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Discussion on Newly orphaned filly | |
Author | Message |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 12:51 am: This weekend was just tough..We got up Saturday morning only to find one of our mares dead. She didn't appear to struggle at all. Her baby was asleep next to her and had already milked her out. I am feeding two older brood mares, and I try to keep hay in front of them. I had fed the mares at 3:00 in the afternoon as I knew I would miss their evening feeding. When we got home I fed them again at 1:00 AM. At one in the morning she greeted me at the gate and was very happy for her hay. It was almost untouched the next morning.She had had a nice filly just 12 days earlier and I had them penned while the filly's leg's strengthened. We live quite far from town and we quickly called a friend to go to the feed store and bring us some foal lac. We had no luck at all feeding her with a bottle, but she took right to the bucket. Following the directions for Foal Lac I have fed her every three hours since her mother died. Of course the filly seemed in distress and I was very happy to see her eating with so much vigor. I have increased her milk intake quite a bit as she is emptying her bucket before the three hours is up. All seemed to be going well. Before her mother died we had been sneaking pets and tail scratchings and she was becoming less timid with us in her pen. When I would be in cleaning she would sneak up on me and push her face against my back. She was curious and I felt like I was making good use of her time in the pen and planned on haltering her later this week. Over all I would say my horses have a good respect for me. I spend a lot of time with them and we have quite a few. I have never raised and orphan foal!!! Just two days after her mother died she is trying very hard and almost successfully to kick me. Tonight when I began to open the panel gate with her bucket of foal lac in hand she spun and quickly kicked so close to my face twice. I quickly shut the gate and she kicked it. I have to say I don't know if I've ever felt so out of time or so surprised. I have worked with horses all my life and thank goodness I've never been kicked. I think tonight I was just lucky as I sure wasn't ready for that. I would be grateful to hear some encouraging words and or experiences. Both the mare and the stud are two of the nicest and peaceful horses I've ever had. Reading some older posts about unruly foals I noticed John Lyons' name mentioned on a book about raising orphan foals. Does anyone have feed back on this book? Right now I'm tired and feeling so sad as well as unsure of how to proceed with this filly. I certainly don't want to raise an unsafe horse. I would like to offer her a better deal. Any Ideas????? Post any time...I will be up every three hours!! Looking forward to advice, Marcia |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 1:54 am: Hi Marcia, I'm so sorry about your mare; how terrible! Do you have any idea what caused he death?I have raised an orphan and it was a lot of work, but rewarding. I suspect your filly is mad at you because she is eating on her normal time-table. Foals, as you probably know, eat a little at a time very frequently, especially when they are so young. You might try feeding her more at a time and see if that helps. Or, you might try some of the Foal-lac pellets left in a shallow pan for her to nibble on in between feedings and a little soft hay for her to amuse herself with. Do you have an older mare that could "baby-sit" her? Even if you still have to feed her, sometimes an older mare, preferable an old broodmare used to foals, is excellent at keepting the foal company and teaching it "foal manners." Sometimes a goat or miniature burro will fill in if you don't have a mare. If you don't have a "mom substitute" you will have to learn how to discipline your filly like her mother would do. Of course, another thought, if the filly is all alone, she may be excited when you come in the stall and want to play. She doesn't know any other way to play than like she would with another foal or her dam. I've heard the John Lyon's book is good, but I haven't read it myself. I think there is a thread on HA from some time ago about raising orphans,and an article to read here also. Good luck with your little filly. |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 3:22 am: Hi Sara,Thanks for the encouragement. I just came in from feeding her and I used a training stick to keep her at a distance. It felt safe, but lacked warmth. I increased her milk this past afternoon, but from what I've read it sounds like a healthy foal won't over eat, so I could increase it more. She has a bit of hay, but I do need to get some Foal-Lac pellets. I don't know if our small town feed store will have any in stock, so it may take me a few days to get it here. Tomorrow we are going to pick up a goat. I have a few mares here, but I'm not sure of one that would fit the ticket. Her mother would have been the one I would have chosen to baby sit an orphan. Right now I have another mare in the pen next to hers. This mare also has a colt, and does not want another! The other two mares that would be good also each have a job. The one is the lead mare for the brood mares although I did not breed her back in 2007. She is a no nonsense mare, that leads with firmness, but never bites or kicks. My other older mare is taking care of the one and two year olds. When you raised yours, did you keep her in the pen till she was weaned? For my orphan it seems like a double raw deal that she can't get out in the pasture with the mare band. I hadn't thought about the fact that she might have been just playing and happy. I know it is silly, but my feelings felt hurt when she was so close to kicking me. It was quite dark out and I couldn't see her face and body language as it was happening. No I really won't ever know why her mother died, but I did talk to my friend who is also our horse vet. She suggested heart failure or an aneurysm. She was just 18 and such a nice mare. We were thinking that this was going to be here last colt. Well I'm off to bed. My husband is taking the 3:30 feeding so I can sleep a few hours in a row. I'll keep you posted. Good night |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 7:35 am: Hope you got some sleep, what a horrible situation losing a mare just like that and a foal without a mother I really feel for the both of you.Could well be he is starting to feel strong and had waited for his 'dinner'. I often see my foal kicking at his mother if he wants to play or drink. And you must have been tired and still shocked which aggravated the experience for you. Hope the goat helps and if anything would allow him to be with other horses as soon as possible [babysit of whatever sort]it will make his life better and yours easier. Good luck. Jos |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 9:34 am: Sorry to hear about losing your mare. You are lucky in one aspect that the foal did get the important first nursings. I raised an orphan colt 14 years ago due to my mare not wanting anything to do with motherhood! I was breast feeding our daughter at the time, so it was interesting to say the least! Baby would wake up for a feeding in the house, hubby would stumble to the kitchen to make warm Foal Lac. So the colts schedule was whenever our daughter woke up for her feeding time.He also took to the bucket immediately and would come running as soon as he saw one of us coming. He never got unruly though. I was fortunate to have another mare who foaled 2 weeks later. If I held her she would let him nurse also but we choose not to pursue that. But he did have a playmate and the mare was not mean to him when he was near her. The only horse mean to him was his mother; for months she would flatten her ears and chase him away. Definately get him a playmate and some interesting things to explore in a safe environment. I'd be anxious to let him out with the band of mares so he can run. I am betting it won't be long until he plays with the one and two year olds. Do you think one of the younger ones would be safe just with him if the mares are too aggressive? That might work. Would love to see a picture! You'll have a special relationship with this one. Take care and get sleep when you can. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 9:50 am: Our foal was a month pre-mature and was totally rejected by his dam, who never had any milk. The colt had to have a plasma transfusion to get antibodies. Because he was so small, I slept with him on an old horse blanket in my office for the first week and he got fed a few sips every 20 mins or so. I fed him with a syringe at first, but he quickly moved to a human baby bottle, then a regular bottle with a lamb nipple. It was a couple of weeks before he could drink out of a bucket.After a week we built a small pen out of stray bales (in my barn office) and kept him there until he was strong enough to move into a stall that had a heater in it. (He was born in mid-winter and we lived where it got really cold.) When one of our sweetest mares had a foal we tried putting him in with her and her foal. At first we divided the stall with snow fencing so he could be near the mare and her new foal. Then we let them in together under our watchful eyes. The mare, Isis, was a doll and had enough milk for three foals. He stayed in with her and her foal until the other foal got too pushy for the premmie and we were afraid he was going to get hurt. Then we borrowed a mini-burro from a friend who became the foals "mother" until he was almost a year old. We continued to supplement his nursing with foal-lac, then the foal-lac pellets, and as soon as he was old enough the foal-lac mixed with a little creep feed. He was such a tiny guy! The most difficult part of raising him was teaching him that we weren't horses and needed to be treated differently. He was so cute and so attached to us it was very hard to discipline him, but it had to be done. He would not only try and kick, but would rear up and try to "mount" us like a foal will other foals or his dam. Cute, but dangerous. If you drink coffee, get used to living on it! If you don't drink coffee, I highly recommend Red Bull. You won't be getting much sleep for a few weeks, but it will be worth it! |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 10:10 am: Thank you all so much for the kind words of encouragement as well as a lot of good information. Just a short note as we are off to find our new goat friend. I'll let you all know how it goes. My husband had the 3:30 feeding this morning and he spend quite some time stroking her. Annie(so original) seemed much calmer this morning. I let a 2 month old colt in with her for a bit. She nursed him.... I only had a little time so I had to take him out. I would sure like it if Annie could run with Truman and his mother, Gemini. It seems like last year Gemini let another foal hang with her and her 2007 baby quite a bit. I don't think she will let Annie nurse unless she sneaks it, but perhaps she could at least baby sit. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again!!! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 10:27 am: My condolences Marcia,This is normal behavior for a foal and could represent either play or aggravation. You see foals kick their mothers and depending of the mares attitude at that moment you see everything from it ignored to the mare kicking the foal. We recommend you discourage the behavior and you will find more on this at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses. DrO |
Member: morg1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 2:08 pm: Hi Marcia,I had a colt last year that was rejected by his dam. He spent so much time learning to avoid his mom that he was really good at reading body language, so teaching him manners and to respect my space was easy. I put him with a mare and colt when he was about 5 weeks old. If the mare hadn't foaled so late I would have put them together earlier(her foal was about 2 weeks old at the time I put them together). At first, she didn't want him anywhere near her baby, but eventually she allowed the colts to be together and it wasn't long when I added another barren mare to the group. Everybody got along great and it was good experience for the colt. I would walk out to the pasture and the colt would come running for his bottle (or later his feed). Unlike most of you I never did have much luck getting him to drink milk from a bucket. I also think that she was either playing or rather upset that she couldn't eat when she wanted too, and might have decided to take it out on you. I've seen the foals kick at their mom when mom wouldn't stop when they wanted a meal. Like DrO says it is normal, but it is up to you to let her know that it is not acceptable. Good luck, and I'm sorry about your mare. Karen |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 2:20 pm: Hi Marcia,I am so sorry to hear about your mare. Three years ago I had a foal that was rejected by her mother. I also had no success with a bottle but she drank out of a bowl. I did have the grandmother who was desperate to adopt her granddaughter and at 31 yrs.old actually nursed her! That mare, Sweetheart, had not had a foal for 17 yrs and we did not even give her an injection to stimulate milk production. We continued to give the foal, Sea Dancer, milk replacer because I was unsure of the quantity and quality of Sweetheart's milk. After 6 months she was still nursing her and we had to use an ez wean halter. You might try placing the foal in a play pen lined with plywood out where the mares can visit her. Then see if any of them comes over and stays by her. Also you could put up notices asking if anyone has a mare who loves babies like my old Sweetheart, who has since passed away. If I had known about any orphans I might have offered her as a foster mom because she had previously shown that she loved to mother. Years before she had been penned next to a mare and her foal and she spent all day next to the fence hanging out with the foal. Good Luck with your foal, by the way have you named Her? Cynthia |
New Member: peg329 |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 15, 2008 - 2:34 pm: Hi Marcia..I am SO sorry about your mare! We ALMOST lost ours to metritis just after our colt was born; and just last year lost her precious filly at 3 weeks from intestinal torsion. It broke my heart! To answer your questions, we are now RAISING NURSE MARE FOALS! So, we have fresh experience in all of this, and hot off the press VET RECOMMENDATIONS as to what to do! FIRST, and FOREMOST, get them OFF of MARES MILK PLUS or FOAL LAC, right away, and start them on regular feeding of Mare & Foal Feed. ( I know, it sounded totally foreign to me, too!) If she gets foal diahrea, give her plain vanilla yogurt...and if that doesn't work Gastro Guard. My vet said that getting them OFF the fake milk is THE most important part of making them better disciplined! Stay in the paddock with her an hour, or so each day, just with a chair and your book and a crop with a FLAP on the end. If she starts to BITE or KICK, pop her GOOD, while STANDING UP; then sit back down. If she comes to you, love and rub on her muzzle, legs, withers, ears, etc...telling her good girl!! That allows her to get to know you, then as you STAND UP to discipline her, she respects you are bigger than she is. This has worked in less than a week with my new colt!! Then finally, put the filly in the pasture with the MARES and their foals! They will all bond, and teach her how to behave like a horse. It's taking time for my TWO nurse mare foals to bond with the rest of the mares; but they're coming around slowly but surely! Hope that helps!! Peg |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 3:12 am: Thank you for all your kind words! We were gone all day, but did find a very nice nanny to put in with Annie. She seems so much more calm tonight. I don't know if it has to do with the goat or just that I got after her for kicking. She and the goat haven't seemed to connect yet... Yikes I just read all the posts about horses killing goats. This a very gentle goat. I hope all goes well. Annie is eating well and I have upped her servings to 3 pints every 3 hours. I'll be gone all day again tomorrow. Our youngest and only daughter is turning 18 and I'm taking her and her friends to the city for movie day. My husband is staying home with the foal. I'll write more about Annie on Thursday. I have been really interested in what you all have had to say. I'm going to do research on all the options. As with all things it looks like there is more than one way to skin this cat.Thanks again for sharing your experiences with me. Marcia |
Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 7:35 am: Marcia,My condolances on the loss of your mare. Wishing you the best of luck in bringing up baby! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 16, 2008 - 5:39 pm: We have used Foal-Lac milk and pellets successfully raising foals and do not believe it has an effect on discipline problems. Yes diarrhea can occur with changes in feed but I would not abruptly stop feeding milk but instead introduce them to solid feed overtime. It is true that foals can be weaned as early as 2 weeks age but we still recommend a milk replacer pellet. For more on this see, Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Feeding and Caring for the Orphan Foal.DrO |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 17, 2008 - 12:43 pm: Hi Marcia,On the subject of foster mares, at the time this happened my husband was talking to a co-worker who had a ranch. He told my husband that he had had mares who would steal foals away if they didn't have one of their own, so they are out there. I have also used plain yogurt for diarrhea, I mixed it into her milk. I am looking forward to seeing pictures of Annie. I am sure that the goat will be fine with her since she is so young but if you put the foal out with the other mares you might be careful. Cynthia |
New Member: twinsscs |
Posted on Friday, Jul 18, 2008 - 1:15 pm: Hi Marcia,Earlier this month we found our beloved mare dead in the barn and her foal running around with my 3 year old.She had ruptured a uterine artery. He was 3 weeks early, healthy as can be/needless to say within my sadness and grief of losing his mommy/ our neighbors had a 25 year old mare that loves to steal babies away. We brought him down to her and she took him on as her own. We started bottle feeding/ 1/2 mare formula/1/2 goats milk around the clock until she produced her own milk. Now we have them both home with us and she has milk/ we are still supplementing with 2 bottles per day. I can see that changing as he is eating along side of her and nursing quite well.My thoughts are with you/ this has been devastating to me. |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 12:37 pm: Good Morning,I was just feeling what a difference a week can make in our lives. Last week we were exhausted, in shock and I would say more than a little scared. I've taken care of more than one high risk, infant and felt much more confident than I felt taking care of this foal. Annie has settled down quite a bit, and drinks very well out of a bucket. She is enjoying being stroked over most of her body. Although I am still watching out for those little sharp hooves she has not tried to kick me again. I've gotten into the rhythm of getting up in the night, and have even found myself enjoying the beauty of the moon and the stillness of the wee hours. We have finished up with our large brandings this past week so my husband is able to help out more with her. We have done a few things that I wished we hadn't such as buying a bunch of goats that were not quite what we needed because it was such a sweet man wanting to sell them to us. We did end up with one goat that is perfect, but she was costly. We live in a very remote place and goats don't live long out here so I've been keeping the extra goats in the chicken pen for the time being. We have an old mare I could put in with Annie, but then I'm not sure how well the one and two year olds would fare without her leadership. I have 7 running with her in a 700 acre pasture and she gives them quite a little bit of confidence. I have an old gelding I could use to take her place, or for that matter go in with Annie, but he has been exposed to pigeon fever so even though he doesn't have it I'm not sure if he could pass it on. I am going to begin offering Annie Foal-Lac pellets and a foal feed today. I am still trying to figure out how I'm going to do this without Frannie, Annie's Nanny getting into the feed. Peggy I've appreciated your advice as well as others on discipling and boundaries. What is so easy and natural to do with an older horse felt difficult to do with such a confused, tiny baby. I just need some reminding. We don't often handle our colts so early as they are born in quite a large pasture. And although the mares come in twice a day for a wee bit of grain just so I can look them over I don't work with the foals much till they are two months old unless I need to earlier on account of illness or an injury. I am grateful to have gotten one last baby from Lace. Lace was a sweet mare and was from some wonderful foundation bloodlines. She was a dun and this last baby is also a dun. I can't say thanks enough to all of you for your words of wisdom and concern. As with all things that seem difficult at first we can use the opportunities that come out way to hone our life skills or so that is what my mother always tells me. So today I am thankful for this experience and for friends, family and this community to draw strength from. I'll let you know how the next week goes. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 1:48 pm: Hi Marcia,It sounds like you're getting more sleep! Things always seem overwhelming to me when I'm dog tired. It sounds like your filly is settling in fine; she could have been a little frightened and confused about events, too. I love your feelings about the night time feedings. One of my favorite times, even when it's cold, our the nights when I go out and check on the horses and it's so still and peaceful. Your mare sounds like she was one of those great broodmares we are all so grateful for when we have one. I'm glad you got one more foal from her, and it was a filly. You feel such a loss when you loose one of those special mares. Perhaps the filly can be sort of a replacement for her. Keep us posted and post a picture when you get around to it. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 19, 2008 - 2:13 pm: I love Annie and Frannie, bet you will have a hard time limiting Frannie on goat feed.Loved your mail too I can see in my mind all the goats coming home with you and put in a henhouse 'just in case' So happy everything looks a bit brighter for you Annie [and ofcourse Frannie is the biggest winner!] Looking forward to pictures. Jos |
Member: morg1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:19 am: I'm glad that things are working out. I had a filly several years ago that lost her mother to West Nile when she was 4 1/2 months old. I usually wean before then but for some reason I didn't yet with her. The whole ordeal stressed her out and she started kicking at us, but it only lasted about a week. I think that it was just one way she expressed her stress. |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:09 pm: Good Morning All,Yesterday I introduced Foal Lac pellets to Annie with little success. The flies enjoyed them though. Even Frannie, Annie's nanny didn't want them. I am feeding Annie every fours hours now. She will drink up to 3 pints of Foal Lac milk right away. I was hoping in between the four hour feedings she would begin to show an interest in them. Have anyone of you had any luck with this and if so what is your secret? As always thank you for all the input. I really do consider all the options, and try and use what works best for us. Marcia |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 1:29 pm: Hi Marcia. The filly may just not be ready for them yet. I'd keep offering them to her,but just offer a few of them in your hand. Once she finally tastes them, she'll probably like them then want more. You might try offering the goat a few pellets with sweet feed or oats mixed in - something it likes so it will eat out of your hand. This will make the foal curious about what you have to offer, then offer your hand to the foal, with just the foal-lac.Are you offering the pellets plain or softened up? You can offering them in the evening softened up with a little of the foal-lac liquid. The flies won't be so bad in the evening and the pellets will stay fresh longer. |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 4:24 pm: Marcia,How soon do the foals who have a mother start showing an interest in their mothers food? Cynthia |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Jul 20, 2008 - 10:32 pm: Cynthia, my babies have always started mouthing Mom's feed from the get-go. Usually actually getting some of it down in the first few weeks. |
Member: morg1 |
Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 12:26 am: I never did have any luck getting my foal to eat the Foal Lac pellets. I ended up mixing the pellets with grain, and after that just fed the foal Omolene 300. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 1:39 pm: I'm right there with Karen on that one, I did try the foal-lac pellets once a long time ago, wound up throwing them out. I guess I could have tried adding molasses, that seems to get anything down. |
Member: marciaw |
Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 5:33 pm: I sure wished I would have talked with you gals before I made such an investment in pellets. I live in such a remote place one really has to plan ahead. So I purchased 65lbs of them. I'll try mixing them with the Omolene 300. I was glad to have them last night however. The Foal-Lac powder I ordered hadn't come last Friday and I knew I wouldn't make the weekend. So I borrowed some from another ranch wife. She was glad to share and when it got here I was disappointed to see that it was outdated by almost 4 years and smelled rancid. So we ground pellets in my food processor. I didn't know how one cup of powder would compare to one cup of ground pellets so I way over diluted. At least I hope so. My Foal- Lac powder was delivered in town today. So it is just an hour and a half away. I will have to feed ground pellets one more time. I bet Annie will be glad to have her formula back. Today I am ordering more so there will be no chance of running out again. Annie is get attached to Frannie and Frannie is getting attached to Foal-Lac. |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 7:18 pm: I fed the Foal-Lac powder for at least a month before I tried the pellets. She started eating them without any trouble that I can remember. I didn't have to mix them. She was only my second foal in 17 yrs and my first experience with a rejected or orphan foal. Her Mother did allow me to milk her for about two weeks but then started getting blood in her milk. By then she was also nursing from her grandma and we were able to go 4 hours between feedings.Cynthia |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Jul 21, 2008 - 9:08 pm: Hi Marcia, when we were breeding our mares, we kept some Foal-Lac in the freezer. It kept for a long time in there. I'd put some in the largest Tupperware container I could find, date it, and keep it as back-up. I know people the also freeze colostrum in case a foal is orphaned before it can get colostrum from it's dam. |
Member: paardex |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 - 3:22 am: Hi Marcia,I shouldn't worry about the pellets. One foal starts eating immediately others later.Utah started this week showing interest and he is born may 30th granted he has mum and grass but the others under the same condition usually eat/nibble from day one. You can always mix the pellets with the next food to feed them if she doesn't like the taste she will start nibbling sooner or later. Sounds like you could use some help too Jos |