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Discussion on Half on and won't further in! | |
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2000 - 11:42 am: Hi all! Here's a new twist on what seems to be a fairly recurring problem: My horse(he's a 9-yr-old Arabian Gelding) has only been trailered a handful of times before I got him (which was 1 mo. ago). I bought a new 2-horse slant load trailer (step-up) to take him to shows etc. with. However, now that I have been teaching him to load, we have reached an impass! Thru many sessions of patient work, I have gotten him to approach the trailer (which is fully open) and he will now even put his front feet onto the trailer, but will go NO FURTHER! I have been using the John Lyons methods of tapping him with the whip to ask him to go forward, which he responds to fairly well, except that as soon as he starts backwards taking his front feet off the trailer I start tapping again, and he just backs faster! So I keep taping and he walks forward, puts his front feet back up, and then backs up again! (it feels like a yo-yo!) We have (in desparation) gotten all of him on ONCE using grain as a lure, and he crab-stepped forward and then put his back feet on. This leads me to believe that he is not afraid...only STUBBORN. I have added more work with the whip on the ground trying to make my cue stronger, and he responds beautifully (I only have to lift the whip and he moves forward) except in this case. Why is it when I add the whip cue when he's halfway on the trailer that he backs off? He responds then right away by moving forward once his feet are down, and steps right back up, but he won't go forward beyond that! Any help would be much appreciated! |
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2000 - 5:39 pm: Perhaps he needs a positive reason to go on, too. The grain is a good one. Then he is rewarded, R+, for getting on. (I wouldn't call him stubborn, just not convinced getting on is in his best interest.)The tapping method is basically, P-, where a punishment (annoyance) is removed when the horse cooperates (begins to load). Sometimes the P- can be ignored rather successfully, sometimes it is hard to get the timing just so that the horse understands the irritation stops when he even thinks about going forward and resumes when he even thinks of backing up. My reflexes aren't the greatest, so my timing is not as refined as it should be using this technique. I've heard of tieing a rattling plastic grocery bag on the end of your "tapping" stick, too. Apparently, the irritating noise along with the tapping can be very effective. Sometimes a second person standing behind the horse out of hoof range who is crinkling the bag creates an impression that the reverse exit is closed. Be patient, it will come with time. |
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2000 - 6:28 pm: The whip is a cue to "go forward". What you may want to add is a deterrent for "do not go back".When necessary I use a chain over the nose. I don't jerk or use it harshly -- just apply pressure when the horse starts to back up. Make sure there is no pressure when he is standing still or moving forward. Also, don't pull on the chain as you are tapping with the whip. Use pressure on the chain ONLY when he starts to back up and release the pressure immediately when he stops. This has helped me immensely with different horses. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 1:17 am: I use the same technique as pamela. But only need to use the lead looped up over the nose. The key is to apply STEADY pressure while the horse is backing and it HAS TO be released IMMEDIATELY when he has stopped backing! Don't pull harder because the horse keeps backing , 'cause he will win that tug of war. Just steady and he will respond! |
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 10:14 am: Hello Pam and Ken,While you have a valid and very important technique for correcting inappropriate motion of a horse in hand. I do not think this will work well for a horse half in a trailer. The lessen a horse learns from a nose chain is to stay with his handler. You surely use this same technique to keep a horse from running ahead also. The result is the horse learns: when I leave my handler there is an adverse event. You can see this if you work a young horse in the manner you describe for even a short period of time. You can disconnect the lead and you will find he follows you all about. But this is exactly what you do NOT want when you load: you want the horse to leave you. I am not saying you could not teach a horse this way but I think you can see it will add a degree of confusion next time you restrain the forward motion of the horse with a nose shank. I think your method is approriate once the horse is off the trailer and starts to back away from you. On the other hand Chris's application of the whip evertime the horse begins to back is a powerful deterrent for not going back. Horses that bolt backwards after half loading is a common event and if each time the horse does it he is spanked as he goes backwards and the spanking stopped when the horse stops he will learn quickly not to do this. Daisy, you need to continue training with the whip and stop luring the horse with food, you only say to the horse: when you behave in this manner you will be rewarded. Perhaps you need to be firmer, but it sounds like you may be sending mixed messages: He gets up on the trailer is thinking about going in and as it contemplates this, adverse stimuli is applied and it frightens back off. Why don't you just start with keeping the front feet on the trailer, once he is there let him just sit and think a minute or two. As long as he is reaching down sniffing the trailer or looking into it, let him keep thinking. If he backs down tap him until he is back up there. Once you get him comfortable there and he seems to have quit thinking about it, start real gentle tapping again then slowly escalate it. Each forward motion is praised and given time to think about it. You will get him there and it will be easier each time. Remember, for this technique to work best you must stop tapping when the horse is thinking about going on. You must instantly begin tapping when he losses the desire to go on. If he continues to back into the taping it should become firmer. I load unfamiliar horses and mares into stocks and/or trailers every day and over the past 10 years this method has never failed me, even with hard cases. And it is a lesson that they remember making each session easier. We describe this method in detail in the article in this section. DrO |
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2000 - 4:16 pm: Thanks all! I am going to try asking him just to "hang out" with me when he is half on the trailer like Dr. O suggests....however I am concerned that I won't be able to get him to just stand there...he used to do that, but as I have been asking him to move forward again with the whip, he is tending to act like the trailer is a step aerobic class so-to-speak up/down/up/down etc. We have been rewarding him when he does take those tiny steps forward, praising him, petting him, etc. Maybe I just need to be more patient with this phase of his training. I will also try adding the bag rustling instead of tapping as he is going on....maybe that will convince him that the best place is forward instead of back where that noise and commotion is! :) Thanks for the suggestions....good to know that I'm on the right track! |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2000 - 8:40 am: Hello Daisy,Make sure that you get him somewhat used to the plastic bag during ground work first. If you use the bag the first time in the trailer, you might end up with a blow up that will require a vet and an emergency room. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2000 - 9:19 am: Good point! Thanks Bruce! So the idea would be to expose him to the bag, but not get him so used to is that he stops seeing it as an annoyance? Hmmm....fine line there, huh? |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2000 - 9:22 am: Oops, sorry for the confusion. I have a slant-load and lead horses into it..then if I'm using a nose chain, take it off prior to tying the horse in the trailer. My horses have learned to walk right in, including a gelding that had never been loaded before I got him. Just a few lessons, and now he walks right in with a regular lead and no whip. My mare, on the other hand, is the ultimate tester. She'll walk right in only if I have the chain over her nose and a whip in my hand, even tho I don't have to use them. When I trailer friends' horses this method works as well. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2000 - 11:07 am: Daisy,I believe John Lyons also says in reference to trailer loading that, in the beginning, when the horse puts one foot in, you then ask him to back out instead of waiting for him to decide to do it on his own. When he is comfortable with one foot, then make it both front feet, each time asking him to back rather that letting him back out on his own and each time trying to get him to stay in a little longer. I have found that, if nothing else, they get bored with it and just go on in. Kathleen |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2000 - 10:40 am: I had the same problem with my arabian mare so one day I took a book with me and would you believe I read for 3 hours sitting on the back of the trailer with her half in and half out finally she gave up and went in the rest of the way. She now loads but always takes a couple of minutes. |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2000 - 5:22 pm: One thing that I learned from Linda Tellington Jones is that it helps to teach a horse ground manners and the commands for going forward and backing up (which is basically what you are asking him to do to get on the trailer) separate from the horse trailer first.I trained my 2 year old to lead forward and to backup between poles setup about 4 feet apart in an L-shape. He was taught to walk forward, stop, walk forward and stop on command. He was then taught to backup, stop, backup and stop on command. This was all done on a straight line and then through the L. When it came time to get in the trailer he understood what I wanted and responded to the familiar commands. I have a straight load and I like my horses to walk up on their own without having to be led. I often show and trailer on my own and this makes it manageable. Good luck. |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 24, 2000 - 10:53 pm: I agree that the use of food (grain or otherwise) is not a good way to train a horse to enter a trailer. However, I've found that if you hang a bucket of grain or net of hay in the trailer before attempting to load it is a good reward for the horse when he does enter. I never haul a horse without a hay net full of hay in front of him. A horse that is busy eating, is likely to become frightened during the haul. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2000 - 4:39 pm: OK, everyone, here's an update...I have been working with my horse, Buster, now for a total of 8, aprox. 2 hour sessions, and I have been consistently working with the John Lyons method via the "go forward" cue, asking him to take a step forward by tapping his hip with the whip. He is perfect with the go forward cue except when I am trying to load him on the trailer (increased distraction) It seems as if he is systematically eliminating all of his "escape" options, he obviously knows what the cue is for, but he's been trying backing up, going to the side, kicking at the whip, and even biting at the whip to make it stop, before he'll even think about moving those front feet! I think I'm on the right track because he has gotten on again all the way (this time no bribes!)I let him sit there for about 5 mins,munching hay, and then asked him to back off....and then when I asked him to load again, he refused and we were back to tapping with no positive results. I know this horse knows what I am asking him to do, and I know he isn't afraid of it...he's just being SO stubborn. Each time I work with him, we improve. I have been letting him just sit with his front feet on the trailer, and gently tapping (not hard enough to make him get his head tossing and back out, but enough to be annoying!) And he'll sit there, relaxed, and look at the whip, and you can SEE that he's thinking "is it worth putting my back feet on to stop this annoying thing at my butt?" That's how we got him to step all the way on this last time...he just decided it was worth it!I am ready for him to realize that this excersize won't go away just because he thinks he's gone far enough on! My concern is that I don't want to take him anywhere until I can get him on and off consistently on demand. I can just see me going to a how or my lesson and not being able to get him back on. UGH! I am more stubborn than he is! :) |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2000 - 12:41 pm: You should have quit the session he went on, ate and then unloaded. That is exactly what you want. The next time he does this, end the training session. That is the best reward, aka a JACKPOT for very good behavior.Two hours is a very long time to practice. Work in smaller increments of time and quit as soon as he has "upped the ante" and done something that is incrementally better. The last thing he does in a session will be what he remembers as ending it. Breaking it in small chunks is good. Time the session to be well after he has eaten anything. Allow him to see you place goodies in the bucket/manger before you start you loading exercise. This is what I do: Show the mare a cup of sweet feed. Either lead her to escape door and pour feed in bucket on trailer, or lead her on with cup of feed just out of reach and pour it in the feed bucket on the trailer. I usually do the latter if I have someone to close the butt bar. She only gets sweet feed as a reward, not as a lure for incremental behaviors. Her normal feed is pellets - sweet feed is more desireable to her than carrots or apples or hay. I'm not luring her with it. I am giving her a very good, positive reason to get on. I don't think your horse is stubborn. That is a human emotion. I just don't think he sees a good reason to get on - hay wasn't enough. Sounds like you are really close. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2000 - 4:55 pm: Thanks Chris! I had debated ending when he loaded...I agree with you about the "jackpot" reward....however, I have been told by my trainer that it's probably not a good idea to even schedule my first lesson with him until I can get him on and off 4-5 times in a row...how am I to know if he'll do that unless I ask him to get back on? I guess the answer to that is that I'm asking too much initally by expecting him to get right back on the first time. Maybe stop after he gets on a time or two before asking him to go right back on again? That way he'll learn THAT is the behavior I'm looking for? |
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2000 - 6:28 pm: Remember ... small increments.If he gets on, nibbles a goody and unloads, then reward big time with the jackpot of ending the session. After a couple of single loading training sessions, then you can "up the ante" by allowing him to hand graze and relax and then try a second load - then reward with a jackpot after the second try. Once you can do this fairly reliably, you can go for a third one in a training session, a second the next training session - mix up the criteria for the jackpot reward. This is called putting it on a variable reward ... animals try harder if the reward for an effort is random. This taps into their natural "gambling" instincts, GRIN. If you can reliably get him to load each time you ask at the beginning of the training session, then that is all you really need, GRIN. You can only load him one time to actually go anywhere. The trick (and probably why your trainer gave you the criteria) will be getting him to load up and go home after you've gone for a lesson. My mare tends to load easier when away from home - but she has learned we are "going home." The first couple of times, we took her with a "buddy" and she didn't want to be left behind when her buddy loaded up. Try to think through each progressive step ... like, after you load, go pull the trailer around the block and come home, end the session. Then, try doing this, unloading, relaxing and then loading again. Maybe you can go to your trainer's one day when you don't have a lesson scheduled, don't unload, just park a few minutes and go home. Next time you can try unloading, hand grazing and loading up and returning home. Try to give yourself plenty of time for this step, have a goody or two to put in the bucket, have lots of daylight and don't work with a schedule in mind. Try to make the sessions short and sweet. You can do two a day if they are short and split in the a.m. and p.m. I've known people to actually park a trailer in a fenced area and feed meals on it. The idea is to have the horse view the trailer as a "safe place" where food may be served, hay is available and it is his "home away from home." Several years ago, my mare got loose when we'd trailered some place, took a trotting tour of the area and then came back to the trailer as it is "home." Sounds like you are making progress. |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 9:38 am: Chris,I wish I was on the "take a trip around the block" step in this whole process, but we're still back on the...will he get on...step. Yesterday afternoon I went back out to the barn to try again, and I could get him half on again, and no further. I've tried letting him sit there and asking him to back out after several minutes (before I think he might decide to back out himself), I've tried tapping him after he's sat there half on, asking him to go further forward (in this case he usually turns his head around every couple of seconds and looks at the whip, like....I wish that thing would go away!), but invariably, except for that one time, he back out without going further in. It's really hard to find a stopping place at this point. Do I stop when he's gone half in the first time? But then am I rewarding this half in behavior? I'm afraid that by stopping after he does something positive, but NOT getting all the way on, (due to time, light or other circumstances) that I've taught him that's enough to quit! I unfortunately work retail, and can only go out to the barn about every other day at this point. (one of the reasons my husband and I are building our own place right now....so I have more flexability to work with my horse!) I guess that's why I'm trying to cram as much progress in to each session. And since he's boarded, I don't have a lot of ability to feed him on/near the trailer either. I still feel stuck, like we're at an impass. |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 11:50 am: Daisy,Can the boarding barn not feed him his afternoon portion when you plan to come out? Then, when you come out to train, you can put up a hay net in the trailer and let him see you pour some grain (ration out his portion) in the bucket/manger. If necessary, lure him on the first time, but I'd rather he just find the grain once he is on. The idea is to teach him that getting on has a yummy treat waiting for him. Over time, you can fade the food if that is not your normal style. (Although, I don't see what the problem with using food is - we all work for money and not for free, LOL.) I know people don't advise using food, but not all techniques work for all critters. Also be sure your trailer is parked so it looks light and inviting inside. Many horses object to entering a dark cave. Sometimes you can position a step up so the up isn't so high if you choose your ground area carefully. Are you working by yourself, or with a second person? Some horses respond to new things by "fleeing" and others respond by going inward and shutting off/down. These more stoic ones tend to go "within" and park them selves, ignoring all things. Sometimes (I've seen the TTEAM folks do this) a second person can help overcome this "plant" stage. The second person actually asks for a leg as if to pick a hoof and then positions it closer. Then the next hoof in a walk sequence is lifted and positioned forward. Each "step" forward is praised. If you stall divider can be swung open and latched, this can also make the trailer space more inviting. (Or even remove it for a while.) Since you only want the horse to get all 4 feet on the trailer and find his reward in the manger, the divider can be set very wide for this part of the exercise. With out seeing what you are doing or the configuration of the trailer, I really can't judge if your timing is off or the trailer isn't inviting, etc. I'll noodle over it. |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 1:14 pm: Hi Chris!Thanks for all the great input. I had an interesting talk with my mom this AM about this trailer problem. My mom is not only NOT a horse person, she also lives across the country from me, so I was trying to describe to her what Buster and I have been going thru. Interestingly, my mom is very well trained as a behaviorist as she is a teacher of primary autistic children! It's amazing how much insite and understanding she had into the "behavioral training" of my horse! Her suggestion was that my motivator is not strong enough. Considering that the goal is to motivate Buster into getting on the trailer either by making the trailer inviting (food, good light, etc.) or by making the environment Outside the trailer uncomfortable (tapping, russling bags, etc.) Something here isn't convincing him that getting on this trailer is in his best interest. (that may seem fairly elementary to most people, but this made a lot of sense to me!) So the question now is: What would be a better motivator to Buster? I have tried showing him different goodies in the manger, and I have tried tapping till my arm feels like it's going to fall off....what next? I could ask the barn to not feed him (he normally gets his grain at 3pm)and I would be there about 4:30...just in time for him to be hungry, I bet. I have also heard of people actually penning their horse with a round pen or electric fence, etc. behind the trailer and only giving them their feed on the trailer itself. That way if the horse wants to eat, he'll have to get on! I guess that would give him good associations with it, but is that going to make him get on when I want? My trailer is a 2 horse slant step up, and when I ask Buster to go on, I have the whole thing wide open. (divider to the side, etc.) I have also tried getting him on by myself, and also having two people...one keeping him facing the trailer, and one tapping and watching those front feet. Initally, I did have my husband doing what you suggested, lifting one hoof and placing it gently on the trailer...to give him the idea. We have tried a little of that too, with the back legs. Get him to walk forward and then lift a rear leg up gently. We could go back to that I guess... Daisy |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 3:36 pm: You don't have a border collie you can borrow do you? :O) They do a great job of getting sheep to hop up in a pickup truck.Seriously, either work him hungry or use a less tentative tap. Become irritating. After 8 sessions at 2 hours each, he's probably totally desensitized and needs a grenade to go off behind him. Maybe your husband can bang a gong, shake a shake can you use on dogs, blow a whistle or something surprising behind the horse (out of kicking range) when he balks. Heck, I've seen a horse get a swat with a broom and hop on - I'm not recommending it, just using it as an example of becoming more irritating. Carrot and stick. Food and tap. Insist. Think positive. Be patient, but insistent. Worry the horse like a collie worries the sheep. Just let up the moment he goes forward and praise. |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 4:01 pm: Reminds me of that post I read about the pregnant mare who didn't want to get on the trailer leaving the vet's place and after the vet used the broom trick to get the mare on the trailer, she went home and surprisingly had the baby! Made me laugh when the author described how she asked her vet what he charges for a "broom induced labor" LOLSeriously, I will try getting creative at this point with him....thanks for all the encouragement and ideas! I'll let you know when I get him "fixed"! :) Anyone have a good border collie I can borrow? :) |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 10:05 pm: Ah, my Broom Baby is famous on the net... too badshe not feeling a bit better to enjoy it, but that's another subject. Good luck, and FYI Blue Heelers work great too! Emily |
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2000 - 10:16 pm: You know I just reread you origional post.I think you missed a step, leave it to horses to point it out (especially arabs!). Start 20 feet from the trailer & ask him to move. Let him take 1-2 steps forward then ask him to STOP and stand (pet him). Then ask him to back up 1-2 steps, then ask him to STOP and stand (pet him). Then repeat, repeat, repeat, and repeat. Then move to 2-3 steps forward, stop, stand, back, stop, stand. repeat, repeat, repeat...... and so on. He sounds like he understands that he is to MOVE but he is missing the concept that not only are you directing his movement but also his direction of that movement. Best of luck, your bigest challenge is that you horse is smarter than you realize!;0) -Emily - - |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 3:33 am: Daisy, you've had some super suggestions and sensible remarks, so you must be really frustrated if you have tried everything and he still stands there! I must say, I would resort to bribery and corruption now - anything, just to get him on for a few minutes, standing eating happily. His most favourite food, special horse cookies, masses of carrots - anything that would persuade him that it is worth stepping on that horrible ramp and going into that beastly box.And I think if you do get him on, and he does eat something, you must take him off telling him he is the most clever horse that ever existed - and then leave it for the day. You MUST NOT then try and do it again. Have you tried loading another horse first, and then asking him to go in? That was the only way one of my horses would travel - there was absolutely no way he would go in a box if there was not another horse or pony already there. And then of course there is Desie, who refuses to travel in anything smaller than a racehorse transporter!!! So be warned! |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 7:23 am: Hello Daisy,I have been following your trials and tribulations and agree with your Mom and Chris: you are not using enough adverse stimulus. It normally does not take me much longer than 15 to 30 minutes to get horses, that have for years loaded poorly or not at all, just delighted to jump on that trailer, repeatedly and everytime asked. Do not use food to temp the horse to go on: offering rewards while the horse is doing the wrong behavior just results in confusion. I do disagree with the sentiments that once is enough. After the horse has stood quietly on the trailer for 5 minutes it is a good time to back off and go again. I think while the lesson is fresh in the horses mind is a good time to reinforce it. DrO |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 10:01 am: Hi Daisy,I, too, have been following your dilema, and would agree that using food to bribe the horse is not a very good idea. Hay in the manger is one thing, but treats, etc. when you're already having problems is like "begging" the horse to load as opposed to "asking" him to go in. Last year I watched a trailer loading demonstration by Lee Smith. The owner had a quarter horse mare who had obviously been hauled some, because she got to the clinic. Lee asked the girl to try to load her mare so she could see what the problem was, and the mare basically did the same thing as your horse ... just put her front feet in the trailer and stood there looking around. The girl was twirling her rope, lighting tapping on the mare's fanny, but to no avail. Lee then took over, and it was like "night and day". She in essence said the mare needed to get ready to load (in her mind). Lee urged her in the trailer (straight load, 2 horse), and the mare got in with her front feet as before. As long as she was sniffing the ground and acting as if she was contemplating going the rest of the way in, Lee left her alone, lighting clucking to her. The moment the mare appeared to be just comfortable standing there, starting to look around, Lee immediately backed her out with some impulsion and then sent her back in. Same process was repeated many times over, finally with an insistent "whack" on the fanny with end of the lead rope to give her more incentive to get in. Lee indicated that the tiny taps on the fanny had only desensitized her since the owner had never increased the pressure. When it gets to a point, you basically need to make it more uncomfortable outside the trailer than it is inside. Both the continuous backing and the "whack" were uncomfortable. After loading, the mare was allowed to stand a few minutes, relax and then was asked to unload and load again. She was then taken to a different trailer, this time a large slant load, and the mare put her head to the ground, sniffed, acted a little hesitant, but walked right in on her own. I wouldn't say at any time that this mare was treated roughly ... Lee just got her attention and her respect. You also need to be aware of your own attitude and how you are approaching the situation. For instance, I have a neighbor who often has trouble loading her horses. She tends to go to the barn with the attitude "I think I'll have trouble loading Calico today" as opposed to "She's going to get in the trailer, and I'm going to have a great ride." Her horses could and still can sense a hesitancy on her part. If you don't have an air of confidence about what you are doing, the horse can sense that, too. In watching this forum, I've basically remained silent, because so much in dealing with horses requires a good sense of timing, and that can be hard to explain. Try to remember that horses basically learn when you stop doing what you're doing, as opposed to what you're doing at the time. They are looking for that comfort zone. Just a few more thoughts to add to the pile. Good luck! |
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Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2000 - 11:15 am: Oops! When I used the word lighting in my above post ... it really should have read "lightly". Guess I had a senior moment when I typed that! |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 7:19 am: Hi allI was not going to post here because I know that trailer designs vary a lot around the world and it can be hard to understand in text exactly what people are doing when they are loading. Here our standard one or two horse trailers have a fold-down ramp so the horses do not have to "step up" and they go straight in and travel head forwards - no slant. I presume that the trailer in question here has a good solid ramp and is not wobbly? Nothing more inclined to make horses nervous about loading than wobbly ramps. Anyway I have seen a lot of horses that do the "two feet on the ramp and stop" trick. There are lots of ways around it but most involve two people. Quite honestly a good whack with a lunge whip is sometimes what they need - not loading just has to be not an option for them, but I know lots of people on this list get a bit horrified with such suggestions... The point I want to make is that if you normally lead your horse into the trailer, getting on the ramp in front of them, even with a single horse trailer, is the wrong thing to do. Walk beside the horse's shoulder (normal leading position) instead of walking onto the ramp in front of them. And never turn and look back towards the horse if you are in front - instant signal for them to stop. All the best Imogen |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 8:34 am: Hi all! Imogen and Donna, I really appreciate your input! I have tried to keep my attitude very positive and firm that he IS going to get on this trailer.My touble currently is that when he gets his front feet on, I let him sit there and Donna, like you said, I start tapping him, and tap successively harder as needed to get a response...but usually that response it to BACK OUT! All while I am continuously tapping with that whip and as soon as he steps out and back, he'll respond to that whip and go forward again! I agree that he may be desensitized to the whip by now...I am ready to try anything that may get the desired response (within reason, of course!) But what to try next!?!? Imogen, my trailer is actually a step up, I have a friend with a ramp trailer, that will bring it by the barn this weekend to try to load him, to see if that step is causing a problem...but he's going to have to learn to do this step up anyway! I just thought reinforcing my cues with a trailer he WILL get on, then go back to asking him on my step up. But who knows if he'll respond any better to a ramp. I do know that the couple of times he was hauled before it was on a trailer just like mine....and they used the whip cue to get him on and it took about 15 mins. Boy I would love him to get on in 15 mins! :) Imogen, I have also been trying NOT to get on the trailer ahead of him, although sometimes he seems to get further in with those front feet if someone "leads" him in. Anyone have good suggestions as to a cue that he may resond to more readily than this whip thing if he IS desensitized to it? I am ready to be more aggressive with him, but I am worried about him hitting his head if he rears up or getting hurt....what's TOO startling? Thanks! Daisy |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 9:22 am: I would again suggest that you lead the horse onto the trailer a few times, just like you lead him on the ground. Don't get in front and try to "pull" him on. Put a chain over his nose and apply pressure if he stops or tries to pull back. Immediately release the pressure when he goes forward. If you reach an impasse aggressively back him out, as someone previously suggested, then immediately give him the "go forward" que. This horse is just playing games with you. I would keep him moving, either forward and back. Keep your cool and stay firm, but DON"T just let him stand there! He's winning every time you do. |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 10:33 am: Daisy,This is a little difficult, because unless I'm there I really can't see the whole situation or even the expression of the horse, i.e. if he is just being disrespectful, doesn't understand, or just plain scared from a previous bad experience. I also don't quite know how you're standing when you're trying to load your horse. If I'm at the back of my trailer (on the ground), I have the lead in my left hand (directing the horse) and the end of the lead rope or whip in my right hand (supporting). Do you have a head bumper for your horse, or could you borrow one in case he gets overly excited? It sounds as if you've already done alot of work with go forward ques, backing ques, etc. If you feel your horse is being more or less disrespectful, and doesn't have any deep seated trailering fears, I think I would forget about the continuous tapping for now, especially if you have been progressively tapping harder and he has become desensitized. Try directing him into the stall with your left hand holding the lead and with your right supporting arm stretched out holding the whip or the end of the lead line, leaving about a 3' tail. Since he knows how to put his front feet in, he should go that far. Cluck or "kiss" to him (whatever you use), could tap just a little, to urge him forward. If he acts like he has no intention of even trying to go forward, YOU make the decision to back him out. Repeat again and again. If he acts like he doesn't even want to put those front feet in the trailer but is facing that way, that's when I'd give him a good solid whack on the rump. If he starts going backwards, I think I'd help him along, i.e. chasing him backwards or sideways or small circles, and only letting him relax when he is standing at the end of the trailer with his head facing the stall opening. I'd direct him towards the stall opening again. Again, if he acts like he is going to try, I'd take the pressure off him and gently urge him forward. I also might add that I use about a 12' lead line, and use the end of it instead of a whip. If I end up chasing my horse with it, I hold my horse loosely enough (about 2-1/2' from the shank) and rapidly twirl the end of the rope (about a 3' tail). I don't try to hit my horse with it, but it becomes his responsibility to get out of the way. If he doesn't, it ends up tagging him. If you try this method, make sure you watch carefully and don't get in kicking or striking range. Once I got him in the trailer, I'd allow him to stand and relax for a few minutes, and this is when I'd pat and praise him. If he backs out on his own without your asking him to, I'd let him come out, but I'd make it real uncomfortable when he got out, i.e. starting the whole process all over again. I love my horses, and I cringe when I see horses being abused, but there is a major difference between a horse fearing it's handler and respecting it's handler. I understand your horse is an Arab, and they can be "hotter" than some other breeds, but your horse still needs to respect you enough to at least try. Although this technique has worked many times for me in the past, I hesitated to post my thoughts because I would hate to see you or anyone else getting hurt because they put more pressure on their horse. Obviously, not all horses have the same temperment, and can react differently so you need to adjust as you go along. If you try it, watch carefully for the slightest tries by your horse, and don't get hurt yourself. Good luck! |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2000 - 11:53 am: Goodness, I have to add "thank yous" to Alexa, Dr. O and Emily, too! I scrolled up after adding my response and didn't realize there were more posts there! :) THANKS!Although you realize by now that I am a little confused! Dr. O, I agree with you a lot about the asking him to get right back on when he does get on for me, but that's not working. After the 2x that he has gotten on for me, when I've asked him again right away, he's balked and we've had to start all over, and then I had to quit without being able to get him back on. Like you said, I was trying to reinforce the lesson of getting on. Emily, I also agree with you about taking CONTROLLED steps forward. I have worked with him repeatedly on the ground without the trailer on asking with the whip for those forward steps, and he responds perfectly. I feel as though he understands the cue, but when we're in front of the trailer he's trying to "escape" by moving in other directions.... So now I think I just need everyone's help on figuring out what would be a better "adverse stimuli" as you put it Dr. O....to me there is a fine line between being firm and being mean/cruel. For example, my father-in-law used to haul race horse for a living. He has had to ask all sorts of horses all sorts of ways to get on a trailer...and as you can imagine, some of his meothods weren't so nice. He's advised me to put a chain under my horse's lip(on his gums), so that when he pulls back it puts pressure in a more sensative area; he's advised me to put a pitch fork behind him so that when he backs up he pokes himself, etc. etc. etc. But those things seem cruel and excessive to me. So where is that line? What things work and what is too harsh? Is a chain on his gums really that different than a chain over his nose? It feels a whole lot different to me! Help! Daisy |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2000 - 2:17 am: Ok, I was going to initially respond to this post but got busy and now I see its still in discussion. So here's my 2 cents worth. Sorry this is long, I probably could have given more details on what I did but here's the gist of it.I just recently trained a very large 16.2 hand WB to load in my new 2H Slant trailer and she was in a trailer accident as a 2 year old. Sounds like you need a stronger motivator. Food is not a good option. Does your horse tie? This is important because I tried every method in the book and had the same problem of getting half way in and then she'd get out. I finally had to be 'creative' and put the pressure on. My mare does tie, I also have DrOp down feed windows so this made a difference but I tied her to the last tie spot in the trailer so that she could stand just outside the back. Then I got my very long lunge whip. I stood at the second window, the divider was shut and I did have my pony in the first stall. Standing at the window (so she could see me) I flicked the long lunge whip behind her which began to aggravate immediately. I never whipped her or touched her w/ it, just kept flicking it and I did crack it once and she jumped right in, we did this several times, in and out in and out, she would bring her head out the DrOp window and I would praise her by stroking her forehead. She does "BACK" on command and would recommend anyone teach their horse verbal commands as well. She has always been a sensitive responsive horse, this is not the super quiet tolerant type. (Mostly TB) I did not close the rear door but let her stand in there and stroked her head. The next time we practiced, about two weeks later, I wanted her to go all the way in to the front, this time I ran the lunge line thru the front window, she could see me up in the front but wouldn't come in so I started the lunge whip flicking, about 2 flicks and she was all the way in and standing very calm. I went around and went inside moved her over (she moves over to the command "Over" and light touch to the hip. ) Then I backed her out, walked her back in , in and out, in and out, in and out, maybe ten times. Then quit. She now walks right in the trailer, I can close her in, shut all the doors and she is ready for a ride around the neighborhood. This was a horse that jumped into the feeder of a 2H straight load trailer and then flipped over as a two-year old. I love my slant. My horse now gets in like a pro (well almost) and I am confident that she will self load in no time to verbal "Load Up" Don't know if this will help, but after spending 2- 2 hour sessions w/ this mare previously I felt she needed another "motivator". Good Luck, Heidi |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2000 - 9:28 am: Heidi,So your motivator was the lunge whip, and the purpose of keeping her tied was so that she'd only be able to go forward? I tried using the lunge whip Sunday morning and cracking it behind my horse once he had his two front feet on (thinking to startle him forwards before he could think to go any other direction-he lunges very well, and responds to this whip already so I thought it could work) and he just got very upset and went vigorously BACK and then started rearing. Not a pretty picture. I'm at a loss on what to do. I would be afraid that by tying him at the front, wouldn't I just be putting that pressure on his head that will make him back even harder and faster? Remember we talked earlier about that positive attititude? I think mine got lost somewhere back amidst the tapping! Ugh. |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2000 - 11:50 am: Been reading your posts and the various advises given. The long and short of it is that your horse has lost all respect of you. Getting it back is going to require the assistance of someone with more experience. Don't be ashamed of seeking professional help. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 4, 2000 - 10:04 am: HI all,I figured it out! The John Lyons training that I was trying to do, I wasn't doing properly. The idea behind what he does is that you have to teach each foot to load and unload, and I had thought that if he got the two front feet in he was doing great! But he wouldn't do that consistently. And then, when he would get confused as to what I wanted, I expected more of him, instead of making the lessons simpler! So last night, I just kept asking and kept asking and asking and asking, and don't you know....he got it! I just tried to be as consistent and simple as I could! And you know, when he'd start going backwards or sideways, I'd ask him to go forward with that whip more aggressively, which made him MORE confused, and aggitated which just made everything worse! By the time we were done last night, he went on and off perfectly....YEA! Thank you to everyone for all your advice and help! Daisy |
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 8, 2000 - 1:53 am: I am very glad that your patience and persistence paid off. Hooray. Best wishes on all your trailering adventures.Sincerely, Heidi |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2000 - 11:39 am: Altho this seems to be a day late and dollar short, I just now caught up with this discussion. I had some of the same adventures Daisy had, but thankfully nowhere as severe. It was informative to read all the techniques used.I've observed that my thoroughbred is not very comfortable with enclosed spaces. He also seems to have a knack for "forgetting" that he has to accomplish some task if he hasn't been asked to do it for awhile, like loading on a trailer or standing still for the farrier. It takes many many repetitions for him to ingrain a task to where he will respond on cue no matter what the interval since last time (particularly if he thought it was a crackpot idea in the first place). He does much better if a task becomes a regular part of life. So, having recently acquired a three-horse slant, I have been loading/offloading him regularly even if we aren't going anywhere. I often do this just before breakfast or supper, and feed him his favorite part of the meal (sweet feed) in the trailer once he is in place (i.e. no leading with the grain bucket). He has calmed down noticeably both loading and standing - he used to be quite anxious just standing in the trailer. I think we will have to take many more trips before he chills out about the moving part, and we also need to see how he reacts with his Arab buddy loaded on (whom we have also been practice-loading and feeding in the trailer). I think my next step will be to run the engine (a diesel, puts out a nice clatter) while he is on board, to get him used to that, and then a few laps around the block. So Daisy, now that your horse is over the first hump, maybe this is of use to you in keeping your him trained, maybe not. Best wishes. elb |
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Posted on Monday, Apr 10, 2000 - 2:41 pm: I was thinking of this when loading my mare to go to a show.Typically, I put some sweet feed in a small container, let her get a whiff of it and lead her on the trailer - one attempt is usually all it takes if I let her take a moment to manure before loading (she is very fastidious, LOL). Once on, I put the grain in her bucket on the trailer while someone closes the butt bar. The point of my message is that you get a "routine" and stick with it. We were leaving the show yesterday and she said, "No, you don't have the grain so I'm not leading on ..." the moment I picked up the grain, she walked right on. My theory is that the "heavenly aroma" of the grain clears her brain of fears ... LOL. Whatever works for you is the best way to do it. Cheers. |
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2000 - 7:19 am: Stay calm, hold the lead rope from the halter firmly.Tie a soft rope from a corner of the trailer,get someone to apply gentle pressure on the rump while you reassure from the front, perhaps bribe with a little hay. We load recalcitrant horses like this and after a couple of times the problem is practically over. Stay calm. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 6:44 pm: i have a good one learned by mistake!!!!!! we were trying to load our thoroughbred gelding. he refused to get into the trailer. he would moon walk backward very quickly. well the last time he did it he butt into our electric wire fence and after that he always went in without a problem! it was luck for us! he always walks in now!!!!!! an easy loader. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 16, 2001 - 7:03 pm: ok, we have another horse loaded by prior owner by dragging her in .......they threaded a long rope tied to the halter through the trailer manger window and tied it to the ball of the trucks hitch. the trailer was not hooked up yet. then they dragged her inside. now i have to help her to get in without force. wish me luck!!!!!!! |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2001 - 9:16 pm: And then sometimes they will shock you by how easily they get on. Last November I was going to take my yearling filly to a futurity. After all the horror stories I've heard, I decided to practice. I hitched the trailer, led her up, she looked it over while leaning in. After giving her a chance to get very calm, I asked her to go forward and got the "No, thanks I'm comfortable here". A couple of light taps with a dressage whip and she was in the trailer.Now backing out, that's another story. Since the trailer is a slant load I ended up leading her out after I got nervous standing around in the trailer with her.(she was fine). |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 17, 2001 - 10:20 pm: Jackie, just a word of caution. I once hauled a horse in a stock trailer and got into the habit of turning him around rather then backing him out. This became so ingrained in him to the point that he would not back out. It was more difficult correcting that problem than teaching him to load initially. There will come a time when you will need to back her out so finish the lesson. |
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2001 - 8:51 am: I agree that you are correct. She does understand the backup signal on the ground, I just need to take some time and translate it to the trailer. I was also leaving both doors open(slant load) and maybe shutting one will focus her on backing up.It was my fault that after standing there for a awhile then asking her repeatedly to back up I got a little nervous (yearling filly, 1st time in trailer) and exited the best way I could. Good advice, thanks. |
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 18, 2001 - 11:56 am: Two more cents on what worked for me with balky loaders:I used Dr.O's technique with great success on a horse I bought last summer. He was particularly (tho thank god not violently) reluctant to load - as soon as Shandy saw the trailer, which was a good 40 yards away, he started backing up and dancing around. It took a couple sessions with Dr. O's technique (first session to get him near the trailer, then another to get him on) but after that he loaded. However, he seemed nervous about being on board, and since I wanted him to ride with my highly excitable Thoroughbred without either of them starting a riot, I decided some more training and acclimitization was called for. I spent every evening for a week or so feeding the horses in my 3 horse slant to get them used to it, and hopefully to have pleasant associations with the trailer. I broke this down into a lot of small steps, but the basic process was: Initially I loaded/unloaded each horse separately, several times each, lots of praise and a few treats once they were in place (did not "bribe" them to get on, just tried to make being in the right place a happy experience). On last load for each horse, fed each their grain ration. Then I worked on loading both horses, again lots of praise and (now random) treats when everyone was in place and quiet, on last loading fed both horses. Did this several nights in a row, and by the end they were quite eager to get on board. (In fact, I had to actually slow them down a bit.) After that I tapered off on the feeding (i.e. they don't get fed everytime they get on board) but occasionally I still do it just as a reinforcer. They pretty much load like champs now, even after long periods at home with no road trip. elb |
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