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Member: twhgait |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 11:53 am: My new horse has several issues, but I'm posting this under rearing, because that seems to be her biggest one. I bought my new mare at the end of March from a well-respected, reputable TWH breeder and personal friend. I've known this mare for at least 5 years and have always loved her. She's very personable and sweet. First to come, LOVES attention, always seemed easy-going and calm. My trainer knew her even better-helped foal her out once and filled in as caretaker and trainer for the farm.A little background..she's 10...was orphaned at 2 months old and bottle-raised (I'm not sure why they didn't just go straight to hay and grain). Her sire's line is known for having cantankerous mares. Two strikes against her right there. Her previous owner hasn't done anything with her training..she was only used as a broodmare (her two foals also have a reputation for rearing) for the last 5-7 years. She was sent off for training to KY when she was about 3, was broke out in pads. She did very well (she was in the "top" barn, she had tons of potential as a padded horse) but was eventually sent home because they couldn't put the time into her that she needed to get over her issues. My understanding is that she threw the trainer one too many times. I had assumed that she had the quick "culling" training that most TWH trainers employ, but her previous owner tells me that she wasn't, and was actually with a natural trainer for awhile and did OK with him, but he didn't have time (I didn't find this out until after I bought her-I would have actually NOT bought her had I known that). She returned home, had her babies and has been living the life of leisure until I bought her. My plan was to use her as a model (halter) horse and eventually get her back under saddle. Her previous owner said "I'm not selling her as a riding horse!!", so I can't say I wasn't warned! But I have all the time in the world, so I figure I'll try. No great loss if it doesn't work out with that. Her babies have both been very nice and successful in the show ring and I always had breeding as an option. Well, living with her has showed me a whole new side to her behavior. She's pulled a variety of tricks since coming here. The first trick was to jump/crawl over her stall door when she decided one morning she didn't want to be in it anymore. Her next trick was a bite to my flank when she decided to go after my other mare and I was in the middle. After that, we immediately worked on "I'm boss" in the pasture, which I accomplished with just voice and carrying a whip (I've never hit her with it). She responds quickly and appropriately when I tell her to move away from me or another horse I might be near. This is one of the only things she's done consistently-the other is grooming. My trainer started coming out a week or so later to start working on ground basics. That's when the rearing started. She'll rear if she's unsure, scared or just plain being a snot. My trainer has used the tight circling technique to get her attention back and keep her grounded but moving and it has worked, except she has to do this every single time she works with her. Every session begins with rearing. We don't get loud with her, or aggressive, she doesn't respond to that. Basically, as long as I or the trainer are quiet and telling her "easy" or circling her endlessly, she'll stay down on the ground. The downside of that is that we get nothing done except working in tight circles to get her moving. Her last lesson was working on lounging (we wanted to get moving somewhere else except tight circles!!), that ended with her wrapping the lounge line around her neck because she reared and spun, reared and spun. I should mention too, that my trainer has not been here consistantly to work with her. I know consistency and moving too fast are mistakes we have made. She's also very unpredictable. Hoof picking for instance. Some days she fine, other days, it's up in the air or pulling back to avoid it (I don't give up...I just do the "whoa, easy" and get the feet picked, all the time praying to Jesus that she doesn't kill me). Leading is also inconsistant. Some days she'll be right beside me doing fine and other days, it's "NOPE. Don't WANT to" or "OMGOMGOMG" if we happen to be moving away from her herdmates. My latest injury was a week ago to my ankle when she decided to spook while I was leading her out to the pasture (a VERY short trip)...she started to rear...and hit my ankle in the upward swing with her front hoof. No broken bones, but swelling and black and blue. Why was walking out to the pasture suddenly a big ordeal? Nothing was different except I took out another mare first and that got her terribly excited. I'm getting to the end of my rope. I can deal with cantankerous, no problem. My yearling taught me how to deal with that and we did well and I taught him most of what he knew and he was a good citizen for the most part. It's the unpredictableness, the rearing and the inability to get anything done with her. Normally I'd expect we'd of at least made a few strides forward at this point, but no. I'm sick and tired of getting hurt and of course worry about my safety--the next incident might not be one I can continue to function thru. I don't think she would intentionally ever hurt me, but she's got no problems letting me know she's refusing to do something either. There's no way on God's green earth I'd even consider breeding her at this point. I don't consider her a decent broodmare because of her attitude. I need help here. Desperately. I don't know how to get past her issues!! Obviously the "natural" training seems to have worked best with her, but neither me or my trainer know anything about it. And my trainer is letting me down big-time by not being here as often as she promised. The biggest reason I went ahead with buying her was because the trainer said she'd help me. I don't know of any natural trainers around here that I could even send her to (IF I had the extra money for that-my current trainer comes to my house so all I pay for is the lesson). I'm almost in tears over this. I feel like I'm back to owning that first mare I had after I got back into horses. The one that DID try to kill me, numerous times. With so many good horses in the world, I don't need these problems, but I'd also hate to give up without checking with you all first. I don't think her previous owner would take her back...she's getting out of horses/breeding all together and retiring. |
Member: amara |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 1:33 pm: hi kim,so sorry to hear about your problems.. its so hard when we want to help but dont know how to do it... you already know that some of your problems are going to fast and not doing things consistently.. you're also doing things that only put minor band aids on a big huge wound...carrying a whip, circling, etc...these just address symptoms, not the deep route of the problem... have you looked at the behavior modifications methods in this subtopic? they might give you a leg to stand on so you can at least work around her more safely... i am a huge proponent of natural type horsemanship and have worked with many horses like yours and no longer have those problems with them...natural type horsemanship basically teaches you to go to the bare basics of the horse's mind and develop your relationship from there... you dont work on things like lunging or grooming.. you develop the relationship and all that stuff just falls into place... you could try looking at some of the video's out there, but i dont think that a video is generally the right way to go, as its basically taking the cookie cutter approach.. however, they can teach you how to change the way you work around your horse, and that will change the way she perceives you, and that will go a long way to changing your relationship... the best thing in my mind is to find a good trainer who understands how the horse's mind thinks... i dont think the trainer you have right now does, otherwise you wouldnt have the problems you have... its not as expensive as you think, as sometimes you dont need to see the trainers as often, especially once you begin to understand the concept...when i first started learning this i only saw my guy every other month because he lived in mich. and i lived in CT...a lot of these guys are willing to travel to help... you could try sending her away to a good trainer... you could also consider a horse rescue if they were willing to take on problem horses... good luck |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 2:29 pm: Thanks Melissa! I really was thinking she'd be a great addition to our family after my yearling Legs died. I guess I should have spent more time with her before I bought her. We groomed her and picked her feet at her old place and she was fine with everything. I remember she even spooked because snow was falling off the roof, but all she did was a little jump in place. She's like a whole new creature here. I know I'm spending way more personal time with her then her previous owner too, so maybe it's a combination of everything and I'm just in her way more?I did look into the behavior modification section here, but I'll look again...I probably missed something applicable the first time. I'm pretty sure we don't have any natural horsemen around here. At least I've never heard of any and I think I know most of them. Lot's of them are cowboys and I can see Royal seriously hurting someone if they pushed her too hard, too fast. Do you recommend any one particular natural horseman? I used to be a big fan of John Lyons... |
Member: amara |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 2:50 pm: sometimes our spending a lot of time with them can be good, other times it can be bad, especially if they have some budding emotional troubles and we fail to recognize them and help the horse work thru them... the fact that she tried to leave by going over her stall door says that she really had a problem being confined by humans... its not so much the stall was the problem-remember the stall is just an extension of the human... the fact that she comes to you for face rubbing and sweets doesnt mean she loves you, but only that she sees you as something there to serve...i dont know the cowboys in your area, and cant truly speculate on your mare's problem without giving her a personal evaluation... sometimes what we think is fear is disrespect and the horse might do really well with a tougher trainer, and othertimes what we think is disrespect is fear, and that tough trainer would totally backfire.. a lot of the trainers travel and do clinics all over, so that may be the way to go if you want to keep her...the guy i worked with is no longer in the business professionally... i've heard some good things about clinton anderson and dennis reis... they seem to understand more about the psyche of the horse...and i think that's whats missing here... you may need to go to some different clinics and see what clicks for you...if it doesnt click for you so that you can understand and utilize it, it doesnt matter who it is... if you cant travel sometimes good long videos sent to a trainer can help you get started.. i know the guy i worked with used to do that occasionally if he couldnt make it out for a long time and one of us were having problems.. (there were about 10 of us in the "area"(200 mile area) that he came to see)..its not the best solution by a long shot but sometimes the only way... some horse rescues know more trainers and might know someone who wants a project horse...that's how i've gotten a few of mine actually... good luck |
Member: denise |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 3:10 pm: Kim,I agree that getting rid of the rearing is a good place to start. I would like to recommend teaching your horse the "head down cue" or "calm down cue". I believe John Lyons may have this in one of his DVD's. The reasoning behind this is because a horse can not rear when its head is down. If Royal is taught to give to pressure on the lead line and the head down cue is taught very well, she should put her head down as soon as she puts tension on the lead line. This will also most likely calm her down quickly if she is frightened or anxious about leaving her herdmates. I hope that you are able to find a reputable trainer nearby to help you. |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 4:09 pm: Hi Kim, I see you are from Wi. The guy that broke Hank for me is in Platteville Wi. He is a Parelli trainer and does a wonderful job with "cantakerous" horses. Hank was that type, he came home a well broke, well mannered animal until I ruined it!The trainer told me respect is not transferable to other people and I had to earn it. Hank and I embarked on a long journey and at one time I was ready to give up. He did have the training, but I didn't utilize it THEN. He still scared me and knew it. These kind of horses thrive on that. I went and took lessons on how to be confident and unafraid of Hank when I handled him.....what a difference. He is one of a kind and I thank him for that now because he taught me horsemanship....that I never knew existed. I can do just about anything at liberty with him, he's my partner now. He still has that personality show up once in awhile, but now I laugh at his antics instead of being scared and it makes quite a difference. I don't know if you would be interested in that Parelli trainer, I'm not even sure he does it anymore. I was very impressed with the Parelli training and it still sticks with Hank to this day, but I would suggest the training for you also, because if you don't know it, it is useless. I found that out the hard way! Good Luck and stay safe |
Member: freshman |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 5:38 pm: Sorry to hear that the horse isn't turning out to be what you hoped. She sounds like a opinionated, aggressive mare that has never been properly handled or trained to have a safe working relationship with humans. Her initial training programs were ineffective and inconsistant, as you described, and since then there has been very low expectations for her. Too bad, because this means that you have to work much harder and take a very hard line with this mare.I'd suggest sending her to a pro trainer that has a good reputation, references available, and that, above all, will work her consistantly. Make sure that the trainer is close enough to home that you can visit often enough to closely monitor the work that is being done with your horse, etc. I've heard too many horror stories about horses being sent off to trainers that do not work with them as consistantly as promised or abuse/neglect them. If the horse must go farther away, demand that the trainer send regular videos of the training sessions, etc, so you can gauage the progress and the horse's condition, etc. If you choose to keep the mare at home, it will be necessary, in my opinion, to seperate the mare from the herd completely for some time. This means no turnout unless it is out of sight, touch, etc of other horses. Her stall must not have other horses in direct sight or touch, either. Make sure she can't engage with the horse next door or across the aisle, next to her, etc. A roundpen with tall, solid walls would be ideal. It sounds harsh, but she needs to be forced to focus and rely on you rather than the other horses. Work with her out of sight, etc, of the other horses. Obviously, conistant firm handling is necessary when you do interact with her. I think her behavior will improve very much once she is removed from the other horses. She may get worse when first isolated. As long as she is in a safe stall or other enclosure, let her freak for awhile if she gets upset, etc. Toss her hay over the top, fill the water from the outside, and leave her alone until she is calm. No babying or cooing over her, best not to talk to her at all. Just the basics When she realizes that you're it, all she has to interact with, she should be much more receptive to your atttention and training. Once she becomes responsive to you and safe to deal with, try introducing her to back into a more normal environment. This sort of horse may not ever be able to be treated like a normal horse, requiring very, very consistant and skilled handling to ensure that she remains ok with humans. A vacation or other period of time without being worked, just being turned out to pasture, etc, may take you back to square one. |
Member: dove2 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 10:07 pm: Kristin, Have you actually done this type of isolation to a horse? How long did your horse "freak out?" And how do you know when the horse becomes responsive and safe to deal with? I realize that isolation from the herd of horses is the worse possible punishment for a horse, but I'm curious how you would know when and how to bring her back? Are you talking about a day, a week or a month of isolation? Is it possible this punishment could, in fact, make the horse worse and even more dangerous? Mental training is so different from physical training. She may not understand why she is being punished. I'm curious about your own experiences with this approach. (Inquiring minds want to know!) |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 8:43 am: Kim,I read your post and just skimmed through everyone's answers quickly. But what I would suggest is free lounging round pen work first. Move her around and around, step towards her head to change directions. You'll have to really hustle, plan on both of you getting tired and warm! As her head DrOps, and she licks and chews, step back and DrOp your eyes, relax and see if she'll turn and face you. Ask her to join up with you...meaning walk towards you and then eventually follow you quietly. That's a simplified version of it. Once you do that with any horse, you've changed the leadership roles. It works with an aggressive horse, timid horse, flighty horse,etc. Clinton Anderson's Book, Down Under Horsemanship, tells how to do this. That would be the cheapest way to go. His Video's are better, as you see what he's doing. Sounds like a horse that was spoiled, then rushed through some training to preform a certain way. She's overwhelmed and not trusting people at this point. I happen to be very "anti-show" with most breeds, just because the training is for one goal...produce a show ring "peacock" that steps high, holds his head high, and goes round and round for a ribbon. Not saying that happend with this mare, but it does sound like she's overwhelmed and disrespectful. The other thing I'd suggest is don't get caught up in one way...say just CA's method. I think that is what I'd use for the round pen work, then I'd see how she's reacting, then perhaps shift gears and try a more gentle approach, like Dennis Reis would use. I am sure if DT reads your concerns he'll have suggestions and more details than me. Good luck, keep us up to date and stay safe. |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 11:07 am: Kim ... First, I try to get a good read on the horse's body language and eyes to determine which approach I need to use. If she is "wild eyed" and "skiddish", it is more likely fear, maybe even caused by some abusive training in the past. If she seems to be somewhat calm and relaxed prior to the rear, it may well be a disrespect and leadership challenge issue.If it is a fear issue, I don't focus on the problem per se'. I like to go back and find something she can handle like lateral flex, etc. I will do these exercises that she is good at and make sure I give lots of praise and reward for every little effort. Then I will start adding exercises aimed at getting to her current "blow up" point. Remember, it is very important to not ask for too much at one time, and to reward the slightest try. Let her build confidence and trust in you as you go. If a disrespect issue, I will also step back a few steps, but will be more firm. Same rewards for good behaviour, but a little more firm for poor behaviour. In my experience with this type behaviour, I find that if I carry a small whip which I can handle much better than a long lunge whip because I want my response to be quick and firm. I will work up to the "blow up" point and when she first begins to challenge with a rear, I will pop with the whip and send away aggressively and put to work. I will then set up for the "blow up" situation again and repeat. It usually only takes a few attempts before she starts getting the message. DO NOT be mean and start the battle. Handle exactly as you would a horse that gives you no problem, and don't go in looking for a fight because your horse can read that as well. Give her room to commit to the mistake, then correct it immediately, then forget it and try again. I have found that is many cases, when stepping back in training and using these methods, the "blow up" point never comes. We have actually worked through it without it ever actually happening by developing the trust and confidence. One last point that is true. This respect does not carry over from trainer to owner automatically. It must be earned and reinforced. That is why it is so important to be involved in the training process, and understand and learn for yourself. Your horse may decide to challenge you again from time to time and you need to know how to handle it. If you are firm and consistent, the problems become less and less. Probably the most important factor is learning to read your horse to help determine just where the problem is rooted. A lot of people say to never look a horse in the eye. I personally think that is bunch of "bull". I learn so much from eye contact and read it constantly. Would you never look a friend in the eye? Hope this helps and best of luck. DT |
Member: dres |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 11:24 am: Love all that DT has had to say.. May i add to it.. Don't loose your temper in handling a horse like this.. it will only make it worse.. Give a horse fair warning you are giving a Q.. first ask quietly.. second try ask louder.. THIRD TRY ENFORCE the ask .. Your horse will start to 'listen' to you on the first ask... It all takes time.. tons and tons of time.. and lots of just standing relax time as well.. you might feel you are doing nothing but you are..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: dove2 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 11:40 am: Just for clarification, DT, when you say "I will pop with the whip and send away aggressively...", do you mean you make a popping sound with the whip or do you mean you actually strike the horse with the whip? Just want to make sure I understand. |
Member: mfrance |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 11:45 am: Hi Kim, I would like to reinforce what Denny (DT) posted above. Denny has worked with both of our horses with great results. Recently my 7 year old gelding would not let me send him out but decided to start rearing (he knows how to send very well). Denny came by and was able to send him no problem. We had a respect problem. Denny had me send him and as soon as he reared I popped him on the neck with a short stick that flexes (not a whip). He went out with no problem and changed directions with no problems etc. Since that time, he has been fine. As Denny said for some reason he decided to test me and had respect for Denny but not me. Hope that helps. Mike. |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 12:16 pm: Dove ... In this case I meant to pop the horse on the neck as the rearing is an aggressive move on the horse's part. If the horse is simply ignoring my request, I will gradually increase my pressure up to a tapping on the neck, then to a pop if needed. My goal is for the horse to respond to the first "ask". When they do, pressure is immediately released. I will only "hit" a horse in response to an aggressive and dangerous act .. never as a standard part of any training exercise.Ann makes a great point .. you can not get angry. It is your responsibility to be calm and in control if you want your horse to be calm. DT |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 1:54 pm: Hi Kim, is it possible she is so very difficult and different from the horse you have seen with the former owner because nobody has ever thaught her anything and it was her home for a long time which really could make her insecure apart from cantankerous and dangerous in a different environment then she knows well.If you know her foals and they have a good attitude I would even consider breeding her[with a stallion of impeccable character] because thats the work and life she knows . Apart from that imo a lot of mares are more easy to handle and consistent if pregnant[you do take a risk ofcourse because others aren't but you could ask her former owner] I wouldn't know why you cannot train a pregnant mare but you would go slowly because of her pregnancy which seems something she needs anyway. I myself would never choose to isolate a horse but instead have always tried to 'glue'a difficult horse to one I completely trust to help me train the basic things[real working horses are a different thing but she seems a long way away from that] Just wanted to give you another opinion and not with the intention to contradict the others but to explain what worked for me with my most difficult horses. Jos |
Member: erika |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 3:57 pm: Oh boy, I don't know where to begin. I think that both Melissa and Dennis, and probably some of the rest of you could make something of this horse.Your advice is sound. But, I also think that this will always be a difficult mare that you will have to constantly stay on top of mentally and physically. She will need constant and consistent training to keep her from reverting to bad behavior. She will always test you. If you enjoy a challenge, fine. But get professional help so the horse doesn't kill you in the process. Rearing is SO dangerous! As for breeding, you said that her offspring are known for rearing also. Evidently, there are genetic lines of broncos, so could be an inheritable trait. We should really only breed horses that are desirable to duplicate, right? I've said it before, it is so much nicer to go out and ride a horse with a pleasant attitude than to dread going out to "work" a miserable one. Some will accuse me of telling you to "quit" this mare, that she deserves another (yet another?) chance, etc. But having read your profile Kim, I see that you were relieved to get a sweet horse after your previous challenge. You need to ask yourself if this is really how you want to spend your valuable horse time. If not, Melissa had a great suggestion--seek a rescue organization that may have the ability to rehab her and place her appropriately. |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 4:11 pm: That is job security Mike .. I want you to always need a trainer.Once again, Erika is right on point. I always see these posts from a "trainer's" point of view. A horse like this will require a lot of time and patience .. and, as Erika said, can be dangerous. As a pleasure rider, I might just have to consider moving on to another mount. Thanks Erika for keeping my mind open. DT |
Member: erika |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 5:07 pm: You got it, cowboy. Mutual admiration society. |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 5:45 pm: As usual, you guys are AWESOME!! I sooo appreciate all the help and suggestions! I had the opportunity to speak with a dear friend who trained walkers for longer then I've been alive (which is going on 42 years). We discussed Royal and her "habits" and she gave me some insight into her sires line. Seems they are all very intelligent horses. Misbehavior = I understand what you want but I don't think YOU understand what I want!! I think I may have "outsmarted" myself with her. I can also say with certainty that sometimes she acts up just "because", but other times, she's truly worried/scared. I can see the difference in her eyes from when she's just being Royal to when she's getting upset.Diane, I'm totally surprised that Hank was similar! I've been following your thread and never would have guessed! That give me hope for this girl. Unfortunately, Platville is about 120-ish miles away from me. I'm going to do a search around here and see what I come up with. Erika, you bring up some really, really valid points, and know that I'm going to continue to consider that. I don't mind putting time into a horse, Lord knows when Legs was alive, he kept me moving and always thinking! I don't feel frightened by Royal, at least not to the point that I'm not going to work with or around her. I've learned A LOT since that paint mare many years ago, and I have that confidence back. Now I just watch her for her next outburst (she doesn't hide it well)...always prepared and on the lookout. I have zero plans of riding her this year. We are going to have to work on the ground stuff first and get that solid before I even think about anyone sitting on her. Right now the model classes are even a distant possibility for this year. If I thought for an INSTANT that she was really trying to hurt me (like that paint mare), I wouldn't hesitate to throw her butt off this farm so fast her head would spin. I do think she's going thru the motions of what's been successful for her in the past. Her previous owner DID lack self-confidence and DIDN'T push Royal to behave, so I imagine Royal knows that and capitalizes on it now. And so the cycle will begin with me. I think she's just going to keep testing me until she realizes I'm not messing around. I just came in from picking her feet and thankfully, she did just fine. Today, a good day. Tommorrow? Who knows. But above all, don't worry, I will be safe and I will watch were I am in relation to her...always stay at the shoulder is what I've read around here. Denise, I remember that cue!! In fact, I still have his book here somewhere. I'm going to dig it out and re-read it. Refresh my memories some more... I'll look into some of these other trainers mentioned too....see if any one can fit into my abilities and facilities. I was wondering about Parelli? Maybe the games might help her if she's so smart? Dennis, I wish you were HERE!!! I can tell you that how you recommend handling her is exactly how she needs to be handled. It's the perfect way to avoid her blow-ups. And she'll understand that type of approach very well. It is alot of respect issues with her...heck, if she respected me she wouldn't throw herself into me. Thank you Thank you Thank you! Jos, Yes, Yes and YES. I believe that's alot of where this is coming from. She lived on that farm her whole life, same owner, same lack of training. I even gave her the benefit of the doubt for awhile because of that, but it's been two months now and she knows enough of the routine of feeding and grooming that I think she's comfortable with it. I'm going to print this thread out and take it to the barn with me. Don't worry if you don't hear anything from me for a day or two..I have to plan this all out first and then approach the mare. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:41 pm: Just wanted to comment that I am glad to see someone say to watch the horses eyes. Great point Denny! I've heard a few trainers say that, on tv or in their writings, that looking in their eyes is too "predatory like"...I tried that approach and didn't like it, didn't feel the communication. Think you can look with soft, loving eyes or angry eyes, and the horse will know it, and you can read their eyes in return. |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:43 pm: What I meant to say was .... I would look for a really good horse trainer in West Central Indiana to send my horse. To heck with the cost, this horse is worth it.Visit www.dthorsealliance.com for details. DT |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 10:52 pm: OK guys...HUGE epiphany....Today, I let them out to pasture before I did anything (got sidetracked because my old mare cut her eyelid, had the vet out and she needed stitches!!). First thing Royal and Lilly (my other 10y.o.) did was run and buck and run and buck...Royal's done this before, but I never really took too much notice. Anyways, they ran and RAN and finally settled down to eat. After the vet left and I had to wait for Maude to wake up, I did some leading with Royal. She did fine. We went out of the paddock. She did fine. I brought her to the spooky tack barn. She did fine. THEN it occured to me: Where she used to live, she was out on 20 acre pastures 24/7 in the summer. Here, she's on a dry small paddock all day and, because I'm only just weaning them onto grass now, they're up to 2hrs a day on pasture-which is also a much bigger area. I just bet that she's not getting enough "play" time in that small paddock and this is helping play into her bad behavior. That's a HUGE change for her. I've literally cut her exercise down to a 1/3 of what she used to get. Just to see if I'm right, I'm going to start turning them out early and then working her after she's had time to "blow off some steam". |
Member: kamibroo |
Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 11:13 pm: Kim, I have a gelding that came in unhandled. He took up kicking and later learned to rear as his way of saying 'I don't want to'. There was no fear involve, he just wanted HIS way.I tried the natural techniques briefly, but that was like of a battle of wills between us and he routinely resorted back to his attitude. I'm now using clicker training techniques with him and his is the BEST horse I have with the clicker training. He 'gets it' very quickly , seeks me out to do 'lessons' and even gets jealous when I'm training the other horses. At least for him, it turned him around from a self-centered attitude (I'll do it if I'm in the mood) to what seems like a genuine interest to learn and do new things that are asked of him. Just a different approach to consider. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 6:44 am: Kim,my mare 'Renaissance Z' is a girl who outsmarts almost everyone[even professional trainers]Her father gave only 115 children before he died 17 jump Grand Prix level[two on the olympics in Athens] the others as we say'you cannot ride'[mine is of course one of them].She is born with me [her mother had a lovely character very good attitude and so do her half brother and sister] but I hesitated until this year to breed her. Still at nine years and after a LOT of work and patience and with sending her little friend Akacja with her the[professional] guys at the 'haras' are very content with her conduct. She behaves good [a little bit stressed when locked in in a box] and tolerates al examination without fuss.I do not want to breed difficult horses but... her family functions very well she is the last mare I have got from this family and I am confident she will be a good mother because her behaviour with other horses has always been impeccable so this is why I suggested you to consider breeding your horse if her offspring pleases you. The other thing I learned from my own is the more space and freedom she has the easier she gets, in France with walk in stables and big paddocks she got really confident and relaxed after a while. In Holland she needed to be put in her box during the night which stressed her. Over here I can work her no problem with vets farrier or traveling if I handle her myself. Still it will ALWAYS stay a difficult horse and I will never let children or unexperienced people with her. On the other hand as you say of yours she NEVER intends to hurt me her eyes are honest. Jos |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 7:06 am: Kim the lack of turn out to blow off steam could defintetly play a role in their behavior, especially if they have a "high strung" personality.When I worked at a mostly TB barn, spring was very interesting when it came to leading them to turnout.They started at 30 mins. a day and were in a very small paddock for 4hrs. Even the well behaved ones turned into pigs wanting to get out. The trainer wouldn't even attempt riding until they had been out at least 2 hrs., not that he couldn't handle them, but he knew mentally they wouldn't concentrate well. You may be on to something. The Parelli trainer I had said they should behave no matter what, but I always gave a little bit taking into consideration the situation. The "seven games" are wonderful tools. |
Member: lhenning |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 1:50 pm: I would go back to the basics as if she had never worked with a human before. Start slow, do easy things she can handle and reward her. Build trust. Work her every day to build a work ethic in her mind. Think about how you are pressuring her because it sounds like you are putting too much pressure on. Release is what teaches, so timing the release is crucial.I had the same problem with trying to find an NH trainer here in Wisconsin. Finally I decided to learn NH myself and become the trainer. Well, I've made my share of mistakes but I learn more every day. There is no reason you can't train your own horse in NH if that is what you want to do. All the "big" NH trainers have very simple step by step approaches that are designed for beginners. My trick was to learn it without spending a gazillion dollars in the process. I found a ton of free info on the internet. Check out these pages: https://www.horsekeeping.com/ https://www.horsewhisperer.com/articles_by_frank_bell.htm https://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/training.shtml https://www.kbrhorse.net/pag/train.html https://www.juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=17 That is just a beginning. I also purchased Clinton Anderson's book "Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders", $16 on Amazon. I went through each exercise, which is easily explained for a beginner. This book probably had more to do with training respectfulness to my horse than anything else I have done. Also, there is a ton of NH on RFD TV, if you get that channel. It is not hard to learn and if you make a mistake it can usually be corrected by going back a step or two. There used to be a member here on HA named Christos and he gave such good advice that I wish he were still here. One thing he told me was when my horse bolted on me that I was putting too much pressure on him and that was causing his bad behavior. He explained that pressure to a horse can be just asking them to stand still, or lift a leg, or anything we want them to do to be good horsies. In my case, that turned out to be very true. Your horse has only been on your property a few months and is still getting used to the place so she must have some fear issues. I wonder if you step back a bit and ask simpler things, then reward her good behavior, if that will help her relax a bit. I think if you can find her sweet side, the way you describe she used to be, you will find a way to reach her. Good luck, Linda |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 2:28 pm: Kim, I read all the posts and there is lots of good advice but I thought that I would mention that rearing often comes from not wanting to go forward. I have been watching Parelli on RFDtv working with a horse who rears. He is a nice horse who is doing what he thinks his owners want him to do. They want him to lunge but try to move his rear. They ended up doing the moving and not the horse. After Parelli got the horse to "join up" he put him on a halter and a 12' line and used his carrot stick to move the horse's shoulder. He actually had to tap the side of his nose a couple times to get him to turn his head in the direction he wanted him to go.I have a filly who also tends to rear if she is confused or doesn't want to move her feet. She doesn't go too high and I always stand my ground but if she got away with it, she is smart enough to use it to her advantage. From the time she was little I have known that she is a dominate personality, so I always make sure that she respects me. I also like the trainers that have been mentioned as well as Chris Cox. I have learned a lot from watching them on RFDtv, so if you can get satellite I recommend doing it. |
Member: terrilyn |
Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 9:16 am: A list of natural horsemanship trainers for Wisconsin can be found here:https://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/WI-NHTrainers.html There are trainers in Chippewa Falls, Eau Claire, Marshall, Menasha (2), Milton (2), Twin Lakes, and Two Rivers. Best of luck to you!! Terri |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 6:50 pm: Terri, thanks for that list! They are all far away too... I'm gonna ask around here to some trainers I know and see if they know anyone.Linda, thanks for all those links!! I've read everyones advice, and did some research on various natural methods and I'm starting with round pen exercises. My husband is putting up a round pen for me this weekend!! My trainer is coming over-I read her your responses and she loves it and thinks this will really work with this girl. Wish me luck over the weekend...I'll report back soon. |
Member: amara |
Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 10:39 pm: good luck kim.. you need to get started somewhere...if any of those natural horsetrainers are within 200 miles or so of you i would encourage you to check them out and try to work with one on as regular basis as possible.. its so easy to think you've got the thing figured out, only to not recognize something small that ends up blowing up into a huge problem.... with that in mind, learn to look at the very small stuff... its so easy to think that because a horse is standing still with its ears in a natural position that the horse is relaxed... or something similar.. this could not be more wrong...its not just that the eyes should be relaxed...is the horse looking at you, or turning away from you every few seconds.. if the horse is looking away, if it does so for more than 5 seconds without turning back to you then the horse is trying to ignore you... are the eyes open, or half shut? or extra wide? the lips should be soft and the nostrils in a normal position-this is frequently missed... the horse's neck should be about level with his withers... she should stand fairly square and in such a way that when facing you you could draw a plumb line between both sets of legs...if one leg is significantly forward, or set to one side, then the horse is showing you brace, which equates to a lack of acceptance in what you are doing...if you hang there long enough and the horse chooses to rest a hind leg, it should not be shifting its weight from one to the other.. there should be no tail movement (not including natural movement to ward off insects)...these little things are absolutely vital in gauging how your horse is accepting you... watch her expression when you approach her after you work her.. does her neck come up? do her eyes open wider? nostrils flare? ears perk more? these are not good things...if you cant approach a horse that is standing relaxed when away from you without that horse staying equally relaxed when you approach, then the horse doesnt trust you yet... if you go to one side of the horse, does the horse turn her head to the side so the head is in front of you? she's blocking you from approaching that side... well, not meaning to turn this into a training session, because it really is my belief that you cant teach someone how to train a horse over the internet, because you need to see the horse to understand the horse, but i do want to make sure you're aware of all the small stuff that this mare is undoubtedly going to show you that will go a long way in creating the relationship you want with her... good luck |
Member: dtranch |
Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 8:27 am: Great points Melissa ...Being able to read your horse .. and yourself is more important than being able to mechanically duplicate any particular training drill or maneuver. I am in constant communication with the horses I work with, even though 90% of the communication goes unnoticed by anyone but the horse. DT |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 8:50 am: Melissa,I think what you just said is very important and worth repeating. Maybe you can't teach someone how to train over the internet, but you certainly jogged my memory concerning the little things to watch for. Which to the horse, are big things to watch for as they don't communicate verbally. Not too much anyhow. Worthy of printing and adding to my training tips file. Thanks! |
Member: lhenning |
Posted on Friday, Jun 8, 2007 - 9:48 am: Melissa,Great points. I don't mean to imply I've learned horse training over the internet. Nothing compares to the real life experiences. However, there are methods and ideas to be learned and then taken into practice. That is why I stress that I've made mistakes, but found ways to correct them. One should always see progressive improvement. I printed your post also. Some of what you say I have been using, but some things went unnoticed. So now I've learned something else from the internet and will take that with me when I train. Kim, I used the round pen way back in the beginning too. It is a good place to start, IMO. Linda |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 9:46 pm: Update....My one on one work with Royal has confirmed for me that it's not so much "naughtiness" that causes the rear with her, it's the uncertainty she carries with her. Any new situation is met with legs in the air! We've been working v-e-r-y slowly (due to time constraints and me learning her) but progress is made! Royal has turned out to be a poster child for roundpen reasoning! She's back in my good graces for now. She recently had to stand for wrapping of all 4 legs and did awesome. We've been putting a saddle on her...she doesn't mind a bit. She's learning to listen (she still has her moments though, LOL!) and learning the "rules". She still will go up in uncertain situations..we seem to be stuck there! But I feel like I've gained more trust and respect from her, so that's good. She's more timid around people who are not ME and my trainer thinks I'll be the one that has to ride her first! And knock on wood, I haven't had another injury! |
Member: hwood |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:41 pm: It was only just over a month ago when you first posted with your concerns, and look how far you've come in that time! Good for you. You seem to have a very good spirit and understanding of how to do what is needed . . . and the other ingredient is "time." You have seen improvement . . . and I believe you will see more improvement because your horse will grow in confidence as she learns that she can trust you to be consistent and confident with her.There will be set backs, too, and they usually come before a learning spurt, so don't get discouraged . . . just resolve to continue with simple goals, in kindness, firmness, and consistency. If you are able to set your goals and attain them step by step, and put in the time, imagine where you might be with your horse at this time next year! |
Member: gwen |
Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2007 - 8:10 am: I am going to be the voice of your horse and say, "Thanks for sticking with me!" |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 21, 2007 - 10:43 am: LOL, Thanks Gwen!! Her favorite position to greet me is her head on my chest...it took me a while to trust her again (after being bitten and kicked by her, I wasn't so sure I wanted her THAT close!). I kiss her head and she stands there, eyes closed, lovin the scratches, and I think that's her way of sayin' "thanks"!Holly, WOW, thanks for that reminder in the timeline! I guess the time and work does pay off. I'm soooo anxious to see where she's at next year! I'm not eager to be the first one to sit on her, LOL, but if it has to be me, it has to be me. Besides, that is the goal! I talked to her old owner yesterday and told her about the suspected Hoary alyssum Royal got into and how I had to wrap her legs, alone and with no halter. She says "How was she for that??" I said "Just fine. She stood quiet and let me do what I had to do". Marcia says "Wow, that's great...she's never had wraps on before!!". So, another testiment to her growth. I've noticed too, the more I act like "this is the way it is and there's nothing unusual going on", the more she mirrors me and does the same. This will sound strange, but we took the laptop out to the paddock to snap some pictures (it's the only working camera at the moment and my mom wanted pictures of the family) with my son...Royal was snorting and staring at that laptop...I never thought in a million years she'd get close enough to let us take her picture. She did! Here's that picture: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/TWHGAIT/Picture024.jpg You can see she's in "what the heck??" mode, but she stood quiet and trusted that we weren't going to do anything to her! That's me kissing her and my son Jacob in control of the laptop |
Member: frances |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 6:51 am: Great picture, Kim! She's lovely, with a soft expression, and what a neat, capture-the-moment shot of all three of you. One for the album! |
Member: twhgait |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2007 - 10:32 pm: Thanks LL!! My mom loved them (she's still on the fence about Royal due to my past injuries, but she'll grow to like her soon enough). Royal does have a beautiful face! |
Member: octavius |
Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2007 - 4:44 pm: I would highly recommend Clinton Anderson's approach to training. If you can't attend a clinic (he's on a clinic tour right now) then order the DVDs. You will not be disappointed. Even if you send her to a trainer at some point she will come back home and you have to pick up where the trainer left off. You can check out his schedule at www.clintonandersen.net. Good luck!! |
Member: lhenning |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2007 - 12:19 pm: I'm happy for you Kim. Great work! Love the picture; she is a real beauty and worth the challenge.Linda P.S. I have a "Jacob" too that is also good with computers. |