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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Resistance to Stopping: Whoa Problems » |
Discussion on Ex race horse | |
Author | Message |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 9:55 pm: I have been training an ex race horse. The horse is absolutly wonderful on our own, The softest responses etc. You could not ask for a better horse, However we have started going out with other horses on trails. Everything I have taught him goes out the window if the horse in front trots or canters, he goes beserk, I do manage to calm him and get him to listen but my concern is I dont want him to learn to grab the bit as he did when racing. I have him so soft he gives to the bit perfectly but in a horse situation his excitment and need to be in front takes over. I can turn him stop him leg yeild him work him etc but I cant get him to stop leaning on the bit, I know race horses use the bit as support. How do I make him realize we are not racing or is it just time. Once he does grab the bit and you gallop you are just along for the ride. He is like 2 different horses, the perfect riding partner and the non stoppable race horse. PS I can gallop him on our own and stop with just a deep breath slight nudge. |
Member: Hwood |
Posted on Friday, Jun 24, 2005 - 11:53 pm: Katrina . . . sounds like you have done absolute wonders with this guy. I think that riding with other horses is the next stage, and yes, will just take time and take you being more stubborn than your horse. Can you just ride with one other person for awhile and only have that person walk in front??? Then trot for short spells??? and just work on all the giving and leg yeilding at very slow gaits with another horse in front and taking turns leading and following??? I wouldn't attempt canter or even trot with other horses until he responds consistently and keeps his focus on you when he is at the walk. |
Member: Maggienm |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 - 11:25 am: Great advice Holly,I have always found that when the pressure (emotional) increases, which it would when you put this horse with another horse, I lose about 20% of the training I thought was there. That is not a bad thing, its normal. So don't be discouraged. Something I have found useful for a horse that that loses focus on me, esp on thee trail is to give him something to do. Instead of asking him to walk and relax, ask him to walk to this side of the trail, now walk to that side, step over to that rock, now back this way, after awhile the horse decides its easier just to walk straight. Be precise in asking where to step, and as Holly said you must persist, look for little improvements. I sometimes discourage myself by looking/waiting for the finished product instead of seeing the progression. Sounds like you have accomplished quite a bit already. |
Member: Paardex |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 - 2:43 pm: Katrina,I've owned an ridden an ex race horse with the same problem.We bought her for breeding so we wanted her most of all to stay calm and relaxed especially during early pregnancy. I found she didn't make any problem if she could walk in front af the accompanying horses. So that's where we started after a while she accepted walking next to another and later trotting, then we let her walk and trot behind a calm other horse but in a group never completely in the rear. We never got any further because she was first and foremost a breeding mare. Perhaps indulging your horse in this way could put the pressure down in the beginning so the rest of the training as suggested in the above posts is a bit easier on you two. Jos |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 - 5:21 pm: Like Holly, if I have a horse over anxious or misbehaving on the trail, I keep it's mind busy. Here we have a lot of sage brush which is about knee high to a horse, so I weave in and out of the sage a lot. Just going off the main trail where the horse has to pay attention to footing helps. It might help an ex-race horse from the stand point that there isn't a real "track" to be following/running on. If you go out with other riders and you all take turns being in front, sometimes that helps, too. Good luck. The ex-race horses I know have turned out to be terrific riding horses, even in the mountains, and in the show ring. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 7:22 am: thanks everyone. The horse goes back to his owner shortly. This is the only one area that that is going to take a few years I think. My problem was the people I am able to go out with, well most of them are not as considerate . I absolutly work him consistanty on the trails but when someone decides to take off up ahead , well hey, a horse will be a horse. I have to insist that when he goes home she does not allow this or all his work will go down the drain if he learns to lean again. Not untill he is consistent.I will keep working with him and the girl that owns him as the need arises, however I think she has a great horse and shes a good rider and will keep him on the right track. I have him one more week. I am so proud of him. I wish he was mine. I thought maybe someone knew something different than what I was doing. Thanks for the advice |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 8:28 am: I believe this is fairly easy to correct, Katrina.Actually, the better a racehorse he was, the easiest it is to correct. A good racehorse knows how to wait, knows how to keep a tempo, knows how to follow another horse closely. And, of course, he knows how to attack and win. So, you modify this from the top down. I think it is better to start from the top of training because that's where he is, that's what he understands the best. Remember, he's a professional. He already knows how to walk in line with other horses and how to trot for a warm up, he's done that a thousand times. Reviewing it will not help much with his galloping attitude. He just does not understand that he warmed up for nothing, and that's what you need to explain to him. So first, you tell him that he doesn't need to win anymore. He'll be surprised in the beginning, but when he realises that all you want him to do is to follow the other horse he'll be pretty content with that, after all he already knows how to do it. Let him break in trot or canter to follow the other horse, just don't let him overtake. Don't pull steadily on the reins to slow him down, don't lift yourself off the saddle and don't lean with your hands against his neck. All three mean "take off". Just turn him into the other horse's hind end and control his speed with very short, frequent checks on the bit. Do not expect him to gallop on the bit at this stage, if he finds a steady contact he'll think it's race time. DrOp the reins, as long as he follows the other horse, and enjoy the ride. After he is steady in following the other horse, introduce distance between them. I think the best at this stage is to open and close the distance continuously. Hold him as far back as you can, then let him catch up if he wants but not overtake. Do not urge him to catch up, let him decide for himself. As he approaches the other horse, point him at it's hind end from relatively far. Do not show him a window, he'll use it. He may even find this fun in the beginning, because increasing the distance means a stronger gallop to catch up, which is what he likes, only to find out very soon that killing himself to catch up may not be the smartest thing in the world and that keeping that distance is not so bad after all. Next step is to make catching up and following the other horse a bit more challenging. That is catching up and following in canter when the other one is trotting and catching up and following in trot when the other one is cantering. This is, of course, when leg, contact and collection/extension is introduced, and from what you describe, this is when you'll seriously fall in love with him. |
Member: Maggienm |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 9:06 am: Christos, I am impressed with the depth of your knowledge and your ability to clearly explain a solution.Great advice |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 11:07 am: Thanks for the compliment, Lori, but it's just another point of view.And I must correct my first sentence, this approach is fairly easy only if you feel comfortable at full acceleration/speed (you are crazy enough) and you do have safe terrain to allow a racehorse to gallop (the racetrack next door, perhaps). For sane people or without a racetrack handy, may be what the other members describe is a better choice. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 12:22 pm: Wow, Christos, you came thru again. Your advise is so common sense and perfect I wish I would have thought of it. you always come across with something new Thank you soooooooo much. I dont have a track but I have great trails that I know like the back of my hand with good long stretchs for a flat out gallop. I will give it a go this last week. Sounds like it has to work, makes more sense to me than trying to bottle up energy. Cant wait to see how this works. I love your tips. stuff I would never have thought of and should have. I do not think the horses owner is up to it , but if he does well and it works with him Hey maybe she will.Love your tips Christos, Thanks to everyone, Katrina |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 2:43 pm: Now guys are you that good of riders to follow Christos advice? Because most people aren't. I am not. Nor would i try that with my ex race horse. I see a terrible accident waiting to happen... My TB scares the living day lights out of me when she gets that race feeling. And I haven't ever let her go full out. Its a disaster waiting to happen.And i can sense it under her body. It's like an on/off switch. Most people should NOT follow that advice. Because if they aren't a great balanced rider, a professional, does this all the time, know how to control the horse, forget it. A horse like this is not ready for the regular trail rider. Because like katrina said most people aren't that courteous. Usually the rule is, warn those behind you that you are going to trot, canter, etc and give them time to move their horses back, away or change direction. But, not everyone does this. And from what i am reading you are training this horse for it's owner. Put a normal horseowner on this horse in that environment and there is going to be problems. I agree the horse is already a professional. And that leads me to think he will take control if the rider does not. Cause lets face it. He is the smarter one. Always will be. I am wondering though, do all ex racehorses do this? I've never put mine in a position like this to find out. too much of a scaredy cat... |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 5:55 pm: joj, Christos did not intend this to be advise for all people with ex race horses and I dont think he intended for any one to do this. This I agree is not foR someone who has the tiniest doubt that they will NOT be able to controll the horse they are riding. (This advise was intended for me.) I do have fear on occassion and I will not ride or do anything to jepodise myself when I have that feeling. The trick is to get your horse to lose that on off button you describe. I agree most people should not even think about this, Christos did mention this is not for every horse or every rider. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 6:33 pm: I forgot to mention No one should follow any advise or do anything that does not feel right. Follow your gut instinct always. PS I am not a great rider I just know what I can a cant do. I follow my gut like I hope everyone does. Its usualy right. |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 26, 2005 - 10:26 pm: Katrina, your initial post could most definetlely describe my TB. And while reading it felt hmmm, maybe i can glean some information on how to handle this situation.So although it was directed at you, everyone on this list can also read and take this information, use it, try it, and well... I felt that its also important to post my opinion, that it doesn't suit a normal rider. And since you mention that this is not your horse but a horse you are training, it's important to note that. Christos advice to me seems a bit reckless even for a professional. And yes, the caveat is there, but i glossed over it. Personally, i don't think a horse like this will ever be suited to casual trails, fun riding, camping or any such competitive fun. ( arena work, in a controlled envrionment only ) . Once they are off the track, and don't have this drive is one thing, but once they have gone thru the new training and still do this, i feel its a disaster waiting to happen. But nevertheless my post still stands as a reminder to those of us that aren't that great of riders. |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Saturday, Jul 2, 2005 - 9:02 pm: Katrina,If you have some willing riding partners that have quiet reliable mounts you could try a process I recently heard described. Rather than ask the horse to stay in the back when they want to rush forward, allow them to rush forward but then make that less pleasant than being in the back. When the horse gets up to the crowd work them in circles around the other horses, what you work on doesn't really matter as long as it is work. Then return to the back to rest making that the more pleasant place to be. I've heard it works well but I haven't tried it myself although I have one (not a TB) that needs the training. Good day, Alden |