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Discussion on Fiesty mare doesn't want to work | |
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Member: Megster |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 2:43 pm: My Cleveland Bay mare has thrown a lot of challenges at me over the year and a bit that I have owned her. She was successfully competed by her previous owner so being 'green' is not an excuse. She is 8 so her age shouldn't be an excuse either. I've had her checked out by a vet and found no problems. She is happy to hack about the countryside but as soon as I put her in the school she is willful and does not want to work. Her first trick last spring was to stop at intervals whilst schooling and leap around on the spot until she realised it wasn't working and would then carry on. Her next trick was to stop dead from trot or canter and slam her head between her knees, putting the rider on the floor. After going back to basics and persevering with this horse (and riding rather defensively) I got to the stage where we could have some fun during our schooling sessions and her attitude improved loads. However, I've just started schooling again this spring after keeping her ticking over through the winter and she's learned a new trick. Now, she will feel very on her toes, i ask her to trot and she cooperates for a few strides before speeding up. When I ask her to come back to a more sensible pace by using half halts she retaliates by looking for something to spook at, taking a couple of high speed steps forward combined with a little buck, then slams the brakes on, puts her head between her knees and then ducks out to the side. Its impossible for me to sit and I end up on the floor. Its also difficult to predict when she might do this.I feel that I've taken more steps backwards now than forwards and am facing a summer of pussyfooting around this horse (who is great in every other respect) in order to get back to the same point I was at last September. I've tried lungeing her before getting on her to get rid of any excess energy but this doesn't work. Even though she's tired, she's back on her toes as soon as I sit back on her. She's also not fed any hard feed, only roughage and has daily turnout. She has also recently become more fiery out on hacks and tends to overreact to spooky things. She is going on regumate for a different problem in a few days which may help the whole transitional hormone thing that I expect at this time of year but I know this won't help the schooling situation. My last resort is to send her away to be reschooled by an expert but would prefer to deal with this myself. Does anyone have any ideas or experiences that I could work with? |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 5:45 pm: Hi SarahHorses!! can live with them cannot live without them, your story took me back to a mare I had that was just like yours and now in hind sight it makes me laugh. My question would be, how well do you know the previous owner, was it a man? Was it lighter or heavier? More experienced?. I often found when I changed horses, that it was a lot easier to re-train myself rather than the horse, no matter how many experts rode my mare, it was until both of us had a trainer that things improved, in my humble opinion horse and rider have to trust one another. The way I see it she is having a lot of fun dumping you on the ground, the worst thing for you is to get mad at her however ending with your butt on the ground is not a lot of laughs is it? By the way where abouts in Derbyshire? |
Member: Warwick |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 6:22 pm: Hi SarahSounds like you have your hands full! Spring always makes our critters feel their oats (or lack of oats in your case!). She's still a fairly young mare and the hormonal urges can get pretty strong this time of the year. Having said that you still need to get a handle on her naughty behaviour. I'm assuming you've checked that all your tack fits her well and that her teeth are OK. And since the vet didn't find anything obviously physical, it sounds like you've got some schooling work to do. I've ridden a couple of mares like this in the past. One was a young mare with ovarian growths and we ended up spaying her which changed her attitude dramatically. The others changed their behaviour through basic schooling. If I was working this mare I would maintain her in a shoulder-fore position to allow more control over the inside shoulder and prevent her from stopping and bucking. You might have to exaggerate the bend somewhat at times to ensure that she cannot stop and buck on you. Working in shoulder-in for short amounts will also help. I would not ride this mare in straight lines as this makes it easier for her to evade you. Keep working on bending lines and circles with lots of changes of direction and bend. This will help not only to supple her but to maintain a more even rhythm and eliminate the rushing problem. In addition, it will keep her spooking down. Don't forget lots of verbal praise and stroke overs. Sounds like she needs to build confidence in herself in a positive way. If she is spooking more than usual when out hacking, I'd limit the hacks for the present time to cool outs after you've schooled her so that she learns to think of them as rewards. Once she becomes more solid and obedient in her arena work, then I'd slowly start to re-introduce the longer hacks. Good luck with her and keep us posted on how things progress. |
Member: Megster |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 7:14 pm: Thanks for your quick responses on this, they are very much appreciated. Liliana - we are in Etwall in Derby's. Do you know the area?Her previous owners, a man and a woman incidentally, were not much different in build to me and the lady who bred her and owned her for seven years was similar too. The man who owned her was a very experienced instructor so no doubt her knew exactly what to do with her. With her first owner, she took part in 'trailblazers' in the UK (showjumping) as a five year old and came in 11th out of 55 horses, so this horse does have the ability to work and it gives me some hope when I sit and watch the video. Her first owner wasn't overly experienced and is suprised at this behaviour as she tells me that Meg was never naughty in the school although she would get quite excitable at shows. She would have to drive her on in canter around and around the arena until she calmed down. Interestingly this change in behaviour is extreme as I can't canter her at all in the school at the moment never mind go to a show! We generally have to hack 5 mins down the road to use a school but on our yard we have a small paddock area where we can school, but its basically the equivalent of a 15 metre circle. She manages to pull her tricks in there and stop dead - even on this circle, when it suits. I have one last check to carry out on her healthwise with a chiropractor and plan to get her treated by a massage specialist as unfortunately she has a seizure pretty much once a month linked to her hormones - as she cycles all year round they go on throughout the year too. They tend to pull her body about a bit but I'm hoping that Regumate will stop these. Sue - out of interest, what were the symptoms of your mares ovarian growths? Meg's hormonal behaviour has changed from discussions I have had with her previous owners as I understand that whilst she could be a bit mareish she was never much trouble. Its very difficult to pinpoint why all of these things have happened in the last year but everything brings me back to the hormones. She tends to herd the other horses around the field which (the more I read) is a bit stallionish, possibly indicating an ovarian problem - although my vet doesn't believe this is likely. Sarah |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 7:25 pm: Sarah,I think it will be difficult for you to discipline and retrain a horse that can easily unseat you. There are a couple of things, however, that you can try. Most horses duck to one side only, usually to the left. They are more likely to do that when on the hand they dislike, ie circles to the right. And they usually do it on specific spots in the arena. In order to get unseated in such a fashion, your leg needs to slip backwards and your body to fold forward. Do not allow this to happen! Relax your efforts towards a classic position for a while. Ride with stirrups pressed a bit forward and your body leaning back. You have to feel as if you're lying on the horse. Don't worry, you'll be just behind the vertical when you have that feeling. Don't grip with your knees, or you'll create a pivot point, your leg will go backwards, your body forward and off the saddle you are. When she ducks, just lean far back, sit heavily in the saddle and step with all your might in the outside stirrup while you "hang" the inside leg straight and heavy to the ground. Do not pull on the outside rein to straighten her, it will not work and you may pull yourself out of balance and perhaps out of the saddle. If she bucks, same trick. Stirrups in front, body back, weight in the saddle, do not grip! To work her out of the habit of ducking, you have to "steer" her the whole time. Never assume she'll follow that straight line. Actively steer her to a specific spot. She can tell when you're not paying attention, and that's when she'll duck! |
Member: Megster |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 7:45 pm: Christos, your advice makes a lot of sense and i will try this approach back in the school tomorrow - perhaps after taking some rescue remedy for the old nerves. You are right that she does tend to duck out to the left but the brakes can go on very quickly in either direction. As we are mostly taught to ride classical english style here in the UK its sometimes difficult to sit so deep and lean that far back, particularly for example in rising trot. Whilst practicing this do you think that sitting trot might be more beneficial in order to make my position more secure. Since owning her I have definitely learned to ride more defensively with my lower leg forward - problem is that when she slams on the brakes, its done with such force and without any real warning that gravity tends to take over and i am thrown forwards, and hence my leg naturally falls back, closely followed by me falling off when she then quickly ducks out. I tend to be able to sit the ducking out episodes in isolation but combined with sudden brakes i find this really difficult (particularly because she tends to slam her head down too). I am sure probably a stronger, more experienced rider may sit this out but I guess thats exactly what I need to learn to do.Another thing I have pondered over is whether i am too quick to remove my leg from her side ie I'm not constantly pushing her on. Do you think I am therefore making it easier for her to stop and duck out? She rides like a naturally forward going horse (until she stops)so i never feel as though I need to put this pressure on, infact I have a tendency not to use my leg very much at all in the school as she can rush and I then have to do lots of half halts to bring her attention back. Do you think given this I should try and get her more infront of my leg by using my leg aids more? So many questions..... |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 8:17 pm: Amen Christos,Your welcome Sarah, Believe it or not this mare will be the best teacher you will ever have, I agree with Christos, forget about the classic seat for a while and concentrate on staying on and in time it will be fun rather than scary. But once you teach your body to stay on, wild broncos will not throw you! I lived in Spondon Derby for 10 years, my daughter was a memeber of Trent Pony Club so we went all over Derbyshire. Beautiful I have the best memories. I know Iīm coo coo, but, it works talking to her and really try to understand why is she un-cooperative with you. We had a herd of some 10 to 12 horses and ponys at the time and Patch was top mare and she was only 14ī2"hh bless her. She went to Redwings Sanctuary at her old age. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 8:26 pm: Hi Sarah,Wonderful advise from the above posts. It also makes me smile as my arab did all of the above and more. It takes a lot of work , but follow Christos advise and it will help keep you in the saddle. My horse fortunatly only got me off the first few weeks I owned him, I was told he never bucked, he was 30 days under sadddle. Silly me for being to relaxed. I was off in a second. I trained many youngsters years ago. none ever bucked or did anything because I was so confident of my abilitys. They new it. Years later after being away from them and having kids I actually got nervous. Boy do they pick up on that. so this bucking and attitude were new to me. He did the not moving, spooking, backing, you name it. He is a very smart arab. You have to be one step ahead. What does he do before he acts this way or bucks.Most horses will give you a cue or warning seconds before. Ears, tensness,etc. You have to pay attention to what happens before she has and attitude and change her thought patterns. Turn, back , circle, anything. Sing songs all the time to regulate your breathing they get worried if you are tense after all you are the leader. Why are you scared, must be a monster around the corner. If you are in a tense mood before you ride, just walk around do exersises at the walk untill you feel you are ready to do more If not stop riding on a happy note. If my horse is being crazy and I am tense I will just walk around. back, leg yeild etc. When I get off I think thats not so bad and cant wait for the next ride. If you push yourself and horse to when you are both not in the mood and its a bad ride, you will be tense and your next ride will be worse, there comes a pattern. Relax. Just my thoughts, Good luck, Katrina |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 8:42 pm: oh, one other thing I forgot to mention. Always have a plan before you ride. Think to yourself if I see a change in her behaviour that could lead to something, which rein will I use to get that head up, what can and will I do to prevent it. It empowers you as you know excactly what to do when the time arises. One more thought that works for me. Hope it helps.Katrina |
Member: Jjet |
Posted on Thursday, Feb 26, 2004 - 11:32 pm: Sarah, All the advice you hve been given is good in my opinion. I would only add that keeping her very busy with all sorts of tasks should help to prevent some of her mischief. As Sue G mentioned, exercises like the flexing movements such as shoulder fore and shoulder in is not only useful but it keeps her more focused. I would ride with a plan of several exercises to accomplish, but not easy, straight line work that allows her to have time to think about playing one of her tricks. |
Member: Megster |
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 6:10 am: Liliana, its a very small world. I lived in Spondon for the first 16 years of my life between 1975 and 1991, in a bungalow behind Gravelpit park (near borrowash road). I'm now nearly 30 so its going back some time. My now boyfriend lived on Locko Road at around the same time.Its really interesting to hear how different breeds behave. I guess Arab's are fairly renowned for being very sensitive. My friend has a welsh section D and he is a smart horse too with allsorts of tricks - his favourite is bronking violently on the spot or just going vertical. He is the opposite of my horse in that his tricks tend to come about when hacking rather than schooling when he is very good. I always thought Cleveland Bay's were known for their calm nature until I owned Meg. I did go to a breed display recently and saw another Cleveland mare being worked around the school. She had exactly the same attitude, movement, facial expressions, everything - except it was channeled in the right direction. You could really tell that she had the potential to be a handful. Maybe its in the breed, maybe the sex, who knows. I guess they are all individuals after all. Thanks for all of your advice anyway. It really is appreciated. Sarah |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 9:36 am: Sarah,It is difficult for me to suggest things that may contradict what your instructor says. However, some things are generally accepted principles, so I suppose we can mention them here. A correct classical position is the one that serves and reflects your current experience and ability. Attempting to immitate a certain posture is not classical, but torturous, frustrating and counterproductive. Sitting trot will certainly help, as far as your body stays way behind the vertical and your leg well in front. It is not only a more secure riding position, I am sure you will enormously appreciate how comfortably you can absorb the horse's movement. Watch rodeo riders, or anyone breaking colts. The moment the upper body goes in front of the vertical, the rider is off the horse. So, remember, the very splitsecond the horse goes funny, put your body back and relax! This is, of course, easier to say than to do. The reason is that in our walking life, when we lose our balance, we automatically grab with our hands for support, bend our knees and lean forward to lower our center of weight. Unfortunately, this well imprinted reflex does not help in the saddle. When you lose your balance in the saddle you should lean back, extend your knees and forget about grabbing with your hands, because, simply, there's nothing there to grab for support. This reflex is the reason people get scared when the horse puts its head down. It doesn't matter one bit for your balance, yet it terrifies you. Because, your reflex says, if things go wrong, I have now nothing to grab. Well, even if the neck stayed up, you shouldn't reach for it. First, because that'd mean your body came forward. Second, because if, let's say, you fix your fingers in the mane, you will transfer the horse's movement to your shoulders, neck and upper back. Very uncomfortable, and possibly harmful. The fact that she does not need constant leg to move her forward is a blessing here. You can keep your leg in front at all times! One very important point, I think, is that you do not see this as a battle. It is not a contest of who sits what out. It is just a perfect chance to imrove your seat, just another exercise. And though you will get the basic feeling immediately, it takes time to digest it as an automatic reflex. Work, Sarah, and sooner than you think you'll be saying "did she really buck? I didn't notice". |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 11:07 am: WOW! It really is a small world, I lived in Locko Park from 1989 to 1993!Itīs spooky but itīs true. I would love for you to write to my private mail bluebell@prodigy.net.mx} |
Member: Warwick |
Posted on Friday, Feb 27, 2004 - 12:53 pm: Hi SarahThe mare I had with the ovarian growths was quite a puzzle from the get-go. I bought her as a rather underweight 3 year old and left her until she was a solid 4 year old before starting any proper work. She was an alpha mare and extremely sensitive and protective of her body. (I had a chiropractor tell me once that "she'll be a great mare if she doesn't kill you first!") This mare cycled strongly 12 months out of the year and each cycle was accompanied with a colic. I spoke to several different vets about her and they were all stumped as to what was going on. I asked them all if the colics could be caused by cyclical cramping that similar to those that women suffer. They all dismissed this immediately as being quite a ridiculous suggestion. This mare was extemely sensitive to ride and would throw fits at the slightest thing. She was an accomplished bucker and would hit the brakes at the DrOp of a hat. She was very resistant to acceptance of any leg pressure - be it passive or active and tended to rush in everything she did. She would also "throw" herself on the ground during her cycles. I decided to have her spayed because I was quite convinced that her problems were directly related to abnormalities in her reproductive system and took her to two well known equine surgical specialists who not only didn't pooh-pooh my theory of a cyclical connection but agreed with it. She underwent surgery and her ovaries were removed. They turned out to be abnormal. Both had large growths and were extraordinarily oversized. Her cyclical colic episodes stopped after the procedure and she became a much more manageable horse under saddle. Of course she remained a dominant mare but her level of acceptance changed noticeably. I trained her in dressage up to 4th level and then sold her. Her new owners use her as a jumper and she is doing well. |
Member: Megster |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2004 - 1:29 pm: I wanted to give you all a quick update after heeding all of the advice you gave, finding some courage and getting stuck in with some schooling today.I have today ridden my mare on a very loose rein and gave up working so hard at trying to get her to work 'on the bit' as I've been taught all my life. I pretended the reins weren't there at all, carried my hands independantly and concentrated on my seat. Christos - i took your advice about my position (sit deep and back, legs forward) and other than sending the odd vibration down the reins when she lost concentration, I worked more with my legs, seat and voice and left her head alone. I was suprised how she naturally carried herself without me insisting on it with my hands and I was even able to canter her on a small circle which, believe me, is a real achievement. She worked long and low and was really relaxed by the end of the session. I used lots of changes of direction within the circle which really kept her attention. I'm on cloud nine and have regained some faith in her as well as realising how much I was using my hands to balance myself. I felt very secure in the saddle today and as a result, much more confident and relaxed and actually enjoyed myself. So, I just wanted to say thanks for all of you who posted advice. I'm sure she won't always be as perfect as today but at least I know the potential is there and how to move forwards with this. Sarah |
Member: Jerre |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2004 - 1:49 pm: Sarah, how wonderful! You BOTH must be so happy!That whole "getting off your hands" thing can be huge. My entire riding education was how to have "good hands" and riding on contact. When I decided to bring my very young horse along, I chose the Parelli home-study program. PNH keeps horse and rider in a hackamore for quite a while, and on a long, relaxed rein. Man was it hard for someone grounded in dressage to go for so long on a long rein -- using it only after asking for gait and direction changes with the body. I couldn't believe what a struggle it was. But when I recently tried the bit for a few days, I was amazed at the difference in the independence of my seat from my hands (and I thought I'd been pretty well schooled ) I've moved another step closer to understanding how to use the reins for communication, and not control. And we're having so much fun!! |
Member: Jjet |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2004 - 2:44 pm: You are making the great progress by listening to your instincts as well as to advice! In western "reining" the horse is taught to carry itself without being on the bit much at all. The method is to work off seat and leg without rein pressure or pulling on the bit. The bit pressure is only a backup, hopefully, rarely, if ever used. Of course there are many steps along the way to achieve this goal. Funny how it is called reining, when, if you actually do a lot of reining you are definitely not competitive! It sounds like your mare may prefer an approach more like this. She probably resents the bit pressure enormously, you'll need to be extremely careful if you decide to get her back on the bit. I'd definitely give her a bit of a rest from overuse of it until she learns to enjoy your rides more and learns to accept your direction willingly. Good luck! Keep us up-dated! |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Saturday, Feb 28, 2004 - 5:18 pm: Now that is classical riding, Sarah!Harmony, natural balance, enjoyment for you and your horse. "Correct" posture will naturally develop by itself over time, for you and your horse, you need not worry about it. Enjoy your rides, my friend, and be sure that great things are waiting for you down your trail. |