site is the level of civility among its members. I have followed discussions on other horse community websites that were nasty, nasty, nasty! I've always been so impressed with the way people show their manners and not their rear ends on this site. This was one of the most interesting threads in a long time. Peace on earth... |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Don't be too hard on ole Bob. Just wanting to know if advice is legitimate. Don't care much for his method, but intent is certainly clear.... I know we all have gotten bad advice from "so called" horse people we have dealt with. One thing I am sure of, Bob found out that this site and all you good people know your stuff and can be trusted. Lets give him another chance to benefit from all this. As you all know, just cause he's older don't mean he's through learning .. I know all my horses have been good teachers ... and I will continue to count on this site .... and maybe even Bob. |
Member: Goolsby |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 12:53 pm: I have to agree with Julie and Janette. I dont think deceitful is harsh at all. He admitted that he used us and was testing our knowledge. Although I agree the topic created a good discussion, BOB could have been honest and just ask what we would do in such a situation. I have always felt members of this group were very sincere and helpful. I think what BOB did undermindes the integrety of this group. |
Member: Lanna1 |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 3:23 pm: Well said Colleen,I just happened to be reading through all the posts and came up on the "situation" you guys are now dealing with. I agree with Colleen and back up DrO's comments: "As Julie states, people are generous here to give help. Robert has "used" this generosity deceitfully. I hope he has better instincts when working with his horses than he does when working with people." Precisely! With everything that happens in this day & age, especially with the internet scams that we're all aware of - we need to feel safe in our postings here. This goes against the proper ediquitte we all agreed to when we first signed on as members. I don't believe that anyone feels comfortable when they've been "tricked" into something - it leaves us with a sense of violation. There are better ways to approach these things, if all we are really looking for is a simple test in member knowledge. Simply read the past discussions and quite quickly you can become fairly familiar with how people are conducting themselves. Just my opinion, but I'd like to think this was a safe place to correspond! Lanna in BC |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 3:39 pm: Good point Lanna .... If you can't get a good feel by reviewing previous discussions, you probably don't know enough about horses to take advantage of all the valuable inormation posted anyway.... |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 4:25 pm: Hi all, just to try to clear things up .I did not mean that because I have been around horses for years that I know it all ,As I stated I used all that advise and it was great and I learned a lot.I worded used you to seek help not to see what you know . It was a dumb way I worded It.I sure made a mess out of this whole thing sorry.Bob |
Member: Sparky |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 4:57 pm: Bob - I think you have done the most damage to yourself. I hope you can learn from this and take away something positive. It will take time for the trust to come back and members to respond to your posts. I was a little shocked as I read thru all the posts when I came to your confession. I joined this group because I felt I was getting great opinions from a variety of sources. This proved that this group has a vast knowledge base. Don't worry you will have to make more than one mistake to have me write you off! We are all probably guilty at one time or another of starting something that snowballed that we wish we could turn back the clock. To the participants of this discussion may you all continue to offer your thoughts as they are much appreciated.Happy Holidays to Everyone and let's put this one to bed! Janet Schmidt |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 5:48 pm: I thought the apology sounded heartfelt.DrO |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 5:53 pm: Thank you Janet,I truely was a jerk .I enjoy this site and all the good advise from it. Happy Holidays to you also.Bob. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 10, 2003 - 9:38 pm: I'm willing to move on, although a little more cynical than I used to be, so I guess everyone learns something. |
Member: Penner |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 1:11 am: Hey Bob,Nobodys perfect, glad you saw the error of doing that (in that way - as a previous poster said, maybe next time consider phrasing it as a "What If" scenario). Best Wishes, & Happy Holidays! |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 2:19 am: Bob, it didn't bother me... I find most of the best advice I get regarding horses (apart from all the wonderful stuff on this website) is from people like you who have been around horses for a very long time. Please stick around and give us the benefit of your experience.Take care, all the best Imogen |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 8:18 am: Bob, I forgive you, Everyone makes mistakes. We are human. You do sound sorry. Keep postingKatrina |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 8:36 am: Bob I see you have been a member since 2001 why have we not benefited from your "working with horses for 60 years " prior to now?Or you the old school type that if the horse doesn't do what you want, you whip, or knock them in the head with a 2x4 type and thought we were all idiots? It seems to me that if you are being honest now that at some time since 2001 you would have had something useful to add to at least one thread. I am not getting the feeling you are being truthful now either. |
Member: Skye |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 9:03 am: How many of us haven't done or said something we shouldn't have--or used the wrong words?Bob has apologized and thanked everyone for their help. We really need to let this one go. |
Member: Terrilyn |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 10:07 am: I read Eleanor's short, concise, and perfectly worded comment and immediately thought, "She is a teacher." A quick check of the profile proved that to be correct! I agree completely. What good does it do to keep raking Bob over the coals? HA members seem to be very solution-oriented and tolerant. Let's forgive, forget, move on, and channel the energy of this discussion into another topic. Merry Christmas to all.... |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 10:15 am: I'm with you Terri ... many horses to train and questions to be answered ... I'm sure Bob got the message by now.. |
Member: Jjet |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 11, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Robert: Geez, you sound like a good guy to me...you owned up, said you were sorry, repeatedly, and it wasn't like you caused any catastrophe! You know, some people are very sensitive and don't seem to be able to allow for mistakes or miscommunications. But, there are many more who are more generous, especially on this site. Even the most critical have a lot to offer (I, myself, however, am perfect, naturally!). So don't take it to heart. Just remember that people often put in quite a bit of time in their responses (especially us slow typists) so they want to feel that it has been worth the trouble.Happy Horsekeeping! THE END (I hope) |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 13, 2003 - 7:19 pm: Hi all ,I am a little fearful of getting back on ,but heres goes.My paso filly ia at times very good and comes to me even when she out with other horses ,but its always at feeding time. THIS MORNING I went to feed her and pet her and tried to bit me . She still kicks at the horse next to her but of course there is a fence between them,this it at feeding time.She seems like a very unhappy horse.When shes with other horses she seems like a outcast in the field ,not a herd girl and not a alpha mare yet.As I said this is a new one on me . I am still useing the go easy way before buting the strong arm her . Whats your thinking? Bob.. |
Member: Bigk |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 7:02 pm: Hi bob:Just came upon your thread and I was very amused. You can't blame all the posters for being mad. But I sure had a good laugh. Happy Holidays. |
Member: Andrea1 |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 7:32 pm: Dear Bob,Surely after 60 years with horses you would have come across this problem before...No? Why don't you tell us what solutions you might use to teach this filly. All the best |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 8:18 pm: Well Andrea ,even after 60 years sometimes you run into a new problem , hope you have the time left ,I mean that, I do not know your age? anyway whatI have doing is going out to feed and going back durning the day and working with her.Just geting near her and getting her to let me pet & brush her, in her stall ,not always to nice takes time.I used the tapping to get her to face me ,great advice never used that. As far as sitting in the stall ,no I did not try that . After I somewhat got her confadence I took the lead rope off her as a reward ,however not in the field yet.That will come next if she keeps coming in when I call her . Yes I do use rewards sometimes depends on her reponds if good yes if not no,and loud bad girl and I leave.Thats all for now .Tbanks ,Bob. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 11:38 pm: This is tough Bob. She's wary of you, so you hate to reinforce that wariness, but on the other hand, agressive behavior like biting, kicking and striking can't be tolerated. My horses are pretty well ground broke, so if one of them tried to bite, I'd follow my instincts and smack them with whatever was handy anyplace I could reach except their head! I'd show them no mercy for about two seconds. Then I'd soothe them and let them know I'm going to let them live. However, with your filly, unless you have her under control at the time, she's probably just going to run off and not let you get close to her again! It usually only takes once if you're serious. I'm a little stumped though, because you're in a situation where you're trying to convince this filly that you're not a monster, but at the same time won't tolerate agressive behavior. I think it would be worth your while to borrow, rent or buy a video from Clinton Anderson or someone like him about round pen basics. You can do all of this on a lunge line if you don't have a round pen, but it's the theory you need to understand and use on her so she will come to percieve you without so much fear, but with respect. Good luck. This sounds like a tough situation. |
Member: Juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 14, 2003 - 11:54 pm: Oh, another thought. Since you don't have a round pen, some of the same principals can be established with a halter and a lead rope. Start by making her move her hindquarters away from you by pushing on her hip with you fingers or a stiff short whip without a lash. Use a small amount of pressure at first, increasing until she moves. Reward the slightest move by releasing the pressure immediately. Keep repeating this until she will move her hind quarters away with a light touch or even a point. Now do the same thing on the other side. Next get her to move her front end away from you the same way. Both sides. Use the lightest pressure and increase until she moves. Reward immediately by releasing pressure and praising her. At first you may have to reward a lean in the right direction or just a slight lifting of the hoof. Ask for a little more each time. The idea is that when you want her to move, she has to move. You can control the part of her body and the direction of movement. Watch horses together--the alpha horse indicates to the others when she wants them to move and they do it. Your filly needs to see you as the alpha horse. In the pasture, they learn to move when they get "that look" from the alpha horse. She should learn to move when you point your finger at her hip or her shoulder. You can even make her sidepass--move her hip, move her shoulder, move her hip, move her shoulder, etc. That's down the road a bit, but will still help her learn that you are her leader. She has much to learn, but being able to control all her body parts will be a good start. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 8:50 am: Thanks Julie ,I will try the lead rope idea and start her on that .I was waiting for them to get the round pen up,But I think your way will work for a start. By the way I did not let her get away with the trying to bit,she got a go smack. Thanks again .Bob. |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 10:59 am: BRAVO ANDREA!Anyone that has trained 10 horses has come across this problem most likely at least once. 60 years definitely would have unless someone else was doing the work, and no contact or supervision was ever done of trainer. There is something very wrong here in this whole thread. |
Member: Lanna1 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 4:46 pm: Hi all,I have to admit that I will be very guarded on anything that Bob writes as well - something doesn't feel right with me either. |
Member: Mewzet |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 5:02 pm: I have read this whole thread and feel that it has now strayed too far off the path. Bob had a legitimate question. His question was answered. Can we move on and not decide whether or not we should trust anything he has to say? I have benefitted from the info provded in this thread. So have many others. Let's move on and put the knives away. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 6:06 pm: Hello ,TO all ,this well be my last post about my filly.Thanks to all who helped . Your input was great. I never said I new it all ,we learn every day something new,Take care .Bob. |
Member: Skye |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 7:54 pm: So Bob will no longer seek advice about a filly that could use some expert care! So many people offered such wonderful advice, Bob has apologized, and he's looking for NEW ways to care for horses.There is everything right with the desire of an experienced horseperson looking for new ways of working with his animals. Why so many people are so angry and even feeling "unsafe" is a mystery. For me, I'd like to deal with anyone looking for the best for his filly--and with someone who can apologize for a mistake and try to move on. I just don't get it and wish everyone could think of the filly if not of Bob. |
Member: Andrea1 |
Posted on Monday, Dec 15, 2003 - 8:37 pm: Hi Eleanor,I totally agree with your comments. However, I was just a little perplexed that someone with that amount of experience might not have seen some of this behaviour in the past. I was really serious in finding out what solutions Bob might use to work with such a horse. I know from previous posts he has trained different breeds, and started many horses. I have seen the behaviour, and actually my father owned a horse like this, but thank God, I was at college and didn't have to deal with it much. AND I apologize to Bob, since I know my post was short, but it was sincere. I will try to word it better next time. Please let us know if any of the members ideas work or if you come up with any. I truely love this sight, and I would hate to see anyone be afraid to post, or answer a post. Let's just move on and hope Bob and other members keep posting. Best wishes |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 6:55 am: Bob, you are describing a filly with no social education whatsoever.This is probably the reason she stays (or is kept by other horses) at a distance from the herd. You shouldn't, normally, start teaching a horse or any other animal manners at feeding time. Many animals (and people alike) do not like to be disturbed when having their meal. With a horse like this, first you let her work her manners out with the rest of the herd. Not in feeding time, that is, and only if there is not excess aggression. Once her position there is established, you introduce yourself and your demands, though she'll have observed pretty much by then from you handling other horses. You introduce table manners last, and IMO only when everything else is clear. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 7:05 am: Oh, and leaving a lead rope on a wandering horse, even in the stall, is bad practice IMO. You want your horse to stay put when you DrOp the rope, not to walk away ! |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 8:42 am: Bravo Tammy and Eleonar ... a day without a "Can't get near her" post might be refreshing. Bob has been "thrown" and seems to be getting back on, so let's not push him off again. Lots of valuable info anyway, regardless of how it started. Let's get back to helping everyone train and care for the greatest animals in the land ... God I love these horses...Best to all and Happy Holidays.... |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 9:51 am: Robert ... just one last post from me on this issue just in case you are serious, if not, maybe someone else is. I have a 6yo App mare that had never been started. I round penned, joined up, and all the standards and began riding. She was learning so fast, I probably took some short cuts but she was riding wonderfully. She responded to leg cues, smooth walk to trot to lope, stop and go and neck reining. One slight problem though. She did not want to be caught. Once caught, she was great but it was a battle every day. She would run around the pasture forever to keep me from catching her until finally she would be cornered, or just tired and we would get to the riding training. As we all can attest to, it doesn't matter how good a horse rides if you can't catch them. So, I went back to basics ... steps I skipped because I thought she was learning so fast... my mistake, not hers.We returned to the round pen with lateral flexes, giving the rear, sending off, and in general respect and trust exercises. By the way, she also turned her rear to me in the stall. The giving to the rear exercises remedied this as now I will simply click at her and move my hand and she turns to face me in the stall, and even in the pasture. In catching her in the pasture, I incorporated the following rules. When she would run off, I did not chase. I waited for her to stop and then I would try to approach again. This went on for several weeks, along with the round pen work. At first, she would run off if I got within 50 yards of her. Each time she left, I stopped and turned away and busied myself with something else. Eventually, she did not run off until I got within 100 feet, then 80 feet, then 40 feet etc. Also, I think one important thing is that I did this on off days when I was not going to ride her, just pet her and love on her, etc. She now lets me walk right up to her in the middle of the pasture, and occasionally comes to me. I will keep doing this until she comes to me regularly. Takes a lot of time and patience, but well worth it. Sorry for the "long" post but didn't know any other way to explain. Hope this helps someone. |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 10:12 am: I Apologize to the "honest" members of this site only you know who you are, I will never forgive a lier or a theif. I agree the suggestions are good and it is a helpful thread and I hope you are all getting help from it. |
Member: Lanna1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 10:53 am: Okay, okay already!I think this topic has been beaten to death, but please let's not crucify the members for their honesty! Yes, we are all aware that Bob wasn't truthfull in his original post because he admitted to it & appologized. Why should the rest of us apologize for how we honestly feel about it?!? This is the last you'll hear from me in regards to this topic, but I wanted to set the record straight & suggest that we are all entitled to our opinion & rely soley on the honesty of one anothers posts. Enough said, Lanna in BC |
Member: Goolsby |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 11:21 am: DennisHow long have you been at your catching method and do you expect she will at one point always come to you? My alpha appy, Iv had for years now, is still hard to catch. I eventually get her, but she dosent make it easy. She knows when it is the weekend. I can walk up to her in a 30 acre field on the weekdays but not Sat. or Sun. I have done the things you spoke of. I even get the halter on, just stand there with her speaking softly then turn her loose. Now if I bring the other horse up to the barn, she come up as fast as she can. She has never turned her back to me nor has she had any other issues. I would be comfortable sleeping under her. I think she just enjoys making life a little harder for me. I tell people its part of her charm. The TWH gelding I had would walk up and put his nose in the halter anytime. I do wish I could get her to do that! Colleen |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 11:37 am: LANNA GET OFF MY BACK I BELIEVE I POSTED AN APOLOGY IF YOU WOULD READ IT !!!!!! |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 11:55 am: Colleen ... It's been just a few weeks now and great progress made. I do eventually expect her to come to me "most" of the time. They will always test us and that is their job, we just have to be consistent. She can not get her way. Remember she is an alpha for a reason, and you need to become alpha to her. As with the herd, it is an ongoing game to see who is in charge. I honestly think the respect and trust exercises are the greatest. Good luck and I am sure she will come along. |
Member: Lanna1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 12:01 pm: Yikes!I wasn't planning to post anything further on this topic, but I felt I needed to reply! Janette, you were one of the "honest" ones I've been referring to! I've been agreeing to every post you've had on this subject whole heartedly, in fact my last post was more in response to the members who have been writing in defense of Bob. I felt it was important to point out who was in the wrong in this case & please leave those of us alone who have posted our honest thoughts/feelings about the deceit! No offense intended, I'm getting out of here! Lanna in BC |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 1:05 pm: Now whatever happened to those wear-a-mare ears that Chris Mills posted about recently ... I knew they'd come in useful. I feel maybe Janette could use a pair [only joking...]But seriously, any chance of just packing in this thread and chalking it up to experience before anyone else loses their sense of humour? Imogen |
Member: Westks |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 1:27 pm: I LOST MY SENSE OF HUMOR ON THIS THREAD LIGHT YEARS AGO |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 5:47 pm: Well, this is a thread about negotiating bad manners with patience and forgiveness, isn't it ?Or is it about approaching the difficult ones and making the best possible out of it? |
Member: Goolsby |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003 - 6:59 pm: DennisThis is probably not the place for this, but since I was responding to your comment on hard to catch horses, I will go ahead here. Thank you for your good wishes. But just to be clear, she does not get her way and she is alpha horse, not alpha over me. I dont agree that it is an ongoing game to see who is in charge. I am. She just dosent like to get roped, haltered, saddled and haul my big fat but up and down hills for 20 miles when she is perfectly happy lounging around being the boss of 30 acres of lush green grass. Cant say I blame her. I think you are making great progress. I did what you are doing and I can walk up to her in the pasture or she will come to me as long as I dont have a rope in my hand. I do get her from the pasture when I have a rope and halter, but most times I must resort to a little trickery. It would be nice if she did come up and willingly put her head in her halter or better yet come running from nowhere all saddled and ready at just a whistle. Colleen |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 1:48 am: Colleen. Use a light rope and coil it up and put it in your pocket... or down the front of your trousers. It works with one of mine!All the best Imogen |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 8:13 am: Colleen ... that would be great ... huhNothin' personal on the "alpha" reference .. just something we all need to keep in mind .. and I'm sure we do. Good suggestion from Imogen. |
Member: Albionsh |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Imogen, I agree with the sneaky approach, plus doing the unexpected. When I get the rope out of my pocket, I use it to scratch the neck, then shake it out a little and dangle it over the back, then after another scratch with the rope....walk away. No threat--no need to escape. Another winner is putting the fearful horse up for a couple of days (out of pasture)--and feeding all grain rations a special way. She would need to push aside a tangle of rope to get the mouthful of grain, leading gradually to her needing to put her head through a large loop before she can have the grain. Food wins--every time, but it does take patience. |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 2:01 am: I always find these descriptions of sending the difficult-to-catch horse away and then it will come to you quite funny. I have horses that LIKE to be sent away from the others. They think it's a great game... yes, let's spend 2 hours running around a muddy field on a short winter's day!I agree it does work in the end, but I don't have time most of the time so yes, I leave halters on, hide ropes in my pocket, use titbits to attract the horses which aren't going to be worked to fool the one which is. If all else fails I use small amounts of grain to attract all the others into a separate space leaving the naughty horse on its own which (usually) produces an instant change of attitude a lot faster than "sending away". Also where possible I ride in the morning when they've been in the stable thus when they have to be caught it's getting dark and they're hungry and they know there won't be any work involved. I believe establishing routine to be important in reinforcing "good" catching behaviour. Also I was thinking in relation to Colleen's problem of the issue that if you have one difficult-to-catch horse and you use the sending-away routine, then it will often teach the others the bad habit given half a chance - doubles the fun! Just another view... All the best Imogen |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 18, 2003 - 3:39 pm: I am surprised, Imogen, that a horse would enjoy being sent away from the herd. I do believe you, don't get me wrong. It is just that it has always worked for me, and that's several horses I have worked with.It takes time, but not more than one hour per horse, and you rarely have to repeat more than twice. Can it be that you send them away in too playful a way? It takes a fit person to keep them away from the rest of the herd, but no real athlete or something. And sometimes it boils down to making them circle with a lunge whip until they quit the game, but that's all. It has always been a permanent fix here, no matter what the horse. Oops, one major difference, I have never cared to teach a horse to come over. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and that's ok with me. But they won't even think of running away, and that's all I need. |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 2:03 am: I'd say I have to do it with one horse about 3 times a year. I am fit, I know how to do the technique and I NEVER let her get away with not being caught. I just don't think it's the complete fix often claimed - you have to weave it in with other things and it's too time consuming (can take up to 2.5 hours with that horse and usually has to be combined with a game of grandmother's footsteps).I agree with you, I don't mind whether they come to me or not generally, I just won't allow the walking-away-from-you trick... |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, Dec 19, 2003 - 8:43 am: I do not know, may be my attitude is too harsh on the other hand and that is why they don't walk away no more, though I never hit them or anything like that.Again, all the horses I have been working with are very sensitive, thin skinned, hot animals. Very little punishment, as much as shouting from time to time or just an angry posture, is more than adequate to put them in order. I have no experience with heavy-type, really cold blooded horses. Can that be the difference? |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 - 12:35 pm: Hi all ,its been near a year now and my little filly is broke and is smooth as silk to ride .However I am not able to ride very long any more getting to old I guess 74 now and short of breath .But she turned out to be very loving and gentle great little p.paso.Hope you are all fine .Sorry about the uproar I caused R.B. |
Member: Cowgrl |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 - 1:25 pm: Hi Bob,Although I wasn't involved in the original thread, I just finished reading all of it and it's nice of you to give us an update. I'm happy your filly turned out to be the wonderful little critter you knew she could be. All the best. Holly |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 - 3:10 pm: Thank you.Bob. |
Member: Rjbraun |
Posted on Friday, Dec 24, 2004 - 4:57 pm: Hi all Merry Christmas&Happy New Year .Its been a while since I wrote .My Paso is two and half and doing ok .Best to all .Bob. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 7:10 pm: Merry Christmas Bob,DrO |
Member: Skye |
Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 10:56 am: Yes, Bob, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Good to hear your Paso Fino is well. |