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Discussion on Afraid of Velcro | |
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Posted on Friday, Jun 9, 2000 - 5:36 pm: Trying to sack out my 6 year old gelding QH. Apparently it wasn't done very well. I've only had him 1 year. Everything is going well except when we get to the "VELCRO". Any suggestions on how to get him past Velcro without freaking out?? |
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Posted on Friday, Jun 9, 2000 - 7:51 pm: Steven,How are you doing the sacking? When a horse is frightened of something, I rather like to work with it in a round pen. First, I put the horse in the pen and let him get over his happy feet. Then I encourage him to hook up with me via body language (ala just about every NH). The activity is not to wear him out, but to have him decide being with me is a safe place. Then, the object that is scarey, I'll proceed to "demonstrate" in very small chunks. He can run off if he wants whan I show it too him. Then as he settles, I invite him back in and try again. As long as the horse isn't restrained and I can present the item in small enough increments, I've found this to work nicely over several sessions. As far as sacking out in general, I'm not a real big fan because I figure I never can show the horse enough different things to cover what he'll come across in a life time. Instead, I try to build the trust in me as the leader so that when something scares him, I can say, "Yes, I understand. But let's try it again." Most of this approach is a meld of Mark Rashid, Linda Tellington Jones and my old German trainers, LOL. But, it seems to work okay. Cheers. |
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 1:05 pm: Most of the items (plastic bags, ropes, spray bottles) I am showing him in the round pen. Although, I have been keeping him on the lead rope. So far he just backs and snorts at the items. Whenever I get to the velcro (flymask)he panics, rears, bolts you name it. I'm guessing he had a bad experience with a fly mask at one time. I'll try without the lead rope. I've also tried holding grain or treats in the same hand as the flymask, but nothing is tempting enough to get close to the flymask. |
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 2:07 pm: We have a similar problem with spray bottles. My mare, who is usually very easy going, has a skin problem on her back legs which the vet has told us to treat with frontline spray. it works great but show her th spray bottle and she freaks - full height rearing, rolling eyes, snorting, the works. we are applying it with a paint brush at the moment and that is fine, so the actual stuff isn't the problem, it's the spray, but we need to sort this out for the future. |
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 8:55 pm: I applaud you in that you are taking the time to desensitize your horse. My 5 year-old mare was sent to a "cowboy" to be broken (before I bought her!). That person's practice was to tie things to the horse and leave it alone until it stopped running. It didn't work with my mare, and she is now deathly afraid of anything that rustles.I've tried everything I can think of to teach her that plastic bags, nylon daysheets, and even my windbreaker aren't dangerous, but she is so traumatized that I haven't been able to get anywhere. After a lot of effort, we were able to get her to accept a nylon-covered horse blanket, but that blew up in our faces one day when a big puff of wind came while we were removing the blanket. She took off and ran from it in her 24 x 24 corral, and ultimately fell down. The result was a torn rear suspensory. She was 5 months pregnant at the time, so we've given her lots of time to heal and let her do the broodmare thing. I won't be body clipping her this winter, and I plan to enlist the help of "natural horsemansip"-type trainer after the baby is weaned. (It's due any day!) |
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 11:46 pm: I have a mare who was frightened of the velcro sound at first. I just stood around--at a distance at first--and tore it apart a zillion times. Went a little closer, repeated; went still closer, repeated. Back the next day--same thing. It took a few days but she could care less now. Wears her mask, flysheet, whatever you like.Did the same thing with a spray bottle. (I filled it with water for practicing.) It seems it's more the sound that bothers them than anything else. Oh, and clippers. Same procedure. The mare is a real hard sell about funny noises. |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 9:09 am: Hi Steven, Gay, et al,Eveo's advice is GREAT... Not only is this a wonderful and effective approach for introducing routine stuff like clippers and flyspray, but this IMO is what it *takes* when there has been a trauma, and having scary stuff tied to you certainly counts as one. (Gay, your poor mare!) Sometimes you have to chunk things down to almost microscopic increments. You might have to begin at the other end of the barn, ripping apart velcro while your horse eats his dinner. Gay, JMO, but I'd be wary if the natural horsemanship trainer promises a fix in one session, or immediately heads to the roundpen with your mare... I've a real reluctance these days to use the roundpen approach when there has been a trauma, because forcing the issue can be as traumatic as the original event that caused the problem was. Frequently, you can get a horse to *tolerate* something, but it never gets much better than that as he's simply choosing the lesser of evils, and the process can be very stressful psychologically (and sometimes physically). I think it diminishes trust in the handler as well. Best of luck. |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 11:11 am: Thanks, Amy. The trainer I plan to work with uses the item on a stick, at first a significant distance away, with holding the horse on a 12 foot rope halter/lead. The owner is braced in such a way that the horse can't get away, and the horse gradually learns to "give" to the pressure of the rope. Very gradually the scary item gets closer. He said it may take days. I like the fact that I have the rope to control the horse and that 2 people are involved, because that I way I can limit the physical antics she does to get away. And she's seeing me, the whole time, calmly standing there and "supporting her". Does this sound reasonable to you?Given her suspensory injury 6 months ago, I'm not eager to work her in the round pen. We've done round pen work in the past, and she's very good at it and with me, as long as no loose plastic is involved and I don't wear my windbreaker. I even rode her in the mountains last summer (when she'd only had 7 months of training, and that as a dressage horse) and she was an angel. Nothing spooked her (even wild turkeys that we scared into flight), and she only glared at the wild deer. Fortunately, there's not much plastic up there ;-D. |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 12:54 pm: Hi Gay,Hmmm, I'm hoping that your asking me if something sounded reasonable to me was more than a rhetorical question, 'cuz I've been thinking about it and I'm gonna answer it. :-D I'm glad that your trainer isn't planning on giving her the "tolerate it or run" choice, which isn't much choice at all, when you think about it, but I still feel a bit uneasy with the approach, given that this mare has had a serious fright--to the point of injury--with this stuff. It seems that when something has developed a really bad association for a horse, as plastic has for your girl, then simply making "the wrong thing difficult" isn't enough. You have to do something to actually change the association to a more positive one. Otherwise, what you seem to get is merely a temporary, often very bracey, tolerance that disappears when something pushes the horse over the edge--ie the big puff of wind when you were taking the blanket off. My feeling is that she had merely reached a stage of worried tolerance at that point, and the wind was simply too much. Simply giving a horse a release from rope pressure (or from running around the pen) is not the same thing as creating a good association--it's merely the removal of an unpleasant one. Does this make sense? A lot of folks don't seem to see this distinction, and it's an important one. I am working with a mare at the moment who had had a wreck the first time she was saddled (saddle turned under her belly, she cut her hindlegs up kicking at it, was bawling and squealing and peeing, etc)... they had gotten her to where she would *tolerate* it again but that was all. This was one of the tensest mares I've ever seen--an accident waiting to happen--because even though she would allow it to be strapped on again (through roundpenning), the saddle still had really bad associations for her. She was extremely worried. In a situation like this, food can be one of your best tools. Nothing creates positive associations more quickly than feed, except perhaps sex for a stallion but that's a tricky reinforcement to use. LOL! I've used feed for years when there has been a trauma, to try to change the connotations (of the trailer, the saddle, the clippers, whatever) to good ones. This is not bribery--that's too big a misunderstanding to even get into. Anyway, this mare now eats her meals while wearing a saddle, and seems much more like a "normal" horse about the whole idea, but this has occurred over time and has taken LOTS of meals/treats and a very gradual "sacking" process (lots of reps of simply placing the saddle gently on her back, then removing it. At first I didn't even use the saddle, just the pad.) Always there has been food in the picture--I want the saddle and the saddling process to be linked up with something pleasant. If you simply restrain the animal and force it to accept the thing that frightened it, you're back to building that surface-level tolerance again. Another danger is that your mare will see you, with nothing better to offer her than a release from pressure, as someone else who is "in on it" rather than as a friend and supporter. I like one of Mark Rashid's quotes: "sure, he knows you let him out of that bind, but he also knows that you put him IN IT in the first place!" That's what I was meaning about the trust aspect. If your trainer is set on approaching it this way, it would sure help your mare if you could be slipping her treats each time she seems even vaguely aware of the scary item. Better still, would be for the trainer to walk slowly around the pen AWAY from you and the mare, and allow you to FOLLOW him (and the scary item) rather than it following you. Horses can have amazing turn-arounds when they are in the position of "driving away" the thing they are frightened of. This builds confidence, sometimes very quickly. The most intimidating approach you could take, would be for the trainer to approach her with the scary thing while you try to restrain her movements. Okay, sorry this got so long. Apparently I have already become one of those people who writes long-winded answers on the internet, but there are just so many aspects to these things. Thanks for reading this. ~Amy |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 4:01 pm: I just wanted to mention that in Linda Tellington-Jones TEAM book she does quite a lot of good things to help horses get over their fear. There's even a section where she teaches the horses to walk under and over plastic sheets. (She uses food rewards too to help them) Might be worthwhile checking out.Agnes |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 10:12 pm: Amy--Your response is incredibly well appreciated. I like your rational, and it does make more sense to me. I've never looked at food as bribery (I have a 10 year old dressage mare with very poor past training who becomes worried that she's "not doing enough"--a sugar cube does far more to reassure her than any verbal praise, so I look for reasons to give her one when she starts getting tense and worried).I've never heard of Mark Rashid before. What part of the country does he come from, and what type of work does he do? I really really like the quote, because it's something that's been bothering me all along. And Agnes, which Linda Tellington-Jones book? I have several, but none have the exercise you mention. Thanks so much to both of you. This is my very favorite horse to ride, and I hurt for her fear that was caused so needlessly by the ignorance of those who first backed her. Gay |
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2000 - 11:01 pm: Hi GayThe Tellington-Jones book I was talking about was her first (I think) book called An Introduction to the Tellington-Jones Equine Awareness Method: The TEAM Approach to Problem-Free Training which was written by LT-J and Ursula Bruns. She also has a book called Let's Ride! which looks more like a kids book but it also has a whole section on ground work including a "confidence course" that shows the horses going over bridges, tires, and over and under plastic. Her latest book, called Improve Your Horses Well Being, also shows the ground work, including plastic on the sides of a bridge, going through water etc. It might be really beneficial to your mare to do the TEAM work from the beginning--- if you teach her the labyrinth, etc. first from the ground then you can go on to introducing the other elements. When I lived back east I had a horse that was really nervous of everything and I had a TEAM practitioner come out and teach us the basics (it was actually Peggy Cummings who was living in Penn. at the time)and it made a tremendous difference with my horse. The TEAM work can be continued during riding also. If you need the phone number of TEAM headquarters in NM to order any additional books or videos, it should be listed in the back of your other LT-J books, or you can email me. I've also read Mark Rashid's first two books, "Considering the Horse" and "A Good Horse is Never a Bad Color" and I enjoyed them both. Just bought his third called "Horses Never Lie" although I haven't read it yet.(Found out about it in the product reviews on this site) I think you'll get more practical info from the LT-J books tho. Hope this is of help to you. |
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2000 - 12:50 pm: Hi Gay,Looks like you are getting lots of terrific suggestions here, but I LOVE Amy's. I must be honest, I am biased to this type of approach because I, too, have used it many times successfully. The latest was getting my QH gelding used to the clippers. I put them in his feed bucket (it is attached to the stall wall under his hay feeder), shut off, at first. Then, turned them on and just stood there reinforcing him that it was ok. Obviously, I didn't have his grain in the feed bucket at this time, but had his hay bin full. I did this for awhile and then gradually picked them up and rubbed his body (not his head) with them. Gradually progressed to his head, legs, etc. Now he stands like a perfect gentleman, even when I do his nose. PATIENCE and Persistance are going to be key tools for getting you mare accustomed to velcro. Maybe even moreso than the food. Hope this help & provides some encouragement. Take Care, Julie |
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Posted on Monday, Jun 12, 2000 - 1:18 pm: I think Amy’s and Eveo’s posts are so sensible, and sensitive. It is so important to do things slowly, quietly, over and over again, until the horse really understands that the item/behaviour/whatever is safe and will not harm him.I also had problems with Velcro. My first thoroughbred had always worn English leather brushing boots, with straps. I eventually decided to buy the new synthetic boots, with Velcro, that could be put in the washing machine. However, the first time I decided to put them on, the noise when unwrapping the Velcro gave me a fright, and my horse jumped in the air, went to the back of his box, and said no ways was I putting this noisy monster anywhere near him. I did very much as Eveo suggested, plus I left them around where he could see them and touch them with his nose – hung them from the paddock fence, left them lying over the front of his box, and eventually, he totally accepted them. Let’s face it, it is a horrible noise, it makes my teeth shiver, so it is understandable that a horse needs time to get used to it. It is always better if possible to allow a horse to explore new things/new “territory” in his own time . Once he has made up his mind that there is nothing to worry about, he will always accept it and move on [to the next scary thing!]. Watch young horses exploring the world – or older horses in new surroundings; they will always sniff and touch things repeatedly in order to satisfy themselves that the thing is safe – if you let them do it themselves, for as long as they want to do it, they can really convince themselves that the item is not going to attack them. I actually don’t like this “sacking out” – I had never heard of it before coming to this site, so I don’t know if it is a new thing or just an American thing or if I am just totally uninformed!! I do read British horse magazines regularly, but had never read of this procedure in them. It seems very harsh and doesn’t seem to take into account the nature and sensitivity of the horse. Amy’s statement that nothing creates positive associations more quickly than feed is so true, and patience, quiet, repetition, and treats, are far more likely to make a horse feel safe and build his confidence in himself, and you, than the sacking out principles. After all, if you are terrified of spiders and snakes and crawly things – would it really work with you if someone rubbed them all over you, held you at the end of a rope and waved them at you, or chased you round an enclosed pen with them? You would probably lose your mind – I know I would. I also love Mark Rashid's thinking, and like it when he says that the simple answer is that we need to find a way to be dependable for our horses, and do what is best for them in all situations. Take care of them, stand up for them. Thank heavens so many people on this site feel like that! |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 13, 2000 - 2:11 pm: There are so many good suggestions here, I don't really have anything new to add. Just wanted to mention that "sacking out" may mean different things to different people. Desensitizing may actually be a better word. I have done some Pat Parelli training with my mare, and the first game is the "friendly game". You have to be able to touch your horse anywhere on its body with your hand - usually not difficult, if you have been grooming your horse regularly. But it progresses to touching it all over with the "carrot stick" ( similar to Linde Tellington Jones' "wand"), then with the whip end, also with the stick and a plastic bag tied to it. The approach is always: advance and retreat! In other words, if the horse gets nervous, you go back to a previous exercise that it is comfortable with. I can now flick a rope all over my horse, around its legs, everywhere. I can touch her all over with a crinkly plastic bag. I do believe this has helped her be less spooky on the trail. However, at no time is the horse restrained and forced to accept this. In fact, you do all this with a 12 foot lead rope losely draped over your arm (work in an enclosed area, in case something should spook the horse). I believe that Mark Rashid's approach of introducing new things in the round pen is similar in principle. |
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 14, 2000 - 11:48 pm: I second Eve's advice. I too had a young filly who hated her fly mask. Worse was that I could get it on but not off so tied a piece of hay twine to the tag so I could remove at a safer distance. I could also remove it quickly (like a bandaid) instead of feeling for the leading edge which cued the filly of what was going to happen next. I also got her used to the noise outside of her stall. Rewarding with treats while making the noise in a non-threatening way also works. She is so "cured" that the velcro crossties that hang outside her stall are usually inside her stall because she likes to rip them down. |
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2000 - 12:20 pm: I would like to vote for Amy's approach. It takes time, but you never lose and and you gain complete trust from your horse. Food and firm kindness can solve the worst problems. When I first laid eyes on my stallion, he was vicious. He didn't just bite, he attacked! pawing and striking included. Once you were on his back he was great, but entering his stall and tacking up was a dangerous proposition. As soon as you dismounted look out! He was in serious need of a friend who accepted him for what he was and what he could be with understanding. I gave him the choice to come to me or not to come, at first from 10 feet behind a stout metal door; I had to throw his treats in to him he was that dangerous. I did nothing unless he allowed it and never required success at any time. Carrots were the answer. Carrots for stall cleaning, carrots for grooming, carrots for watering, carrots even to let the feed boy in for 30 sec to dump his food. No one approached without a carrot. No carrot, no contact. An endless supply of carrots and absolutely no punishment no matter what he tried to do. 2 yrs. later he is still gaga for carrots but no longer violent. He does a great song and dance routine for his carrots which only come once a day now and accepts no substitutes but he can be handled without them, always keeps his feet on the ground never kicking and hasn't tried to even nip anyone for over six months. I took him in Egypts first endurance race in May and the vets never guessed at his past history. I kept my end of the bargain. I bought him and he never sees a day without his precious rabbit food. |
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