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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Resistance to Stopping: Whoa Problems » |
Discussion on Barrel horse rating, rearing issues | |
Author | Message |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2012 - 2:30 pm: Hi guys!My daughter’s barrel mare has some slowing down and stopping issues. So I found this bridle and just wondering if anybody ever used it or have any experience with it. Our trainer thinks it’s a good idea. We don’t want to sell this mare my daughter loves her. Any thoughts appreciated. https://www.horsetrainingresources.com/bridle/ |
Member: leilani |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2012 - 4:27 pm: I don't think adding another mechanical issue to her is the answer. Go back to the basics whenever you find a hole in training; don't add an artificial device in hopes it will change her attitude. Do right by the horse - always. |
Member: juliem |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2012 - 4:58 pm: Yikes! This thing isn't for riding or training! It's a very old school device for restraint.You have a training issue, best fixed by proper training, likely with a professional trainer. |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2012 - 6:40 pm: I don't want to come off to harsh or smart here. But, I gotta ask, did the trainer explain how or why this device might help with "slowing down and stopping"? I expect the problem is too complex for the device to help much.Here is some advice from an old and respected cowboy: "The horse is doing one of two things: it's doing what it thinks it's supposed to do, or it's doing what it thinks it has to do to survive." — Ray Hunt Some pretty obvious cowboy logic. But, I probably applicable. Think about it, why is the horse acting this way? The two path lead different directions. Here are a couple of other quotes. Consider them carefully, they will keep you on the path and out of the woods. “Horses are very sensitive animals. They have the sensitivity to be able to feel the weight of a fly. You folks who have been around horses know that because you put flyspray on them in the summer time..........and yet when you ride them, you ride them like they don't have any feeling. You ride them with pulleys and cables, chains, wires, tie-downs and martingales. Why?" - Ray Hunt "If you get bucked off or kicked or bitten, you obviously did something wrong, and that's just too bad. The horse, on the other hand, is never, ever wrong." Ray Hunt “There is no way that the horse will ever try to take advantage of you. It’s as honest and as truthful as anything you could ever work with. It has no ego that gets in its way. It has no pride that gets in its way. It doesn’t know what win or lose is. Those are the four things that get in the human’s way. All the horse is trying to do is to survive; it’s trying to make it. So I try to work with it like it was me............just like I hope it would work with me.”- Ray Hunt |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 10:10 am: Thanks for all the responses, I forgot to mention that when you slow her down she rears, she refuse to slow down, we being work with her with professional trainer a year now, she was uncontrollable before, now my daughter win first buckle on her and she took second place on roping on her, she has very good background training we see it in her but somewhere down the road somebody give her a wrong idea about running on competitions without a thoughts, so we being train her mined first, we don’t do barrels every day, one a week maybe. We try all kind of beats, bridle hackamores. She can be ridden with a helter. It’s just her resistance for slowing down or any pressure at that point. She rears, if she don't want to go in a trailer she rears, she don't want to stop before turn she rears. We work her on a ground in a round pen with stopping, slowing switch directions. She can do it all besides competitions. Wright now I'm looking for a quick fix if my daughter want to competed on her, from all the horses she pick this one, she said she feel sparks between them. Its sure a lot of spark there. She is a great rider they are a good match. All I asked if anybody had a chance to use it even if it’s a old school. My trainer think its may help with rearing; don’t know if we can ride in it but just working on a ground. That’s so through Guy Ramsey all what you said we always consider a horse first and adjust a rider to it.Thanks guys anyway, and it no harsh o sweet talk to voice you opinion, I appreciated it all. Thank you. |
Member: canter |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 3:36 pm: One other thing to think about: have you ruled out physical issues? Checked the mares teeth? Ensured that she is not sore somewhere? Before I look to any training issues, I always rule out the physical first. |
Member: leilani |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 6:13 pm: All good posts. But I still read in your posts a lot of holes in her training. Pain could possibly be an issue as well as memory. I still think starting over as if she is an untrained horse is advisable as well as safer for both horse and rider. |
Member: alden |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 6:15 pm: Natalya, I think you're missing the point. Ray Hunt was "old school" and I feel pretty confident in saying I do not believe he would have ever used a contraption such as the beery bridle. My horse training teacher was "old school" and he would have kicked my caboose for even suggesting such a thing.I'm going to be blunt. Your daughter has no business on the horse you are describing, IMHO. The trainer should have the strength of character to admit he does not have the skills to fix this horse, at 90 days on the outside. Rearing is dangerous and he should have not allowed it to continue a year. Your daughter's safety is paramount to winning a buckle. Good day, Alden |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 6:35 pm: Thanks guys, yes we have her teeth done first thing we got her. She did got lame 3 weeks ago, vet did exam and x-rays she has milled to moderate DJD on her RFF. Did injections, she is always on joint supplements. Vet said she should be good to continue her career. And we did start her from beginning as if she never being trained, we thought she is rodeo sour, but no, she is good at anything except competition. Well, we will continue with training till March, if no progress made we will have to look for another horse.Thank you everyone. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 10:11 pm: Hello Natalya,Assuming there are no pain issues or the horse has no learned or inherent mental issues, or your daughter does not send confusing information to the horse, he was never properly trained to slow and whoa. There are a lot of assumptions above that must be ruled out but if that has been done... Learning to whoa on the lunge or under saddle when there are no other issues, like getting around a barrel quickly, is the best time to learn. Since over reaction to the whoa cue seems to be the problem, milder action tack and cues than were used during the rearing seem to be indicated. DrO |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Wednesday, Dec 19, 2012 - 11:24 pm: I am just reading this. No one has mentioned your daughter's riding skills. Not knowing trainer, rider or horse, after all medical issues with the horse were sorted out, I would look at how your daughter rides. What is the first cue that she gives the horse when she wants it to stop? If her first cue to the horse is to pull on the reins, she's doing it wrong. Before you ride with your hands, you need to ride with your seat. You "sit down" on the horse before picking up the reins when you want to stop. Some trainers don't teach this and I've seen a lot of young riders hauling hard on their horses'; it's a wonder imo more of them don't resist by rearing.When on the lunge, what do you do to ask the horse to stop? Probably give it a verbal cue along with perhaps a body cue from you, like a look, standing differently, lowering your arm etc. If the horse stops on the lunge to any of the above, it should stop when you are in the saddle imo. If you could post a video for folks to look at, it might help. Even if you took a video then went home and looked at it yourself you could see something you're missing. My guess would be something the rider is doing. With that said, however, I did know a woman years ago who owned a former barrel horse, and the minute you entered the gate of an arena, that horse ran as fast as it could, whether it was going around barrels or not. It stopped when you left the arena. Someone had given it the message that was what it was supposed to do. On trials, it was fine. The horse had to be totally retrained to unlearn this behavior and it took some time. Also, I agree with the others; a rearing horse is dangerous to itself and it's rider. If it's actually rearing, that's a good way to get killed - I've seen it happen. If you trainer can't fix this, you need another horse and maybe another trainer. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 10:15 am: Ditto Sarah, she was trained to run every time she goes in arena, we fixed that problem. Some competitions she just walked or trot to show her that she DON'T HAVE TO run every time she goes there. She did great, just when she is on a free rain JUST in arena at competition and practice when she thinks it’s time to run. Rearing its her protest to slowing down, she thinks it’s a wrong thing to do, so we being working with her on a slow pace most of the time, she is free to run around 1.5 acres with my other two horses, so she is not over worked of confined, we treat our horses like family. My daughter is 13 she is very light and petit with a soft hand, she is a great rider. We do use voice, leg queue before pool on a rain, at a stop she sit deep pouting pressure on her but , leg forward to queue her to stop, she will stop regardless, just like I said it’s in a middle of arena when she need to break at a pole or rate at a barrel. Because if you let her just do it she will on a very high speed and go wide and if you try to correct her she start with hopping then blows and run which directions she likes. So when she do that our trained said just shut her down. STOP and then start over at a slower pace. I know it’s take time to trained her, we done a lot of progress with her and she is really good well behaved horse. I just want this rearing to stop.Thanks guys for listening my bragging. I'll try to post a video. Thanks everyone again. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 11:20 am: Well, sounds like you're doing things right and it's just going to take time. Hopefully, she'll learn. Does your daughter wear a helmet and a safety vest? I know these young cowgirls like to wear the bling and cute outfits, but I'd at least have her wear a helmet. Good luck. I just had a thought; I know some of the real pros give clinics for young barrel racers and have put out some videos. I wonder if any of them have addressed this problem, or could help your daughter and trainer? Certainly her horse isn't the first barrel horse to have this problem. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 11:59 am: Thanks Sarah, I hope so too. And yes she were helmet at a practice and when we just started on this horse she were helmet at a rodeo too. But now she trusts her. And we attended some clinics, at a rodeo a lot of pross helping with a tips and thoughts, we trying everything what available our trainer always opened for suggestions from people who knows what they are talking about. |
Member: lrhughes |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 3:35 pm: Have you tried just riding but not competing when at competitions...That is just ride her easy and have your daughters energy level stay calm?? |
Member: leilani |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 4:15 pm: Rent/buy/or watch on HBO "Buck". He's one of the best trainers around today. I think it might give her a lot of insight as to what's going on with her and her horse. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 5:42 pm: Thanks Leilani for the tip, I goggled him, sounds pretty good; I'll look into his videos. And yes LRH she can just ride in arena, she has no problem with an arena or being in it, its run itself, she rate poorly or not rate at all. That’s what we are working on right now. She can stay by the gate no problem she never dash out of arena. She thinks she know what she is doing, our job is to tell her that it’s not what we are asking her to do. Thanks guys again |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 6:32 pm: Natalya,Here is another quote: "A true horseman can relate and communicate with a horse in an effortless manner and with mutual respect. He understands the horse and is sensitive to where the horse is mentally. He has a total commitment to understanding the communication that takes place from the inside out between horse and rider. I have only met three of those in my life; Bill and Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. They each had an understanding of each horse that they came in contact with. They knew what the horses were feeling on the inside and they dealt with each horse from that perspective." - Buck Brannaman. See, Ray Hunt was the source. This is not a fad. And it is not really new knowledge. There have been true horsemen since Xenophon. But, they are not common, for the four reasons quoted in my first post. Dr. O's response was spot on. There was a lot of good advice offered in this thread. You need to develop sensitivity to what is true horsemanship. Pay heed and Good luck. |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Thursday, Dec 20, 2012 - 7:27 pm: Reflect a minute on Ray's shared insight.Why did Ruffian run the way she ran? Why did Barbaro run they way he ran? What do you think, doing what it thinks it's supposed to do, or it's doing what it thinks it has to do to survive? I am thinking survival. We have 2002 OTTB, Cat's Halo, of D.J. Cat from Halo. He raced for three years, retired, injured at 5. We put our 14 yr. old daughter on him. What were we thinking? She survived, he no longer thinks riding is a survival thing. He generally does what he thinks he is supposed to do. It was a wild five years. It took five years because the first three years were wasted with trainers that used violence and devices to try to change his perspective, quickly, so we could show him. Once we got squared away, thinks went better, and people quit getting hurt. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 10:19 am: • Thanks Guy Ramsey and Dr.O for the quote it’s very true what you say, unfortunately I’m not a horse whisper (I wish I would) but we are constantly learning something new, and never ever mean to our horses. We will eventually figure things out, I hope, this horse came a long way since we got her, she was starved we were hers 4th owner in a 3 weeks of period. So she was a problem child what a shame for such a good sweet horse, she probably went to some bad handling we suspect it, we are patient with her. She is coming around. Thanks you guys. |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:22 pm: Natalya,You seem real sincere, and nice. Glad to hear it. We call 'em whisperers, until we learn they are really watchers. Horses don't make a sound. And, they too are watchers. Let me see if I can post a before and after of one of our guys. It will encourage you some. |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:24 pm: This is an auction Kill sticker on his back: |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:31 pm: This is him in a Monty Roberts Dually halter on long lines working his way back: |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:45 pm: Blue and little girl workin' |
Member: gramsey1 |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:47 pm: It is not all about showing and rodeoing. It is all about horsemanship. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 5:50 pm: Love the post Guy! Lucky horse to have found you!!Natayla - it's always a learning process; we never know it all. I've been around horses since before I could walk; about 70 yrs. And, I still learn something new almost every day. Just don't take chances, that's all. And, be patient. Maybe this guy just isn't meant to be a barrel horse anymore? Or, maybe he needs a vacation from it for awhile. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 6:30 pm: Its really great posts and pic! I love the Blue he is so lucky, our Ginger was much skinnier poor girl. I understand it’s not all about rodeos; I'm just fine with that. My daughter already has her retired Arab barrel horse with who she can't part. Now Ginger. You are right Sarah, she maybe not good for barrel anymore but she love the rodeos, that feeling I guessed, she comes a live there, she is happy. She is happy home too, I don't know anymore. Will see what happened, still training. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Friday, Dec 21, 2012 - 6:57 pm: I know what you mean; we retired our older stallion last year and he misses "the action." He always loved to show and loved the attention; I think he thought everyone in the stands was there just to see him! LOL He's happy at home, but he really did seem to love showing. |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2012 - 9:33 am: Marry X-Mas everyone. I know Sarah, especially Arabs they are so smart and love the attention. Well, our Ginger went lame yesterday on her other front leg, and she just came back from a vet! Calling vet today againSomething definitely is going on, that probably the reason of her attitude even we didn’t see it before, well now we do. Hopefully it’s something simple. Will let you know. Thanks every one and Marry X-mas!!!!. |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2012 - 11:19 am: Sorry about Ginger. At least this gives you a possible reason for her behavior. I always look for a physical reason for misbehavior before anything else, and it sounded like you tried to do this. Maybe what is happening is the fast stopping after running is putting pressure on what is sore. Trying to run through in my mind a picture of what she would be doing, her movements when stopping. Do the same in your mind and see if you can come up with any relation between her now showing lameness and her behavior. I hope she is better soon. Merry Christmas! |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2012 - 12:42 pm: |
Member: mrose |
Posted on Monday, Dec 24, 2012 - 2:07 pm: Nice. She looks like a sweet horse. I hope you're able to get her problems solved. Cute daugher too!Taking a break from cooking. Got to get back to it. LOL |
Member: natalya |
Posted on Friday, Jan 11, 2013 - 3:57 pm: Just an update, Ginger still lame, going back to vet on Monday. Owner of the clinic finally called me and want to look at her himself, he is a great vet.Hope problem will resolve or at list we will know what is going on. Thanks for all advises. |