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Discussion on Help. Weanling getting aggresive? | |
Author | Message |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 4:34 pm: Hi, I hope someone can help me figure out what I done wrong or what is happening, we picked this foal out of 13 others for she was the friendliest and didn't mind being touched by anyone, she did have a hernia but that didn't matter to us, when we got her home there was no grass left to eat so we started her on hay, we could pet her and was very friendly, put a halter on her and started to lead her around on a rope, took a bit but she does just great. The time came to get her hernia fixed and she did great. The vet told us to deworm her and since she was so young to give her extra if our hay wasn't good quality, witch it wasn't so I went to a good horse store and he gave us Masterfeeds Frisky Foal Ration pellets, you were to feed her 1.5 kg per hundred body weight, so we have been feeding her up to 5 pounds. Within a few weeks she started to block me when I went to poor it in her bucket and had to be shoved out of the way quite often, but she wasn't to bad. Then we called the farrier out to do her hooves, and he said she was a little under weight and asked what we were feeding her, I showed him the frisky foal pellets and he said to add rolled oats to that to, start with 2 cups then increase until your half and half, plus to get high grade hay. I started her that evening on the added 2 cups of oats. The next day while my 2 sons and myself were cleaning out her pen, she started to walk up to them and bite them. The next day, she tried again but then started to turn her bum to me and start walking backward, I slapped her on the bum but then she tried it to my son and if it wasn't for the wheel barrel it could of been bad. I've read where its saying she's trying to show dominance, but we have been cleaning her pen everyday and before she would walk up to us and let us pet her and follow us around, no problems, why now. If it's the feed, can you let me know, or what am I doing wrong. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Friday, Oct 16, 2009 - 6:43 pm: Debbie, there are a lot more people on here with more foal experience than I, but I did raise one filly from birth. There were times when she would test me. All I can say is, keep the kids away for now until you've got a handle on this so they don't get hurt.I would carry a crop when she was in her bratty stage and if she kicked or bit, give her a good smack--no more, but no less than mama would give her. She needs to learn that you are off limits for any kind of dominance or herd behavior NOW while she is still too small to kill you. I wouldn't go in looking for a fight, but try to be lightening quick if she threatens or strikes out. Try to aim for a leg, or if her butt is toward you go ahead there but watch for high flying hooves! Don't bother trying to pop her on the nose, she will take it as play, and probably be too fast for you anyway. Remember to praise and pet her when she behaves. Try to halter her and have her under control when you work around her. Even for feeding and stall cleaning. You might be able to head off an attack with just a growl and a jerk on the lead if she is in hand. and starts to act rank. But act at the threat, don't wait for her to follow through. As for the food, I like the idea of better hay over more concentrate. Is she really too thin? Or just not as fat as some people would like? There are possible developmental problems if she is overfed. Best to be on the lean side if she's healthy. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 17, 2009 - 11:05 am: Feeding can effect the overall attitude of the horse and in more than one way. Besides the extra energy of the food itself, many horses feel the need to protect their food from others so there may be several things going on here. Or it may be completely unrelated. You can experiment with this to see if you can better pinpoint what is happening but you will need to address the aggression and your place in your horses herd. For more on this seeDrO |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 3:41 pm: Opps I left the link out of my post above, it should have been, For more on this see Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.DrO |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 18, 2009 - 4:57 pm: HI Debbie,Instead of adding any more pellets or grain, I would give her corn oil. Start with a 1/2 cup and then add another 1/2 cup until she starts putting on enough weight. No more than 2 cups a day should add the fat calories without the attitude. I would also try a small wheat bran mash every day, that worked real well on my old mare when she had trouble keeping her weight in her 30's. I make it the consistency of cookie dough, it has enough moisture without being sloppy. You can add the oil and any supplements to it, she will clean it up! You may be able to cut back on the grain as well as the pellets and her behavior should improve. Cynthia |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 8:48 am: Hmmm, Cynthia is thinking about the research that says fats (including vegetable oil) are behaviorally a cooler form of calories. But the increased need of a growing foal for protein, minerals and vitamins, would make me think carefully before using fats for energy.DrO |
Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:43 am: Debbie, is this the foal that was just barely 4 months and weaned early when you got her? I remember a previous post but not sure if it was you or not.ABSOLUTELY keep the kids away for now, or only let them around when she is under your direct control. Foals play rough and if this one was weaned early you are going to have to teach her the herd manners mom would have. I have been personally kicked in the head by a foal who was generally well mannered and just striking out in play when I took my eyes of her for just a millisecond. (hmm, kicked in the head .. that explains a lot about me!) I would recommend free choice hay, especially if it's not great quality, so she is never standing around hungry. With regard to the concentrates, feeding a foal is a delicate balancing act. They need to get sufficient nutrition as they are growing rapidly, but it is also easy to overfeed and developmental (conformational) problems can result. You might want to get a feeding program outlined by your vet. Finally remember that every time you handle your horses you are training them (or un-training them!). If you have never halter trained a foal before, I highly recommend getting an experienced horseperson to come and give you some handling pointers. Even a quick 20 minute session once a week with a trainer can do wonders for keeping you on track. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 1:07 pm: Debbie, I checked your profile and see that you write that you have very little horse experience. That leads me to heartily agree with Shannon regarding getting some help. Ask around for some recommendations for an experienced trainer. Observe a few of them (how do their horses behave, does their method of handling their horses agree with your philosophy, what is their experience level and qualifications, etc). Really, you don't even need a "professional", just someone with quality experience that has handled/trained babies.Enlist this person's help so that you give your filly the best chance of growing up to be a solid citizen and so that you can keep yourself and your kids safe. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 5:14 pm: Debbie, please do not be too hard on yourself, and do get help from someone competent to work through this with you, your family, and your filly. Young horses present challenges that older, seasoned, and socialized horses do not. This sounds like social "testing" behavior, and if addressed consistently, firmly, and fairly, is an opportunity to develop a proper, respectful relationship with your filly.Helping a young horse learn respect and manners is essential to your safety and its long-term welfare. Usually, young horses at killer plants are there for behavioral rather than soundness reasons. This is sad, but largely preventable. |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 10:09 pm: Hi Everyone, Thanks so much for all the information. I was concerned about what I was feeding her but the vet is the one who told me to give her extra if I didn't have good quality hay. Then when the farrier came to do her hooves he has 35 years of rasing horses, he told me to add oats, so I did, he also told me to take her halter off now and then for she didn't need it on all the time, so we took it off that night. Then the next day is when she got all aggressive. Just 2 days ago we put the halter on and she is as friendly as she was the day we got her. A total transformation. Doesn't bother the kids at all or me. Haven't changed her food either. Was that all it took? My husband has experience with horses, he's the one who thought of putting the halter back on, then we have the vet who has come out on her lunch break to see how were doing, she raises horses and is in the process of weaning 13 foals, plus the farrier is a old friend to. Now that she's back to normal I'm very happy. I forgot all about taking the halter off that day, but I would of never thought that would of been the problem. To me she was never that skinny, for the farrier really had to run his hand hard along her side to feel anything. She is growing taller and gaining weight so when we see she has some hay left over after a feeding I give her a little less next time. |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:02 pm: Debbie, that's great news. Here's one thing to consider; if you are leaving the halter on her, it might be a good idea to use a "safety" or "breakaway" halter. That way if she catches it on something, the halter will break and her neck won't. Many safety halters have a leather crown piece; leather turn-out halters are all leather, and lighter weight than fancy leather ones. I found a very nice leather turnout halter for my horse on sale for $15. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Monday, Oct 19, 2009 - 11:25 pm: I have to admit, seeing foals wearing a halter all the time is a huge pet peeve of mine. For the obvious safety reasons and because it indicates a lack of training on the owners part and respect if the foal needs to wear a halter to be caught. John Lyons has a great little book called "Bringing Up Baby", or something like that and I highly recommend reading and studying it. I have two or three weanlings every year, most of the time they come to me not halter broken and in 24 hours they are comfortable with me putting a halter on and are starting to give to pressure and follow a feel of a rope on their neck. The next day, they are coming up to me asking to be haltered and scratched. Your filly's behavior when she's loose should not have anything to do with whether she's wearing a halter or not. She has to learn respect, and you--this is going to sound harsh and I'm sorry--have to learn to train a foal. It's very rewarding, but done improperly will result in headaches for all concerned. |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 - 11:55 am: Hi Julie, I don't think you quite understood what I was trying to say. First off, this is not some foal that has had human contact or has the mother, the mother is a broodmare and having babies is all she's used for, their out in a field where no one lives and their left to themselves all summer. There was 30 broodmares and 15 foals and colts. It took us 3 hours to herd the mother and colt into a fenced in area to load the foal. I've only had this foal for a month, for 3 weeks she has been without a halter on and has been very friendly and followed me around, and then I put the halter on her and I was learning her to walk with a rope. Then when the farrier came and said to not leave it on, it was only on her for 2 days so she could get use to wearing it, so I took it off for the first time and we went to clean her pen she attacked us. We have no problem putting the halter back on, which we did and found her calm enough to clean out her pen. Then we took it off again. I have no problem going in her pen to feed her or pet her, she just gets upset with me and the kids cleaning her pen. I know how to handle her but it was a shock. An no, I haven't even started to get her respect in such a short time. We gave her time to adapt from being away from her mom and getting her use to her new home, which was a 6 hour drive. Then my other 2 horses were biting her so we had to separate them, then she had to go and get her hernia fixed and time to heal. My question was why was she friendly towards us without a halter on when we got her, but now that she's had a halter on and when we take it off does she get aggressive only when we clean her pen around the area where she eats? We can correct it but I want to know why? I know horses are all different and not one is raised the same and I was only asking incase someone had a foal that did the same thing and could answer my question, I didn't need you to tell me I failed after only 1 month, I thought this site was to help people not condemn them for trying. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 - 12:17 pm: Debbie, I'm not sure the written word is the best way to convey advice, often sounds harsher than it is meant. Julie has a lot of experience with foals and I'm sure she has some good things to share.It sounds like your little filly is a lucky girl to have someone willing to think things through as to "why". She sounds like a smart, cheeky little thing and I'm guessing that there might be a different body language being shown by either you , the kids, or both when she is not haltered. You know, a little more cautious, or reactive? (I know I would be more watchful--how can you not?) That's why I suggested you don't work around her until you put her halter on. It may make you all more secure, and she will feel less defensive if she doesn't get that guarded feeling from her humans. I would love to hear how things develop. Just be careful in the meantime, and try to correct bad behavior at the first sign of aggression (posture, ears back, etc.). She might have learned some of this from the other horses biting her and it is the only coping behavior she knows yet. Remember to pet and praise when she is sweet as pie . Erika |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 - 4:12 pm: I knew my post would come off as harsh and I apologized in advance for that and am sorry you felt I was calling you a failure which of course I wasn't.You asked why she behaved this way and I'll tell you what I think: The filly's aggressive behavior is her way of testing the waters to find her place in the herd (this includes the humans). If she can act aggressive and you back off whatever you were doing, she assumes she is above you in the pecking order. Just as the other horses move her out of their space, she was probably seeing if she could move you out of hers. Shes' more comfortable in her new home now and is trying to find her place. If you have her in a small pen, you have a training advantage. If she acts aggressive, make yourself "big" and move her away quickly. Usually just throwing up your arms, stepping toward her and maybe shouting "hey" or something in a low, loud voice will do it. As soon as she moves away, go back to what you were doing. If she comes up with a nice attitude, scratch her and move on. She'll probably follow you. When she gets aggressive again, repeat. It should stop very quickly as she learns that you will not back off from her and you can make her back off from you. She will be watching your feet and if you take a step away when she misbehaves, she will notice and assume she backed you off. Many times we reinforce this behavior without being aware we're doing it. I think the halter on or off was probably not the cause of her good or bad behavior, but a coincidence and other factors were at work. I know your filly had circumstances that were less than ideal, but she will one day weigh half a ton and it's much easier to get a handle on this now. I don't think her behavior is defensive as I know you haven't abused her. It's her attempt to figure out where she is in her "herd." I wouldn't label her behavior as aggressive, but normal "testing", just like all kids. Again, I'm sorry you were offended by my post and hope this one doesn't add fuel to the fire. Babies are really a "horse of a different color" when it comes to training. |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Thursday, Oct 22, 2009 - 9:59 pm: Thanks Julie, I'm sorry too for I was very upset with myself. I've done everything I could possibly do for the little one and couldn't figure out why she would want to hurt me. Now that you explained exactly what I've been searching for it makes so much sense. I've seen the other 2 horses do that so often, I guess starting her on oats, taking the halter off that one day, got me confused as to which one it would be, it happened only by her feeding area so she wanted us out of there, makes sense now. Now that I look back, it wasn't really that aggressive, she could of been way worse if she wanted. I didn't leave the area until she calmed down so I guess that helped. I'm a stay at home mom so I can dedicate my whole day to her, weather permitting, so I was hoping being at her beck and call it would help bonding with her. I'm trying to watch all her reactions and watching the other 2 horses and how they act as well. I've gotten so much information off the web and have read so many books that you start to get a brain freeze.They help in what to do in different situations but I want to know the why. I've got the vets help, the farriers and have met a lady who raises show TB, but sometimes their not there when you need a question answered, so I appreciate your answering my question. I did try to look for that book, I went to the library and to Chapters, it's a big bookstore but havent found it yet. I did find a book called Rasing Young Horses, but it's for a foal that is with it's mom through all the training. He keeps the foal with mom until she or he's 7 months old, so it doesn't help me, because I will have to teach the foal what the mother didn't. So thankyou again. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 12:08 am: Debbie, you're very welcome. Please know that everyone here has been in the same situation--wanting to know the why, or wanting to know what to do, or wondering why ten different sources give you ten different answers (the brain freeze!). Just when we think we know what we're doing, along comes a new puzzle. It's my belief that God put horses on this earth to keep us humble! And to enrich our lives and encourage us to learn from them and each other. Keep the questions and observations coming...as you can probably tell, we all have different advice and opinions and while we may not always be right, we'll always try! And good for you for wanting to understand your girl's behavior and how to deal with it. You're ensuring her a better life! |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 12:16 am: Oh, you may be able to find that book used on line. It's paperback by John Lyons. He starts with a foal who isn't with mom and takes you step by step through the things a weanling needs to know clear to the first saddling as an older colt. He starts out assuming the foal hasn't been handled and describes each step very thoroughly. You won't need to follow it like an exact recipe, but it will give you a lot of useful and practical help and a blueprint for progress. Bringing Up Baby In my copy, which is old, there is a number to order. 800-952-5813or online at wwww.theequinecollection.com |
Member: erika |
Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 9:24 am: Here it is on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/John-Lyons-Bringing-Baby-Progressive/dp/1929164122 |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 12:21 pm: Thanks Julie and Erika, I found it and have ordered it, I also ordered a book by him at the same time on the month to month raising, this will help me know what she should be doing and make sure I don't teach her things she's not ready for. I even priority it so it will come in 1-3 days instead of waiting 7-12. I would also like you to know that she is allowing my sons and I to go clean her pen with no problems. She will even walk up to us and let us pet her. Amazing.I will only put the halter on her when I work with her. I wish they would of explained that to get her use to the halter you put it on and a few hours later take it off, I just thought you kept it on so she could get use to it, not once in the months I have been reading did anyone so much as mention that, but that explains why I'm a beginner. So yes I now know it had nothing to do with the halter. I went and bought a lung whip just in case but thankfully I haven't had to use it forcefully. I do use the handle to put pressure on her chest when I go to feed her to make her back up and stand and wait until I'm done, my husband needs nothing, she will stand away with out being told and wait for him, he gets so much respect from the horses, me I have to struggle, hopefully I will get it one day, I'm really trying. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 1:29 pm: Sounds like you're making great progress! The good thing about raising a foal is how much you learn! And of course how much they learn! It's very gratifying. And don't worry too much about making mistakes as most of the time they are easily corrected if you just go back to basics and break the issue into tiny parts. I hope you'll keep updating on your progress! |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 2:23 pm: Hi Debbie, although it's true of any horse, it's more true with a foal; the more time you spend with her the better your bond will be. I like to play "learning games" with foals. I think the books you are getting might cover some of these. I teach them to lead, then lead them over, around and through things, like an obsticle course. Start simple, weaving in and out of buckets in a line, then work up to over poles, a bridge, past scary things etc. I also get them used to having a towel or cleaning rag draped over their backs, then a light pad. Of course, picking up feet etc. Everything is done like a game, with rewards, scratches, etc. and no punishment. You work on each thing just for a minute or two, then build up time as foals have very narrow attention spans. It's fun for both of you. The more time spent handling her, the better she'll be for you as she grows older. |
Member: erika |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 3:14 pm: Yay! So happy you are feeling some success! Yes, keep letting us know how things go. I want to relive the little foal stuff without having to do it in real-life.Sara's ideas are great, can I add one more suggestion? The whip you mentioned--rub her with it all over so she isn't afraid of that either. She should think of it as merely an extension of your arm, not something to fear. You might want to use it for lunging later and don't want it only associated with punishment. Good luck! |
Member: sodmonst |
Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 5:02 pm: I used to put a little pony saddle on my yearlings every day for a a couple of weeks and then refresh the lesson for a couple of days in a row each month. When it was time to saddle train them later, the saddle was one less unfamiliar thing for them to adapt to. |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 12:14 pm: Wow, thanks guys. So much information. So much to do too. LOL. When I take her for a walk we go out of site of the other 2 horses and they go insane, they neigh and pace around calling for the little one, I hope that means that their getting use to her being around. They were biting her and hurting her I had to separate them but now when she's out of their site they go nuts. Were still in her pen, and the other 2 watch really close, but I take her through the trees where they can't see her. Does that mean their getting use to her being around or are they jealous they aren't going? |
Member: stek |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 12:45 pm: Debbie, this is typical herd-bound behavior, whenever a horse is taken away, especially in a small group, the ones left behind usually put up a fuss. So this probably means they are starting to see her as part of their herd.It's actually lucky for you that you have two older horses who we already know won't put up with any foal antics; when they are eventually ready to be re-introduced they will help you keep her in line. Do they share a fenceline? If not if you can manage it it might be a good way for them to start getting to know each other again; the foal will likely try to buddy up with them over the fence and making little foal-submissive mouth gestures, where she will rapidly chomp her jaw when approaching or approached by the other horses. Not sure if you have seen this behavior already or not but I always thought it was the cutest thing. Glad to hear you are making good progress with your little one already! |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 1:09 pm: I agree with Shannon, this is typical herd behavior. If your weanling behaves and doesn't get worried and upset when you take her away, that's a very big thing! Foals know instinctively that they are extremely vulnerable to predators when they are away from their herd. This makes them prone to being really herd bound, since they really don't feel safe on their own. If she's quiet and putting her trust in you to leave the herd, that's a very good sign you're becoming her leader. Just increase her comfort zone slowly and don't worry if she hits a time or place where she gets worried. Remember, she's hardwired to stay with her herd and is being very brave and trusting to leave them. |
Member: jakobe |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 6:36 pm: Yes, I am glad I have no problems walking her away from the other 2, she can still hear them neigh but can't see them. They are separated by a fence and can touch each other, I have seen the little one using mouth gestures towards them, and it is cute. I am also happy to hear that the other 2 think of her as being part of their herd, did let her walk amongst them with the rope on her to keep her safe and they all did good. She was also laying down the other day when we went to clean out her pen and she stayed laying down the whole time, wasn't worried about us at all, I didn't approach her, just kind of tip toed around her and she didn't move. The 5 year old we have will stay laying down when we approach her and we can sit on the ground beside her and talk and pet her with no problems. I've been working with the little one and she will let me pick up her feet, we will walk through tight trails through the trees, and in and around obstacles I placed on the ground. I rubbed the lunge whip all over her body and she's getting use to it, I even moved it over and around her head and she did good. She started to yawn so I decided to stop and let her rest. Made lots of progress today. |
Member: maggienm |
Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 9:19 pm: Coming a bit late to this discussion.I agree with Julie that the filly is trying to determine her place in the pecking order. While giving her time to adjust to a new home is great, remember if you are going to interact with her she is going to interact with you. If she tries to assert herself you have no option but to stand up to her. The Bringing Up Baby book is an excellent resource. I suspect for several days prior to the incident there were signs, body language, that you didn't recognize. HA is a great resource also, browse around. It is hard sometimes to get a thought across in words without sounding harsh, don't think anyone really means to get on someones case. |
Member: alden |
Posted on Monday, Oct 26, 2009 - 11:43 pm: Debbie,A couple observations. Tippy toeing around horses isn't a good idea, go about your business and let them have their heart attacks. In other words let them get used to the routine, don't change it for them. It's all about herd order and you always want to be on the top. So just move about the pen normally and expect your horses to watch out for you. Always be safe, sitting on the ground with a horse isn't very safe. They move very fast at the slightest of things and it's not likely they will consider you in the process. Specially a young horse. Don't be afraid to be forceful in getting your way, horses are not fragile. An old mare will not hesitate to thump a young interloper. The trick is to be consistent and forgiving. If you use a whip or training stick to move you horse out of your space always go back and "rub it out", rub them with the object, once they are behaving. Good day, Alden |