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Discussion on Huge Change in Mare's Attitude | |
Author | Message |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 9:04 am: I took Diva mare to the trainer's a week ago. I DrOve down yesterday to "check" on her. Wondering if she had settled into the new herd of five. Her past history is bottom of the pecking order.She looked fine. She's lost some weight, which she needed to lose. No bite or kick marks. There were five in the outdoor arena nibbling on leaves and milling about. They were fairly bunched together although Diva mare was on the fringe of the group it appeared. Here's where it's weird. I walked up to the fence and called her name. She didn't even lift her head. This horse has always looked up and come to meet me no matter where she is. One mare came over to check me out. I'll assume it was the alpha mare. Second horse comes over and the first one pins her ears. Second horse takes a step back. I move down the fence a few steps and pet the second horse. Horse #3 and then horse #4 come over to check me out. MY horse still stays in the center nibbling leaves. ? I call her name a second and third time. She finally lifts her head and shuffles over. ? Her expression is flat. Her eye is flat. It seemed as if she didn't even know who I was. One of the other horses took a step toward her and she moved away and went back to nibbling leaves as if I didn't even exist. Listless would be a good adjective to describe her demeanor. I went to the barn and looked at her stall. Clean. Looked at the rations written on the dry erase board on the front of her stall. Appropriate. ? I'm not well versed on herd behavior. In the past ten years I've only had one bad experience with separation. We had a gelding so bonded to a pony mare that when she left, he changed immediately. Pacing and weaving and snaking his head in the pasture. Running the fence. He had other pasture mates--all geldings. He worked himself into such a state that he coliced and foundered severely. Had to be put down. Is my Diva mare depressed she isn't home? Is her behavior just the result of being at the bottom of the pecking order? I've had her 18 months. For the eight years prior she was trailered almost every week to a show, performance, or parade. Stalled and pastured with many other horses. Always traveled well. However, during the 18 months I've had her, we've only left the farm once in the trailer and stayed over night some place once. So, smart HAers, what is your guess about the source of her behavior? I know horses aren't like dogs running up to love all over a person, but I would have expected a slightly different reaction from Diva mare when I saw her. |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 9:29 am: Hi Vicki, my guess is since she is bottom of the pecking order, she isn't moving her feet until alpha says ok. She is still figuring things out.Also when they go into training, they get tired, physically and mentally. When Hank went to the training barn he was just the opposite, he loved seeing his mom (he is an alpha horse thru and thu!) tho the filly he was with was more subdued as you described Diva. Unless Hank gave permission she was not "allowed" to visit. They actually moved Hank to a more aggressive bunch, the trainer said they could teach him to be a little less "alpha" He said there was a horse in that group that no other horse could take the "alpha" status from...took Hank a day Diva will probably remain this way...it is her "nature" and be back to normal when she comes home. Just keep an eye on her. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 7:42 am: Vicki, did you take her out and handle and/or ride her? If so, what was her attitude like then?While her behavior may be a result of new surroundings, added hard work and/or herd dynamics, I'd be a bit concerned about what else may be going on with her training. How well do you know the trainers? Have you watched them work with other horses and seen the results when the horse came home? We've all heard too many horror stories of so-called trainers mis-treating horses. I don't want to scare you, but offer it up as a possible (but hopefully not probable) explanation. One other thought pops in to my head and that your mare wasn't feeling well. You may want to double check with the trainers to ensure her vitals are all good and that she is eating/pooping normally. |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 8:05 am: Very true what Fran says too, Hank caught a virus at the trainers and he was down and out for a couple weeks, acted much like you describe.As far as trainers, whenever I sent a horse to a barn, regardless if I knew them or not, I always made a surprise visit a couple times a week. One gelding I sent to a reputable barn was left out in 100 degree weather, with no water all day. Hank was left a weekend with no hay or water, thank goodness I checked on him all the time...it was an hour drive one way. My experience from working at a training barn was the same, the trainers were very good, but their help left a lot to be desired! |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 8:40 am: Before sending Diva mare to the trainer, I had read quite a bit on HA and had the very things you ladies mention in the back of my mind. Sat and Sun I made surprise visits. Sat no one was there. Sun I arrived and she was under saddle and looked more like her stinker self. Pinning her ears at the geldings and looking stubborn.I did not take her out on Sat. Didn't feel quite comfortable "helping myself" when no one was around; however, if I had been truly alarmed, I certainly would have. I was just mildly concerned and duly noted her demeanor. She had been ridden recently on Sat as I noticed slight girth mark from sweat. So perhaps she was just tired and thought, "Geez, I just got in here and here SHE comes..." along with the bottom of the pecking order status. I also looked the other four horses over. All bright eyed, clear nostrils, no coughs, no wounds/sores/etc. Everyone was moving around well. Sun I was relieved to see her under saddle and looking more like herself. Like Fran mentioned, I was a little concerned maybe Diva mare was getting sick. The trainer mentioned he was going to be gone next weekend, so I'll probably make the trip again on Sat and Sun to see how whoever is taking care of the horses is doing. The trainer rents this barn/arena space, so I don't think anyone connected with the operation actually lives there. I feel real comfortable with the trainer based on first impressions and recommendations. I also saw the trainer in the saddle on Diva mare. But mom worries. And like Diane mentioned, you never know about the help... I'm not in the horse industry or a well-seasoned, super knowledgeable horse person... AND, I have never sent a horse to a trainer before. So, I tend to err on the side of caution but hopefully not be one of those PITA horse owners who drives everyone nuts. I'll save that side of my personality for HA where there's enough members to post that someone won't mind my questions. |
Member: shanson |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 11:40 am: You are wise to keep a close eye on her. I wouldn't worry about being perceived as a PITA. A good trainer respects an owner who's interested and involved in their horse's management & progress while in training. |
Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 12:20 pm: Vicki since the trainer will be out next weekend you might see if it's ok if you work your mare when you go to visit. I would assume this would be fine unless there are some liability issues due to the trainer leasing the facility. If you suspect illness you might also ask the trainer to do a daily check and record her vitals over the week for you, not at all an unreasonable request.Does your trainer keep a log of training sessions? Also very nice to have if your trainer will do it, though not all will want to take the time. Your mare might just be content to be part of a herd for a change. We got a new boarder about a year ago whose horse was always kept alone. He was always very happy to see her as she was his only source of social interaction. When he got turnout with our other 4 horses he got to be a 'horse' again as part of a herd and was not nearly as enthusiastic about her visits since he was more socially fulfilled (for lack of a better term). |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 1:00 pm: Shannon, I'll have to reread my contract, but I don't think liability issues would allow me to ride unless my trainer is present.I'll have to ask about the training log, but I'm guessing, no. Trainer doesn't look like a paper person to me. After seeing her Sun, I don't suspect illness. Diva mare has two geldings here for a giant herd of 3. The previous owner, who bought her as a weanling, had her ten years with a herd of 3 to 16. She was supposedly always at the bottom. And I was told, she seemed happiest when she was alone but next to the other horses. ? However, certainly can't hurt for her to get her come uppance in Horse World once in a while. When she is alone, but to next to the other horses here at home, over time, she gets a little full of herself. Which is why I call her Diva mare. What are the herd dynamics if she is the only mare and the other two are geldings? And these two geldings are BUDDIES. |
Member: stek |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 2:04 pm: Ahh, I didn't realize she had horse company at home. I see now in your profile you have two halflingers too which I assume are the buddies. My guess in that case if they are very strongly pair-bonded is that you have a herd of two and a herd of one. Does Diva get turned out with the boys? Does she ever buddy up with them and scratch? I also have a mare that likes to have other horses around but not necessarily in her personal space .. also kind of a Diva I guess! She is happiest when she is with one other subordinate mare, except for when she is in heat when she torments the boys looking for love! |
Member: aletao |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 2:06 pm: Just my two cents... my "Diva" mare (not her name, but certainly is her attitude) was sent out for breeding season. When I went to visit her, she had a blank "horse" look to her and not the usual animated look. When she returned to my place in foal, her attitude resumed. I guess nobody noticing her being a Diva kept her from being one while at the breeding farm. :-) |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 2:38 pm: I was unaware that they make mares that aren't Divas! |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 2:50 pm: Sara isn't that the truthVicki after you get Diva home remind me to tell you about some of the things I experienced while working at the training barn...VERY VERY frightening stuff. |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:14 pm: It might be a herd of two and a herd of one. They have been "pair bonded" for several years. They are a hitch team and they walk every where that way on the lead. Shorty is always on the left and Windy on the right. I separate them about once a week (in sight and out of sight) hoping that will be enough to keep them from freaking out. I hand walk each one out of sight also. Much calling and high heads for awhile.Windy is the alpha and he called frequently for Diva mare the first two days she was gone. So experienced herd people, what should I be doing? When Diva mare came I tried to introduce them slowly, but I apparently didn't do a very good job because they have never settled down. They ran her to death. She is in much better shape than they are but all three were drenched. She had several pretty bad bite marks. She has had back shoes on since early spring, and I don't want her to kick them. So I turn them out side by side (fence between). Their stalls and dry runs are adjacent. If they stand next to the fence they have plenty of room to scratch and nuzzle; however, I have NEVER seen them do that. It's always pinned ears and fake biting or actual biting, mini rears, her rear presented and frog kick... She torments them by standing close to the fence as if she is inviting them over, and then when they come over, she lashes out with those teeth. Usually just bared and posturing. ? I read that some folks don't routinely put geldings and mares in pasture together and some do. ? I perhaps should have bought a gelding as I initially intended and maybe this herd problem wouldn't have happened!! Or maybe it would have anyway since the Haffies are so bonded. Before Diva mare, there were three other geldings with the Haffies, but that was several years ago. She does call for them and run around when they leave her sight. Usually lasts a few minutes. And she calls hello when they come back. It seems to be a cheerful hello, where you been. Hmmm. Diane, go ahead and tell me the stories, you aren't going to scare me. Denny can't have that crazy of a barn!!! |
Member: leslie1 |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:20 pm: vicky...face it....you need another horse.Perhaps one of Sara's golden youngsters would make Diva mare feel at home?! |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:28 pm: Don't think I haven't thought about it! But seriously, how am I supposed to exercise FOUR horses by myself? No one rides here but me.One day dream is to have a fourth horse to ride English...that crazy eventing looks like fun but I'm probably too old to do that as a novice! Maybe a nice quiet low level dressage horse? I really started thinking about it when Diva mare kept hurting herself. Need a spare. So, experienced HA people, how many horses can one person have and use? And do a decent job? And how many hours a week would that take? |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:37 pm: Lol, Vickie! That's a whole new discussion! And, a potentially dangerous question to ask! |
Member: scooter |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:42 pm: Vicki, Diva is at Denny's Lucky you!...I won't tell my horror stories then! It did turn me off of ever boarding a horse tho and this was an excellent barn so to speak.One can never have too many horses!!! That is if you have the cash |
Member: leslie1 |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 4:49 pm: Squeal~!!!K, Im off to find a horse for Diva Sis. ya'll know I love to shop vicariously!!! |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 6:45 pm: Hmmm..I have 4 horses, and it seems 2 are always "projects" and 2 are those I can ride. And quite frankly I've been thinking 2 would be enough since daughter only rides occasionally, hubby less often.But ask me which ones go, and I can't HANDLE MAKING A DECISION! On a good day though, I can ride 3...but the house is a mess, meals don't get made, but man, are those GREAT DAYS!! (Yup, another discussion, lol!) |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 7:00 pm: Uh oh, Leslie is on a roll. My husband leaned over and read that post. Rolled his eyes and walked away. If I decide I want another one, he won't really care.But. Seriously girls. I need more time w/ Denny before I go ramroding off to buy another horse. Sure would be nice though...lol I think I will start another discussion and see how much time you gals actually spend caring for the horses and how much time you actually spend working/riding them! |
Member: dove2 |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 7:26 pm: Oh good! I've be the first with my confessions of not exercising mine half enough! |
Member: kpaint |
Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 7:42 pm: Dove, I started a new discussion in General Interest! |