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Discussion on Bolting under saddle 3 yr old | |
Author | Message |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 2004 - 1:54 pm: Hello allThought I would throw this out there for some advice. I read through other threads on whoa problems but most were on older horses with some unknown history. This colt is 3 years old, stud colt, Arabian, I bred him and his mother and own his grandmother and other relatives. Pretty mellow group and all are performance horses. We started him slow earlier this year in Feb. Things were going quite well, he is quiet and actually a little lazy, until they moved in the cattle. The ranch owner put the cattle next to the arena behind wood so no one can see them and the cows can't see out.(cutting horse stuff) I think this colt will run when scared anyway, but the cattle were escalating him and he started full speed ahead a few times with my husband. At this stage being so green getting him stopped took a few laps. A friend who has trained horses for years suggested getting him out of that arena and to a new area. He has been more relaxed in a different arena. We are following the same regimen daily,(5 days a week) First longe in the bullpen bitted lightly working on control with body language and word commands, I know attention span is short in 3 yr olds plus the complication of being a stud colt. He is quite nice, excellent mover and good to be around so we are not cutting him. these are things we have done so far: 1) getting him soft in his mouth and poll 2) one handed stop.asking to come to your knee quietly and stop his feet. 3) Riding to a fence in the bigger arena and quietly stopping and backing. If he doesn't want to do either a little more forceful. The things that tend to trigger the running are usually scary stuff, joggers on the trail next to the arena making crackling noises in the dead leaves, cars going buy, kids on scooters. But it has seemed to venture into a game now, it could be the horse down in the barn on walk with his owner, His attention goes, head goes up and boom, wants to run. My husband is not afraid so I don't think he is escalating this. Yesterday, the colt got a little hyper. We worked him in a circle at canter till he settled asking inside rein to relax, when he wanted to break to trot and was bracing on the rein we asked him to keep cantering till quiet and supple, then let him stop. This got some of the POOP out of him and we finished on a good note. We only lightly longe him before because of his age and also I believe you can get a horse more and more fit and pretty soon you have to longe an hour, at some point they have to learn under saddle what is expected. ) I don't have anything against longing I just don't believe in the theory of longing till they are out of air then get on.. I think we are on the right track because the incidents are less often and he hasn't succeeded in running. Appreciate any insights and suggestions on the above, as I said we know working with a stallion is a bigger project but I think he is worth it. |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 2004 - 7:33 pm: Are you using some sort of martingale so he cant get his head up and keep it up. My mare scoots forward. I wouldn't call it a bolt because she stops after 4 or 5 strides, but I have a lot easier time getting her back when she is wearing a german martingale. I imagine a running or standing martingale could be helpful as well.Ella |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 2004 - 8:15 pm: EllaWe are using a running martingale adjusted normal with a straight line to his mouth when his head is in a normal position. It does help, I like the german martingales too but he's a little green and he actually gives vertically quite nice. My husband said his ride today was pretty good, the lateral give exercise helped especially catching him right as he gets his head up to look around for something to get puffy about. He even made it through the tractor going by. Progress |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 2004 - 8:23 pm: Hello Debbie,I don't see in your post that you did any 'spook' training with this colt. And his reaction to scary stuff seems to confirm that. He is exhibiting classic horsey reasoning, 'when in doubt get the hell out of dodge!' The process of teaching a horse how to handle scary stuff or situations is complex and time consuming. The basics are to setup a scary situation at a distance the horse is comfortable with, then decrease the distance until you observe tension. Go no further, wait until the horse shows the first signs of relaxing, then remove the scary object. Here is the simplest form of the this exercise I use. Do this in a large round pen or a small arena the horse can't escape from. Tie a plastic grocery bag to a stick 3-4 feet long. Have the horse on 20-30 feet (hopefully, longer if needed) of rope (preferably with a rope halter). Face the horse, wave the stick back and forth fast with force and a steady rhythm, and back away from the horse encouraging them to follow. Most horses find a object that moves away from them as they approach much less threatening. As soon as he tries to follow stop waving the bag. Then do it until he will follow relaxed with the bag waved right over his head. Another very important rule is “Never make the horse feel trapped!”, if the horse needs to run away let him go. Use the rope to encourage them to turn back into the object and don't forget to back away from them when they turn. Once he is comfortable following the object start working on each side and ask him to stand still. Find a distance he is comfortable and slowly work closer. Then find different objects to work with, umbrellas work good and empty grain sacks. Once the horse can stand all this on a rope and halter I then start it all over tied. Initially tied to a rig that will slip, then tied hard. I think this is one of the more time consuming parts of starting a colt but one of the most valuable down the road. This is much easier to demonstrate than to describe. Feel free to email me or call and I can go into more detail. I can also refer you to the trainer in CA that taught me if your in So. CA. Clinton Anderson has some excellent videos on this subject also. But it does work, I have a Fox Trotter mare that would literally spook at her tail in the wind. Now I can ride her with a 20x40 canvas tarp over her butt and dragging behind with little concern. Good day, Alden |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 8:16 am: Debbie,Alden's advice is great. I too would recommend what he's saying as well as watching some Clinton Anderson videos if you can get your hands on some. I have a 15 yr old Arab mare who I've had since she was 2, and we never did the "de-spooking" part thoroughly. Riding her is always an adventure. So I am working with her in the manner Alden has suggested and seen lots of improvement. (getting wiser in my old age, grin) Make it your goal to show him one scary thing at a time til he's secure with that, then introduce something else. I find lots of walks with young ones is great. We meet all kinds of scary stuff, they sniff it, walk around it, walk over it. Back home, we walk over tarps, plastic, and by the clothes line with laundry on it. Take your time, it may save your neck from a wreck someday. If you don't do this de-spooking training, you may make the same mistake I did and go to a harsher bit. Hey, to save my neck of course!! Now I am back to a snaffle, no martingale. Btw Alden, I got a good laugh at your description of your mare spooking at her tail in the wind; my mare would do the same. Then of course jump cuz she scared herself more moving!!! Best of luck with your guy, Angie |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 2:36 pm: Hi, Debbie,What exactly are you feeding this young boy? Can a couple of lbs less concentrate be the answer to your problem? Would 1-2 lbs less concentrate really change his condition? |
Member: Liliana |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 4:19 pm: Hello there,It seems a real shame to ruin a young horse’s mouth with gadgets that were created precisely to counteract bad early training as in Angie’s 15 yo mare.No disrespect intended please! We used to pre- train youngsters for Police work and it is very much what Alden mentions, of course re-adjusting the feed is an excellent point. Ground work is in my opinion the most effective way. Once you have taught the horse to walk trot and canter to the voice on the lunge, virtually to the point that is almost automatic to them, you could even use trotting poles to teach the horse to balance and pick his feed (a bit like a model on the catwalk) then one can start training under saddle. At Pony Club a lot of work goes into getting the horses used to any scary situation and really it all comes down to ground work, voice commands to start off and the results are a confident horse who will be a pleasure to ride, needles to say you will avoid, injuries to the horse and to yourself. Prevention is better than cure Love your horses Liliana Hi there, |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 5:04 pm: Hi all,Christos, he gets no real grain concentrate. I have easy keepers so I feed a supplement designed to give all the vits and Minerals in 2 # a day. Triple Crown in the manufacturer and Lite is the product. Other than that he is on 4 # alfalfa a day and the rest of his roughage in orchard grass. He does not have a lot of big free turnout do to the current circumstances. But he has a paddock, not stall bound. Like I said he is a fairly quiet horse. This started with the cattle but as Alden suggested we tried to work him at the other end of the arena from the cattle but at some point we worked him closer and closer but it kept escalating. This, in hindsight, was probably a mistake but we did FORCE him to work closer and closer to the scary cattle (that he can't see) then other things became the boogy man. Alden, this colt will carry plastic bags in his mouth around the pen and throw and chase them. He walks on wood bridges on the trail course and small ditches with blue tarps in them all without training him, he just didn't care. I know what you are saying and he may need even more such situations to be exposed too. If they were my cattle I would do some exposure there but they are not. I am thinking he lost some confidence and combined with his age and stud colt status it spiraled to this running thing when the opportunity arises. We want to erradicate this behavior before it becomes habit. He is very smart and sensitive, a good sensitive, he understands being shown one or two times. Of course, this works the other way too, if you screw up once or twice they remember that too, like getting after him in the cattle pen. The arena we are working in now is a scary arena too but it's what we have to work with. Many older horses at this facility have issues up there, it is removed from the main boarding area but more exposed to traffic, joggers, golfers etc. I will definetely look into the Clinton Anderson stuff. What do you think of the parelli games in moderation? His site was actually where I found a good article on whoa stuff, like teaching the one rein stop at all gaits when the horse is calm. This is proving very effective for him. I have seen some novices doing Parelli but they drill and nit pick these horses for hours at a time, most stallions would come unglued. It is hard to find articles on stallions, although they are horses like the rest they are a little different, maybe alot different. Do you all have opinions or experience working with young colts and their training issues. Someone on this website said that stallions are like any other horse, just more, more of everything. I remember that when I work with him. Another article said they are one track mind breeding machines and we have to deal with that mindset when we work with them. Comments welcome! |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 7:08 pm: Debbie,My only exposure to Pat Parelli was from his show on RFDTV, the problem I had was it was all showmanship and no information. Clinton Anderson on the other hand has a RFDTV show also and it is packed with useful information. You will appreciate that he uses untrained horses for his videos and many of them are stud colts. The problem with your colt playing with plastic bags is he is in control. How does he handle those bags if you wave them at him, or try and rub his face with one? I've know people to litter a horse's paddock with junk thinking they were spook training the horse, but it didn't seem very effective to me. Specially with stallions, he needs to understand that yes that object is scary, but it is in my hands and won't hurt him. In other words, I'm working to teach a horse that I make it safe, whether I'm on them or on the ground. I know of two stallions, one Arab, one Quarter, that have been through this type of training. The Arab will let me stand behind him, in his blind spot and flap that bag all over him and never flinch. The Quarter horse allows his owner to sit on his hock while he shoes the other foot! One other thing to remember is stallions in general are very good judges of character. Both of these stallions will reject certain people and total ignore them and with other folks they are as gentle as any gelding. So another good rule is, if you had a bad day at work that is not a good day to train horses; specially stallions. Go pet the dog or something. Good day, Aldn |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 2004 - 7:28 pm: AldenWe did the in hand earlier in his life but I will re-check to make sure he is still good with that. The plastic in the pen was an accident acutally, he was a week old and we were putting shavings down, we laid the bag down too and away he went with it. It became a fun thing for him then and DrOve our gelding nuts ( he did not get early scare training). We also rubbed and threw it over him in hand, and with anything else we could think of. Our new baby does the plastic thing too, and I only disagree that there is no crossover if they do or we do it. But I agree we should do both. Horses that live in pastures with streams usually learn that streams are ok regardless if I told them so. Just my experience anyway. You are right, stallions know who you are!! and they are always re-evaluating. I don't ever take him for granted. Thanks for the input! Debbie |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 10:13 am: Thats great Debbie, you have a good start on him. Just find something else that will challenge him and then let him work through the challenge.I have a three year old that was gelded last year and his is familiar with creeks in his pasture. We had him in the Cimarron area last weekend, his first time camping and riding in the mountains. At first he just reacted to the creeks and was jumping every time. By the second day you could see the gears turning and he was starting to think rather than react, and that is key. The third day he was totally thinking and not reacting to the water, and walking calmly through the creeks. That is the ultimate goal to this spook training, get them to think before reacting. When a horse bolts it is all reaction, no thinking. It is time consuming, but at the same time a lot of fun when a horse starts coming together. When we worked the horses on cows we set it up carefully, using just one calf in a small arena. Then starting at opposite sides of the arena you just follow the calf. When the calf moves the horse moves, calf stops horse stops. Do this for weeks before you try and cut a cow. You really need calves that are fresh and afraid of the horse, one that walks up to the horse isn't a good thing. Remember with a bag I would walk away from the horse and to the horse it appears the bag is moving away because of him. The same thing is true with a cow. The trainer I was working with said that in the beginning if a cow ever pushed the horse away, before the horse learned it could push the cow, the horse would never be any good on cows. We never let that happen so I don't know first hand, but then he has been training cow horses (ranch horses) for over 60 years. Besides, I liked his approach and my horses became confident in being able to move a calf. Good day, Alden |
Member: Sunny66 |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 10:31 am: Oh yes Alden, great point --- I have my horse "herd" deer, birds, my dog ( ...whatever....he calms right down. |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Wednesday, Sep 22, 2004 - 2:03 pm: Alden and Aileen,I love the cow stuff, as I said the owner of the cattle would not let us use any cow right now as they are so expensive here to keep, he turns them every month or so to keep fresh for his young cutters. But, I used to start all his young one's on cattle years ago and what a blast. Doing what you said Alden, trailing them and getting them confident, then they learn to stop and go with them, then eventually going in the herd and moving them around. I also did most of the turnback then. The exciting thing is we may be moving in the next few months to our friends cattle ranch. I will have turnout and cattle, buffalo, llamas, swans, geese, etc. and it is in the national forest with trail system etc. They started a operation there and we will be helping move cattle, find cattle, and calving and all that good stuff. Max, the colt, will have an opportunity to be a horse and have a job. Glad they don't have brahma crosses, they will turn on your horse and jump fences in a heart beat. In So. Calif most of us don't have a lot of opportunity for the above activities. It is a beautiful ranch. Now if I just didn't have to go to regular work! Thanks for the advice, and talk to you soon. |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Saturday, Sep 25, 2004 - 3:57 am: I think "herding" bold dogs that jump out at you on the road is excellent for horse's confidence. Gives the dogs pause for thought too...The cattle thing here (where they are all loose in fields running around) is usually that young horses get freaked when they move as a herd, especially a bunch of excitable calves. I have noticed that if cattle break into horse's pasture or vice versa, silly thoroughbreds will run away, allowing the cattle to herd them, while draught or half bred horses will usually herd the cattle - maybe arabs are like TBs on this? Here we fix bad cattle phobia by putting the horse into graze with the cattle. But at the risk of losing their tails because some cattle just seem to love eating horse's tails... Imogen |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Monday, Sep 27, 2004 - 1:02 pm: Hi ImogenHe will herd bold dogs that jump in his pen they better watch out! But, I think the big issue with the cattle was being behind 6 foot solid panels where the horse cannot see them. We were in the arena yesterday riding the colt and our gelding who is cattle savvy, the colt was much better because his confidence is better. But, all he can see is the big fence with smelly moving critters behind itm, so his nervous level started to go up the longer we were there. We led him up with our gelding who has seen cattle and loves em. So they stood at the fence looking through a little hole together, it was very amusing. At least he didn't do a 180 and try to run. At the ranch we can introduce him properly, turning him in an arena where cattle are in adjacent pasture, but not on top of him. Don't want to give him ulcers. I have also seen where horses totally used to cattle in the arena, like cutting or penning, will see them in their natural setting in the mountains and freak out. After he settles some in the new place we can ride him on one quiet cow in a big arena so he can learn that he has the power to move it and not vice versa. The whole cow issue unfortunately clued the colt in on the "flight" method of avoidance when things are scary, but with patience and time he is getting much better. We haven't dealt with this behavior before so it is a learning experience for us and the horse. At least now when he jumps and attempts to head for the hills, he is stoppable within a few feet. Thanks for the input. |