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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Resistance to Stopping: Whoa Problems » |
Discussion on Controlling competitive horse | |
Author | Message |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 1:13 am: We recently bought an 18-year-old 1/2 Arabian retired barrel horse named Firefly for my 12-year-old daughter. We've ridden him on the trail and he is wonderful for her. We also took him to our saddle club's arena, and he behaved like a gentleman as my daughter walked, then trotted and then slowly loped him through barrel and pole bending patterns. Our problem resulted when we attended a recent saddle club event, and another rider started practicing with her horse around the barrels in the arena. This tipped off Firefly that he was (incorrectly) at a rodeo, and he got all fired up. When the barrel racer took a break, my daughter entered the arena with Firefly just to fun around. Firefly immediately took off at top speed and ran around the outside of the barrel pattern. My daughter, taken by surprise, was unable to stop him until he got back to the gate again, and this really shook her confidence. I need to stress again that we'd walked, trotted and loped the same pattern in the same arena a few times weeks earlier, and Firefly behaved nicely. The only other horse in the arena at that time was my young mule, and we were working only on stops and turns at a walk and trot, nothing speedy. Clearly, seeing the barrel horse at a gallop is what sent Firefly careening. I'm trying to figure out the best way to deal with this. I assume we'll need to recreate the scenario to work him out of this. Should we do some groundwork first? If so, what exactly should we do? And, most importantly, if he takes off again, what's the best way to reprimand him? He really is a wonderful horse--we just need to know what to do when he gets excited around "the competition." One of our saddle club friends thinks he will respond to a technique called a half-halt, and Firefly did pick it up nicely. However, it seems paltry as a deterrent if Firefly really wants to go. Any thoughts anyone?I've attached a photo, so you can see how attached my daughter has become to this horse, and he to her. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 1:26 am: I incorrectly stated the technique from the saddle club friend as a "half-halt." It was called a "single-rein stop" or "one-rein halt" or something like that. Anyway, the idea is to use one rein to get Firefly to DrOp and flex his head. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 6:48 am: I do not understand, Heidi. You bought a horse who was bred, selected for, trained and raced for years in barrel racing.You take him on the trail and he is magnificent. You bring him in for training and warm up in an arena with barrels and an inexperienced kid on board and he behaves like a gentleman. Then you show him what is done today in the arena, ie racing, and he takes off doing exactly what he is meant to do, still stopping when he figured out that something was wrong with his rider. Why reprimand him? What was his fault? |
Member: Canderso |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 8:43 am: Firefly sounds like a wonderful horse.Following on with Chrisos' line... if you NEVER want him to barrel race again, then start to retrain him -not reprimand, and certainly NOT a one-rein halt - but retrain him that he doesn't have to do the barrel thing any more. But if you do want to barrel race him, then be aware of the situation and don't give him the signals if you don't want the response. (I wonder what would happen if, in the same situation, your daughter led him into the arena, stood for a while watching things, then got back on.) |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 9:21 am: He obviously isn't retired... He does need to learn on and off. But more importantly your daughter needs to realize that this is what he used to do for a living. and he obviously loved it. But you and she can control your horse not to do that.Those barrels turned him on. and while seeing another horse doing it, felt he was next in line. You unwittingly set him up to fail because if he was trained to do that, than shazzaam he's gonna do that. The problem here was that your daughter didn't have the control she thought she does. You will probably be able to recreate and get a skilled rider to help you in this but when he sees barrels in an arena, he will turn "ON"... And now its just a matter of how you can control it. Like you said you loped him nicely around it the first time. when your daughter went back in he figured its time to run. She didn't feel the change of his body to anticipate this, nor hold him back to say, nope this is just practice, and we lope not run. The horse will learn this, its just a matter of practice. Your daughter is right to feel her confidence level DrOp. She FELT the power of the horse. Turn it into a good lesson and positive. but to help her regain her confidence keep her out of the arena and the barrels for a bit. The half halt is a good training method as is a one rein turn stop, but its not the horse that needs the training of these aids, its your daughter. If at any time during his run, she had known these aids he would have stopped i bet. If this horse is trained in barrels, i'm sure he has been trained in these methods also. |
Member: Dres |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 9:58 am: you can try all the above, but the bottom line is the safety of your daughter and well being of a horse that had a job that he loved.. As I found out in a post a month or so back, some horses just don't want that job or this job.. remember the pony that won't jump post.. Well she won't .. I found out a little history on her and she has never liked to jump ever.. so why have the frustration of trying / retraining or other wise.. I guess what I am saying.. is if this guy is great on trails or arena riding when no one is competing then so be it.. sometimes you can't take that fire out of them if its something they loved.. Keeping your daughters confidence is priority here, once that is gone its very hard to get back... just my thoughts ..On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 11:41 am: You are all giving me good, hard feedback. It's just what I need. I would like to give you more background on the horse and rider. I also need to explain that joj's understanding is correct--Firefly behaved in every circumstance for my daughter until he saw the other horse running the barrels. My daughter did not cue him to take off after mounting--that was his idea--and he refused to stop when she pulled back on the reins. We believe the only reason he stopped at all is because he thought "his turn" was over.Now, here's the full scoop on the horse: Firefly was a champion 4-H gaming horse in his younger years. His career spanned two teenage siblings. He then moved with the older of the two siblings to a working cattle ranch, where he was used for herding and extreme trail riding. He did parades, gave pony rides to little kids, and someone was even married on him. So, CherylA, you are correct in saying he is a wonderful horse. As for my daughter, she began riding on a rare super-broke (and now sadly deceased) Shetland pony in her preschool and early elementary years. She then moved onto a Type A 12.3 hand mule that was scared of everything. With minor help from me, she turned him into a dependable trail and parade animal and took blues in all her 4-H novice riding classes at her first real horse show. She grew about five inches in one year, and so reluctantly passed on the mule to her little brother. Since she was "bitten" by the show bug, we went looking for something that she could both trail ride with our family and that could do well in the ring, too. That's how we happened upon Firefly. Just so you know, my daughter still rides him on the trails just fine. It's her confidence in the ring that went down the hole. I agree that my daughter's safety comes first. It really sounds like she needs lessons again. We did try this when we first got Firefly, but the instructor was a poor fit for the student and turned her off to lessons all together. After reading your posts, I told her it's time to get over that experience and try another instructor. She says she is willing to do that if it means keeping Firefly. I will let her read your posts as well, so she can see the wisdom of your advice. I will be sure and let you know how it goes. We believe this horse is quite a treasure, and want to give it our best with him before throwing in the towel. |
Member: Jojo15 |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 2:46 pm: Heidi that is a whole nother thread. Instructors... I have met many, and didn't like most. I found one lady once, ONCE, who i loved and would have done anything for. So it is a tall order. Anyone can put a sign out and say "trainer". just keep searching. and don't give up. when going from fun riding to discipline there will be a bout of suffering, it goes with learning. you know? i hate to study, but love to learn....are there any books out there on training for barrels? i'd say get it and then your daughter will understand certain cues to stay away from. The way i learned barrels was backhanded so i can't say any advice would help. BUT, important things like we NEVER let the horse run a full barrel when training, till we did a number of walks, trots, lopes around them. over and over again. So that right there would mean your horse got mixed signals and took it upon himself to do what he thought. As the treat at the end of a good session, they got to run at half speed one or two full patterns. BUT that was it especially in most arenas that aren't footed properly. The only full out run we did in training was the last barrel coming home. And we would have to be able to stop on a dime, and anticipate it. Things of that nature, where your daughter can learn about, be forewarned and then be able to follow thru her control. It is a scary (but awesome) thing to be on a horse with that kind of back end power. Plus as time goes by your horse will learn more of your daughter, and vice versa. They'll bond and hopefully this is a one time episode. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 5:38 pm: joj, you are so right about instructors. I took my daughter to a different one when she was much younger, and the gal knew horses but not kids. The best one we ever had was a 17-year-old! She made learning so fun, my daughter didn't know it was a lesson. I guess I'll just need to keep looking. Thanks for your two cents. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 5:43 pm: I forgot to add that my daughter and I discussed options again, and she's going to learn gaming on my 23-year-old QH mule. This mule has seen it all, and has enough speed to sate a 12-year-old and still give her the confidence to learn the patterns at a slower pace. My daughter will continue to trail ride on Firefly and hopefully move onto him next year for gaming. I did get a good line on a trainer in the next town. Hopefully, he will be "the one." |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 11, 2006 - 6:47 pm: Great choice Heidi, Good luck for your daughter. I am sure it will all work out |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Sunday, Jun 18, 2006 - 11:50 pm: Just wanted to let you know that the trainer was an absolute gem. He noted that the gelding is dependent on a tie-down and needs some serious rework to safely carry my daughter. My mule also needs rework but will serve as a safer mount for her to learn on. She is fine with mule for the time, and has also asked that we keep the gelding until she gains enough confidence and skills to try him again. We've agreed to do this. For the record, I too will be taking lessons from the same trainer. I've owned horses over 25 years, but I've never taken riding seriously until I heard this guy. One of my "projects" is a five-year-old molly mule, and like my daughter I'll feel more confident moving ahead after I've learned more. It will be a fun and educational summer for both my daughter and I. Thanks for all your recommendations--looks like it will pay off in more ways than one. |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 10:31 am: Heidi,That's great, finding a good trainer really makes a BIG difference in your equine enjoyment. I hope he will retrain the gelding to keep his head down without the tie-down. I lump tie-downs in with mechanical hackamores and english nose bands in the "most terrible idea" category. Did you know a horse can't swim and will DrOwn with a tie-down? Just a FYI for mountain trail riders. Good day, Alden |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 12:31 pm: When my daughter improves enough on the mule, the trainer will teach her how to retrain the gelding to ride without the tie-down. She's aware that the results are iffy at his age. Everything else about the gelding--ground manners, disposition, personality--impressed the trainer. He says he's a great horse that got stuck with poor training. We're learning a lot. I'm no longer so eager to go after an older horse just because it's older. In fact, I've reconsidered selling my five-year-old mule because it seems more logical to finish her off the right way than take a chance on something else. It will be fun to work with the mule and take lessons with my daughter. Every mule-skinner mom should be so lucky! |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 2:42 pm: Ditto on Alden's post.The only use for a tiedown is when the horse throws his head very badly and the rider is in danger of being hit on the face. He who thinks that a tiedown will prevent a horse from accelerating to full speed or that it will have any training effect on the horse, is in for a big surprise. A tiedown is about the best way to develop the underside of the neck and invite the horse to travel with a hollow back. I also find it extremely dangerous should the horse stumble. He won't be able to extend his neck to balance, and going down on your face is not funny, you know. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 3:40 pm: Christos, this horse travels with a hollow back as you indicated. Please see my new thread about retraining this same horse. I always value your input. |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 5:01 pm: It shows on his picture, Heidi. All muscle on the legs and the underside of the neck, none on the topline. |
Member: Heidim |
Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 6:04 pm: Now that you point it out, I see what you mean. |
New Member: tann |
Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 3:34 pm: I am new to this site and I love all the information that is available. I just wanted to jump in on this one because I bought a mare back in Nov of 2006. She is kid broke, gentle as can be. The lady that broke her barrel raced, did pole bending and trail rode her for miles. She is the sweetest little mare I have ever had. Until this past weekend. I took her on a trail ride and didn't take any of my other horses. There were other horses there but I kept her in a stall by herself. You would have thought she was a different horse. She kept trying to get out of her stall all night and day, when I wasn't riding her. The first time out on the trail, she was jumping up & down and then she ran away with me. She stayed upset the whole weekend and acted up the whole time. I rode her every day and she never did calm down. When I got home, I called the lady I bought her from and she was as shocked as I was. She said she had never done anything like that and she has never done anything like it since I've had her. That was one reason I bought her because I have 5 other quarter horses and they are not kid broke. They are not wild but someone knows how and has rode for awhile would need to ride them. So I decided to get one quite and calm so I could take it easy and she was up until now. Does anyone have any idea what could have caused her to change or act this way? |
Member: cgby1 |
Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 8:43 pm: Tann, it sounds like she has bonded with your other horses at home. I had the same situation with my mare Shimmeree. When she was younger I took her on a camping trip and trail ride. She was wonderful but last year I took her to a week long clinic and she was a mess. We finally brought her home early. Years ago I kept a girlfriend's mares for a few days and I was amazed at how quickly they bonded. When they left my horses yelled and yelled. At the same time I had a boarder for a couple of years, his horse never bonded with any of mine, go figure! Cynthia |
New Member: tann |
Posted on Wednesday, May 2, 2007 - 9:18 pm: I lost my buckskin that I had raised and had for 14 yrs 4 yrs ago and it has really been hard for me to find the right horse again. We had a special bond & trust between us. When I found Sadie, my mare I felt like I might get that bond back with her. I loved her when I first saw her picture. Now that this has happened it is made me have second thoughts. I love all of my horses but after loosing my buckskin, I've not let myself get close to the other horses until I found Sadie. I am working with the lady that used to own her and I plan on moving my other horses. So maybe this is just a little set back and Sadie will be back to the sweet mare she has always been. And maybe by the end of this yr, Sadie and I will understand each other better and have our own special bond. I know that the changes she has gone thru can cause some things. She has been with the first owner since she was young and I got her this last Nov. So I know she is having to adjust to the changes. I am learning a lot of things that I did not know from this sight. I read about the stall resting on horses and it had a lot of information that explained why Sadie was acting the way she was when I had her put up in her stall. Why she was weaving back and forth and shaking her head. So with all the help I am getting from the site and friends like you maybe Sadie and I will get this fixed. Thank you for your comment. It's nice to know that there are others who have had to deal with some of the same situations. tann |
Member: zarr |
Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 11:18 am: Maybe she thought she was being ask to relocate again?? She came to you and trusted right away which is such a complement, but then she was taken away put in new stall,new smells, strangers about and she started to worry you were ....leaving her....? Been there with my arab but small steps forward and our bond is now absolute. Best of luck Cindy |
Member: annes |
Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2007 - 11:46 am: Was this the first time you had taken Sadie away from your place since you've had her? The reason I ask: My three horses have lots of past experience trail riding in strange places, riding with different horses, etc. But..since they have been with me, I only ride them on my farm. I've always felt they would have to relearn the "travel" thing again and riding with other horses. Sadie might just need to get used to new experiences again. She sounds like a wonderful horse. I know it is easy to get discouraged but time will show you that everything will work out. By the way, one of my horses is a buckskin gelding and I am in TN too. Good luck with Sadie! |
New Member: tann |
Posted on Friday, May 4, 2007 - 8:35 am: Update on Sadie. I took her to the vet and had her checked. She had a cyst on her right ovary and this is why she would not go out of heat. Plus he said it was making her think she was pregnant. He said that probably had a lot to do with her acting the way she was when I took her on the trail ride. He gave her a shot to make the cyst go away and at the first of the week she should be back to her regular cycle. I feel this is probably not all of the reason she was acting a little stressed and excited but I feel a lot better about things now. This isn't the first time I have taken her out trail riding. When I bought her back in Nov, I took her a few weeks after that trail riding & I've taken her to a few other places also since. They have all been different places that I like to go and took my other horses. She had not been to this last place so I guess right now every place I take her is new to her even the state of TN because she lived in Indiana! But I think things are going to work out with her. Like I said, she is a very sweet mare and we just have to figure each other out. And she is having to adjust to a lot of different changes. Thanks for all your comments and help. |