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Discussion on Will not back off of trailer | |
Author | Message |
Member: stuart05 |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2012 - 5:41 pm: I have read everyone's posts about loading and unloading and have been trying them.I would like to solve this one. My 12 yo TWH gelding is a great horse is every way except he will not back off of a trailer. In every other way he is respectful on the ground, we have done a tremendous amount of ground training. I can ask him to back, wiggle the lead and we can back for miles - unless he feels his back feet go down a hill, then he stops and wants to turn. I have worked backing him down hill, he is doing that pretty well now. So next step, I have been leading him out of his stall which has about a 6 inch step. I ask for one front foot, reward, other front foot, reward, ask him to come out more when he does he gets a reward but then both back feet have to come out one-two, I can't stop him with 3 feet out. It's two or four. Then when I try to back him into the stall, he will back to the edge but if he feels the DrOp he panics and steps back up. He loads well into a trailer. Stands fine but I have had to turn him several times in the slant load to get him out. He is a big horse and I just worry either me or him are going to get hurt at some point. The one time he really tried to do what I asked and back out, the minute his back foot hit air and not ground, he completely collapsed in the trailer, I had never seen anything like it. He will back a couple of steps but after a while he just shuts down. I had someone who guaranteed she could teach him to back out spend about 3 hours with him before giving up. I now have built a "bridge" out of plywood about 6 inches off of the ground and am working on getting him up on it and standing but I am still not having any luck backing him off of it. I'm not sure what the next step is. I am not putting him on a trailer until I have a consistent backing behavior. When I do, I also plan to back the trailer up to the smallest step off possible. People have suggested hooking long lines to each side of his halter and basically pulling him back out, but I figure he is scared about it already and I don't want a total panic attack where he gets hurt or collapses again. Right now I am using as little pressure as possible, I am using a rope halter and I have been using a clicker with a treat. Any ideas would be appreciated. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2012 - 6:16 pm: I wonder if it would help backing him with long lines outside of the trailer (and maybe off obstacles that DrOp to build confidence first) then work up to the trailer... Just a thought.I have an 18 year old mare that wouldn't back out as well - I always had use of a stock trailer so I just didn't bother with it, my trainer worked with her and now she'll back out once I got a slant though. I'll ask her what she did. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2012 - 6:40 pm: I don't have much experience with trailers so this may be a dumb question but will he back INto the trailer? Any reason he can't travel facing backwards?I think you are doing a great job, I'd just keep doing what you have been, keep rewarding any attempt no matter how slight, even if he seems to lean back, relax, reward, wait, ask again. Sounds like he just needs to get past a mental block that stepping off won't hurt him. Also, make sure you believe he can back off. Funny as it sounds, he don't matter if he thinks it's safe or not, and YOU think it's safe to back off the trailer, he has to believe you KNOW it's safe for him. Then your confidence will help him...something like that ;) Good Luck! Stay Safe. |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2012 - 7:52 pm: One of my horses, when a youngster, was perplexed about the idea of backing off the trailer.It was a worrisome situation after we brought him home from a trainer's facility because it was a hot day and he was stuck in there. Ground work and reinforcement of cues are helpful with getting a horse to back off including a little pressure in the chest area. (Porcupine game from Parelli). Just be willing to take the time that it takes and if your horse can do it successfully a time or two you will have conquered this problem. Be patient and don't press too hard. Eventually your horse will become increasingly motivated to get off of the trailer. |
Member: kriseyc |
Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2012 - 11:24 pm: Kim, It sounds like you understand your horse well and are wonderfully patient with his fears. In my opinion, slowly working on building his confidence with backing and rewarding every time he tries is the way to go. Doing small things as often as possible...backing into whatever you can and rewarding lavishly for any effort I think will pay off in the end.Good for you(!) for not forcing him and punishing him for not doing it faster than he can. We all have real fears, and patience and consistency, and your relaxed manner will hopefully build his confidence and trust in you to have him do whatever is asked of him. Keep us posted IKE |
Member: stek |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 12:08 pm: Agreed, sounds like you are headed in the right direction Kim. One thing that might help .. if you have stocks available would be to put your 'bridge' inside the stocks, so once he is in there he has nowhere to go but back out again. I'd also probably start with a smaller bridge (3") and increase the height gradually, and work on front feet first, then back feet.No way would I put long lines on him and try to back him out of the trailer that way if he has trouble even backing down a hill. Sounds like a fight waiting to happen. (though long lining down a hill backwards would be a good exercise). Sounds to me like it's not that he's not trying to do the wrong thing, but that he is just genuinely uncomfortable/frightened. He may have even had a wreck backing off at some point in his life.. had a friend of a friend break the cardinal rule of not untying her horse BEFORE opening the rear trailer doors, and her horse back out, hit the rope he was tied with and ended up with his back legs under the trailer. Ugly ugly ugly wreck. |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 2:30 pm: Btw, that's what I was talking about - using the long lines OUTSIDE the trailer. You would be at his head when inside.If you get him backing down blocks and empty spaces outside (especially if he can't see where he's going) it should help. He can't see his hind feet when he's stepping off and that may be what's scaring him. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 3:15 pm: I put a ramp on my trailer to avoid the issue all together. Yes, I know that's cheating..... |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 4:04 pm: Ramps can create other issues depending upon the horse.I much prefer a trailer without a ramp personally. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 7:27 pm: Yes, ramps can be slick, too steep, etc. But I have made accommodations for both. I find that both loading and unloading they seem to be more welcoming to the the horse.My Friesians are pretty funny now. They stop, try to look around to see what they are backing into, then they both do this side thing, where they back sideways out onto the ramp, enough so they can look around, and then rotate so they can step off face forward. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Tuesday, Mar 27, 2012 - 7:30 pm: And my Arab continues to be bizarre. She used to turn around and go out face first from the stall farthest in on a 3 horse trailer.She's got this new thing now where she flies backwards as fast as she can go, and slides down the ramp on all fours. Then looks around in a panic to see what horrible place I have taken her to now. She is 24, and just goes with us so that I don't have to get someone to feed her while we are away. |
Member: vickiann |
Posted on Wednesday, Mar 28, 2012 - 5:28 pm: Sort of sounds like a training issue that will just take some time and effort.Main thing is that horses or you are not injured. |
Member: sdms |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2012 - 12:13 am: Hi Kim. Lot's of good advice here. One other thing I'd like to suggest is to work on controlling each of your horse's feet individually first on the ground to then be able to control them when you get back to working with the trailer. What I mean by that is to be able to move your horse exactly the number of steps you want then get an immediate stop and stand or change of direction. Have him take a single step forward (or back) with a front foot then stop. Then move that foot back and stop. Then try two steps/feet then three.Then, when you get to the point where you start working with the trailer again you can have him step just a single foot into the trailer then stop then back out. Then both front feet, stop and stand then back out. Then add a single hind then stop and stand then back out. It's a very long process but I think it will help him to connect the dots of how he's supposed to get "back" out of the trailer. Good luck! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2012 - 10:25 pm: Hello Kim,I certainly think all the backing lessons away from the trailer may one day translate to backing off the trailer but as a adjunct to that try this next time he is loaded and home: Park him in the pasture in the trailer. Open all the doors and leave him there. Walk away. I really do not think he will starve himself to death and he may learn something, repeat as necessary. as it may take several times. DrO |
Member: stuart05 |
Posted on Saturday, Mar 31, 2012 - 8:06 pm: Thanks everyone for the encouragement. If nothing else, his ground manners, respect and control are greatly improving and the treats actually make him look forward to the training sessions. We are getting so close to independently controlling the rear feet but just not yet. He will back to the edge of the bridge but the minute he steps down he comes right back up. I have a concrete ramp for our tractor garage and got the idea to see if I could back him down it. It has the similar grade as a trailer ramp so we did that today and at first he was hesitant but now I have him backing down with a verbal command and no pressure. So we went back to the bridge - no, not going to do it. So I think I am going to build a 2-3 inch tall platform and see if that helps, When I get him good backing down the tractor ramp, I will probably borrow my neighbors two horse trailer with a ramp and do as you recommend Dr. O. I figure the more I lessen his anxiety the more he will think it through and not hurt himself. I am worried since we have a slant load trailer without a ramp and I'm not confident I will cure him of the stepping down issue but if I am successful with my neighbors two horse with the ramp, I am not opposed to adding a ramp to our trailer. He's trying to do what I ask, he just has something in his head about that step down, but he's the kind of horse that is worth the effort. We all have our issues ;-) |
Member: stuart05 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2012 - 2:54 pm: Yee Ha! some success! He actually backed off the bridge today!!! I had him do it 4 times, no pressure, just telling him to back and wiggling the lead rope at him. I think he surprised himself the first time that he was actually off the bridge. A treat reward and then we did it again. It's funny because I usually do not give treats and now when he sees the bag I use he actually wants to walk over to the bridge.Still can't get him to stop with just two front feet and one rear foot on the bridge but hey I didn't think we would get this far. Now I just have to keep my patience and not rush to the next step. I'm really proud of him and I guess myself since I do not consider myself a horse trainer. (and I tend not to have patience but obviously it pays off). The other end of the bridge is a little higher off the ground so that will be the next step and I will continue backing him down the concrete ramp. Next question - when I think he is really ready for a trailer attempt, should I first try my neighbors two horse trailer with the ramp or back our slant trailer up to a bank with a similar step down as we have been working on and use that? I'm leaning toward trying to do as much with our trailer since that is what we will use but would using the ramp build his confidence? |
Member: stek |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2012 - 4:01 pm: Great news Kim! Celebrate those little victories =) Horse training is all about patience and repetition.Personally I would not introduce the ramp at this point, it can have its own problems..if a horse comes off sideways they can still step off the edge and then be in an awkward spot. Can you do front feet in out in out in out in your trailer?I would work on that till there its no resistance, then introduce back feet in and immediately back out again several times without getting him all the way loaded to where he its going to want to turn around. Sounds like you are doing a great job and keep up the good work! |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2012 - 4:03 pm: If you haven't read it, read Dr. O's article about behavior modification. In it, he notes that a treat reward helps shape a behavior faster. Used with horse psychology in mind, it really does help with training, especially things that have a negative connotation to a particular horse. It changes the perception to a positive one. FTTT. Faster Training Through Treats! Personally, I only use it on mature horses and only for specific behaviors. |
Member: ajudson1 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2012 - 5:37 pm: That's fantastic!My thoughts: after he did it correctly ONCE, give the treat immediately, then go do something completely different, don't even think about the bridge, ramp, or trailer. Let him stand a minute or 2 munching his treat to "digest" that he did the correct thing, then act like you could care less if he ever does again, go do something else. Some trainers have a set number of times the horse should do something correct, say 3-5 times, then they "have it" I think letting them think about what they did, and giving them a reward of doing something else, works better. You can still do it more than once in one day, but I don't think doing it over and over within short time frame is the best way. You are doing lots to get and keep his attention on you, and he's trusting you too. Good job! |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 1, 2012 - 5:51 pm: I agree with Angie, they seem to learn overnight. |
Member: stuart05 |
Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2012 - 11:35 am: Update - He is now backing off of the bridge both ways every time. Worked on controlling getting only 3 feet on the bridge and he is doing that consistently.Went back to the stall door - that changed everything again, he would back up to the edge of the threshold and stop. If he did get the confidence to put his foot down he would just pop back up and out. So, for the last 3 days, we have been working on getting just 3 feet out of the stall and leaving one on the ground in the stall (about a 6 inch DrOp). Surprisingly I got him to do that but also surprisingly the first two days he still refused to back up even with the one foot already on the ground in the stall. Yesterday, I got him to do the 3 feet out of the stall and he finally felt comfortable enough to then back in. Today, surprise, surprise, backed him entirely down into the stall. Started with all four feet out and backed him in. We did it 3 times rewarding him each time and then quit. We will keep reinforcing, I'm not sure when I am going to be confident enough to actually try the trailer but we are going to try backing through every narrow (safe) location I can think of before we get on the trailer and I am going to make sure the trailer is backed up to a place where the step is only an inch or two down to begin with. I don't want to get too optimistic, but I really never thought this horse would ever back out of a trailer (and he still might not) but he just might! |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2012 - 11:48 am: You're doing really well. It just takes time. Building his confidence in you and himself will work. Good job! |
Member: canter |
Posted on Friday, Apr 6, 2012 - 12:37 pm: Great progress, Kim. Your patience is paying off and I think that if you keep on doing what you are doing, you will eventually have success. Kudos to you! |
Member: stuart05 |
Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2012 - 11:56 am: I just proved to myself with patience, consistency and positive reward (treats) even an impatient, inconsistent horse owner like myself can have success.I have spent the last month backing my horse everywhere and down everything. Today I put the trailer in a place where the step off was about 4 inches. I knew the trailer was going to trigger his fears so I didn't let it upset me when he had his usual trailer reaction of just charging up and in. I thought maybe I could get him to back out anyway, but he froze. I stayed calm, and made the choice to turn him around so we could approach the trailer again more calmly and controlled. I did not treat reward him anytime in the trailer with that initial reaction. although he knew they were in my pocket. We approached a little more slowly the second time. We did two feet and backed off, after a few times,with treats, I tried three feet but he came all the way in but much slower. I asked him to back and he looked really tense and scared but I stayed calm and HE DID IT! Treat city for Stu! Then he seemed to make the connection between all the backing work we had been doing and the trailer. So then I could easily control each foot up and in the trailer, one at a time. I even moved the trailer forward to make about a 6 inch DrOp off. He still is a little tense and nervous, but he is backing off of a trailer. Tomorrow I will do more and maybe have him stand in the trailer for 5 minutes before I ask him to back out and then work on a short trailer ride and ask him to back out. Hope we keep moving forward getting him backward! |
Member: canter |
Posted on Saturday, May 5, 2012 - 2:53 pm: Congratulations on your patience and perseverance. Looks like all your hard work is starting to pay off. |
Member: lsweeney |
Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2012 - 6:20 pm: Yea!!!!! |
Member: babychop |
Posted on Monday, May 7, 2012 - 8:37 pm: Fantastic! Sometimes it just takes a different approach - good job! |
Member: lhenning |
Posted on Tuesday, May 8, 2012 - 9:55 am: Patience and persistence pays off! Great job!!! |