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Discussion on 2 month colt - bit of a handful - looking for advice | |
Author | Message |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 1:29 pm: Hi All,I posted earlier in May about my then week old colt kicking. Well, we have gotten him off of that, but now we are facing other issues. He is now 2 months old today, and the last few weeks, we have been struggling with him biting and rearing. I know he is a foal, and I expect the normal foal behaviour and every colt will act different, but it seems to be getting more and more out of hand and no matter what we do, nothing seems to cure him. When leading out to the pasture he will be walking perfect and then all of a sudden he will explode, and rear up, tossing his head. I shout at him NO and back him up a couple of steps, and put pressure on his halter to make him DrOp his head. We stand still for a minute, and then we walk on and he is perfect. I believe he is just full of himself and getting rid of some pent up energy, but I am looking at a way to try and deter this at a young age. I have seen 1/2 siblings of his last year at the futurity, and they did the same thing. Little angels and then all of a sudden, up they would go, cross their legs and rip the lead out of the handlers hands. As well, he has got into the habit of biting. He bites at his mom constantly, and it has gotten to the point where we cant turn our backs on him, or he will run over to us and on his way by, he takes a bite at us. Last night he caught me when I was going out of the stall, right in the back of my arm and he almost brought blood. I have shouted NO, I have pinched him back, I have done the "kicking" thing, I have clapped my hands to scare him away and lately I have been using my Parelli carrot stick but nothing seems to work. He takes none of this as a reprimand and seems to enjoy it actually! He just comes looking for more! This little guy loves attention, a real people person, and a in your face personality,but I need to get him out of the biting and looking for any advice any of you have. He has been such a quick learner to date, he leads, ties, picks up his feet, and do it all with him. When I have his halter on, and I put pressure on the halter, he will DrOp his head. He is turned out for 12 hours a day, but unfortunately, he is only turned out with his mom. She would kill my geldings if I put them out together. If anyone has any tips on what they do to deter this type of behaviour in babies, it would be much appreciated. I don't want to use much force on him, as I don't want to scare the bejeebers out of him, but I have enough bruises on me now, and don't want any more. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 1:41 pm: What a little devil? I hope you find answers quick. We never had that with our foals. |
Member: Ajudson1 |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 1:51 pm: Shawna,First of all, I hope you are wearing a helmet anytime you are around him. I've had a front hoof land on my head, and been kicked in the stomach by one of those "cute little stinkers". And it hurts, even from a tiny little hoofy!! If it comes down to scaring him, or you getting hurt, which are you going to choose?? I see nothing wrong with doing some very light lunging for respect per Clinton Anderson style. Teach him to turn and face you, give his hindquarters, and stay outa your "hoola hoop" as Clinton says. Just 5 minutes a few times a day perhaps? The sooner he learns to respect you the safer you will be. He will be 1000 lb horse before you know it, and it is easier to take care of this now. I would carry a good stout riding crop with me also. I see nothing wrong with a slap to the chest, or the other end as needed. Just be sure to rub him with it also, so he don't develope a fear of it. It's amazing, but you do this "respect" stuff with a horse, and it spills into all areas. He may act silly for a few months yet, or until gelded at least, but doing some ground work will get him thinking and he'll loose interest in some of these behaviors if he knows he can't get away with it. You can do these things with mom grazing near by, just to show him that he has to listen to you, and you are not taking mom away...yet. Good luck, be safe. |
Member: Banthony |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 2:58 pm: Shawna,I sympathize. We have only one foal this year - a filly - and she is definitely suffering from the "only child" synDrOme. In that she is adorable and has been petted and played with way too much! I have to confess I used to sometimes put the wheelbarrow between us because she hadn't gotten the idea of "personal space" yet. And she would come roaring by feet flying in all directions. When she was younger and kept up at night she would bounce like a pogo stick out to the pasture in the morning. I could sometimes put a stop to this by using a down pressure pinch (between thumb and first finger) just above the withers. The pressure seems to inhibit the desire to rear. But this might not work as well on a roudy colt. Also an arm over the neck helps. I did tap her with the sole of my shoe (not the toe!) in the shoulder muscle a couple of times (it is a sideways kick) when she came roaring up to me in the field looking like she was going to kick. Now all I have to do is pick up my foot and she veers away from me. It is a warning similar to what the mother does. There was a very good idea from someone in a thread similar to this about carrying a small section of pvc pipe and letting them contact that when they kick at you. Our filly doesn't bite because she is a little girl. The boys are bad about biting. I have had some luck with pulling whiskers at the exact time they are trying to bite ('cause you know they are going to try!) They don't know what happened but it doesn't feel good. Right now he thinks its a game and that is dangerous. We had a 3 yr old thoroughbred as a lay-up who's owner had played with him as a foal. He though biting was a game and it didn't matter how you punished him - he would come right back at you. I got several severe (broken skin) bites from him. We were able to turn our mare and foal out with her last year's foal (a filly too.) That has also helped that the foal has a playmate. I can't imagine having to keep a 2 month old colt up half the time other than illness or injury. Is there anyway you can keep him out 24/7? That is one of the big reasons he is sooo energetic. And that will get worse the older he gets. |
Member: Boomer |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 3:25 pm: I have a 2 1/2 month old filly who enjoys biting humans if they let them. And she does explode all of a sudden as well. I have been told it's normal foal behavior especially foals that are only with their mares and no other foals to play with.. |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 4:39 pm: Hi Angie & Linda,Thanks for the quick advice. I am doing all the same things I did with my mares last colt, who turned out to be an absolute angel, but all the tricks I used with him, just don't seem to be working on this little one. He isn't afraid of anything. I think he is possessed! He is bred for halter and they tend to be a little bit more fiesty and everyone keeps telling me "get used to the attitude, all those halter bred horses are a handful" but I am trying to do my best to keep this in check and raise a not so fiesty "halter" baby. The PVC pipe idea... that was a response from someone replying to my last discussion about him kicking . It worked wonders for his kicking habit, but this time, he doesn't get alarmed by it at all. I do not want to lunge him at this early age, because of his size and the halter breeding. I can take him out of mamma's site for 10 minutes when I do ground work with him and he has no issues with that. He couldn't care less where she was, and strange, but she doesn't care about him either. I think she is thankful that she has a break from him. As for the turnout, I have always brought the horses in at night, and I feel more comfortable with them in the barn at night. And when we start showing him when he is weaned, he unfortunately won't be able to be turned out 24/7. He is in a 12x24 stall, so he isn't cooped up completely, but maybe I will try to leave him out longer and see if that makes a difference. I was not thinking it would, as he is as fiesty when he comes in after 12 hours outside as he is in the morning when putting him out, but it will definitely be worth a try. The tapping with the sole of the foot, tried that "kicking" motion, but that didn't flinch him. I sat in the pasture one day for a couple of hours, and everytime he would come in my space, and he was about to try and "play" I would kick towards him, and he would run around and come right back. I really like the idea of pulling his wiskers, for the biting. I didn't think of that, but I am sure that may get a harsher response than pinching him. I think the wiskers would hurt a whole lot more. I am going to give that a try tonight and see if I get a response or not. Thank you both again. Shawna |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 4:42 pm: Hi Patricia.Too bad you didn't live closer, we could put these 2 together and let them play |
Member: Boomer |
Posted on Monday, Jul 10, 2006 - 6:13 pm: No kidding Shawna! |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 5:54 am: Our recommendations for this type behavior can be found at, Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.DrO |
Member: Banthony |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 11:58 am: Having a playmate makes a big difference. Our filly thought that people were foals and would whinny at us to come play with her. When she got her half sister she found out what a playmate really was. She is more respectful of us now.Any way your mare would tolerate a yearling or some other horse? |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 12:40 pm: You said the mare would attack the geldings if in the same paddock what about another mare? all our mares and foals were pastured together so all the mares would teach the foals manners and the foals learned from them plus they had playmates. I know you cant do this but maybe just one more mare in the paddock would teach this youngster some manners. Do you have another mare? When weaned they were put with the geldings. Just a thought. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 12:42 pm: Sorry Linda you already said that. |
Member: Alden |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 1:23 pm: Shawna,What you have is a very playful colt and he's trying to get you to play along. Because of this your timing is going to have to be very good. Also I'd only allow him to be near me when he's quite and respectful and send him away any other time. First for the leading problem, start with lateral flexing and get him nice a flexible to both the right and left. When you're leading and you see an explosion coming let him go and circle him around you as you continue walking just like nothing happened. This does two things, he won't be rearing and eventually he'll see the futility in doing circles. Our now 5 yro was like this and he leads just fine now but it did take awhile before he didn't pop off anymore. You have to see the bite coming to effectively deter it, if you react after the bite then it becomes a game or some become head shy. You need to have your hand or elbow in the way so he runs it to you. Another thing I do is let him run into my stiff fingers just above the upper lip in the nasal cartilage, this is very uncomfortable for him. Good luck A colt like this is very challenging, but in the end you'll have a nice horse. Good day, Alden |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 3:53 pm: Katrina, Linda,Unfortunately, I only have 2 geldings. My mares 3 year old, who she absolutely hates now, and my 25 year old gelding, who is getting arthritic, and I don't have the heart to put him in with this little monster but may resort to that if things persist. I don't have any other mares or other foals...but I have been trying to convince my husband that I need another one...maybe this will be a good excuse.... Alden, Your ideas sound great and will definitely give them a try. I truly adore this colt, but as you say Alden, he is very challenging. Thanks to all for your advice. Shawna |
Member: Banthony |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 4:13 pm: If the mare will tolerate your old gelding, and the gelding is mellow, that might be a good thing to try.We have a yearling thoroughbred colt in with a 22 yr old. The oldster looks like a Cushings horse and we normally have trouble keeping weight off him. Right now he looks great. The other day I saw them playing rearing games. I don't think the old man has gotten so much exercise in years. But when he has had enough he lets the colt know. |
Member: Christel |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 4:52 pm: Shawna, your colt really sounds like a handful.I have halter broken many foals, and most will rear at first, some don't seem to want to stop and I have good luck w/ this, but is not something everyone should try to do, is kinda dangerous, but it does work. What I do when they rear is very carefully make them go all the way back over themselves. You have to be perfect at the timing of this by putting enough pressure on the halter that they don't hit their poll when going over backwards, that can kill them. I hesitate to even mention this as it so dangerous, but it does work, I have done it several times and it quickly puts a stop to the rearing. On the biting, you just have to be consistent, I am not one to put up w/ biting and will smack the crap out of em for doing it, act like you are going to kill em for the 3 seconds afterward, then go back to being calm. I like the pulling of the whiskers idea, if you are able to be quick with it. I have a friend that says she stops all biting by biting back- for the life of me I cant imagine how she does it, but she said it works-lol Good luck w/ your colt, you know what they say, the harder they are to start the better they will be- hope he proves that. Chris |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 8:46 pm: For biting, I spit on their nose, which they hate, every time they act like they might bite. After a couple of times they quit trying to bite.With the rearing, I carry a light weight plastic baseball bat like they make for little kids, the moment the colt rears, I smack them in the stomach with the bat. It makes a big "smack" sounds but does little damage. This has been really effective. |
Member: Cathytay |
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 11:51 pm: The plastic bat idea just reminded me of what a trainer I know said to do for any horse that rears while you are leading them. She said that when a horse begins to rear, you should hit them hard on the lower part of the front legs - below the knees. This instantly gets them to come down because their legs are their only defense (flight) and they instinctively need to protect them. I would think the plastic bat would not hurt their legs. Sounds like that might be worth a try. |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 1:32 pm: Awesome everyone....lots of great ideas. I will definitely give them a try and let ya's know how we make out.As for the whisker pulling....I ended up with a handful of whiskers and he couldn't care less. Chris, last night out in the sand ring, he reared again, and then he turned on his back feet and he ended up going right over. (I wasn't intending for that to happen, it was his own fault that he lost footing) and I was very careful to keep a good hold on the lead and he didn't bump his head, but as soon as he got up, he calmly and sheepishly came over to me and was a complete gem to work with last night. It was as if he got his ego shattered. This morning, no biting, no rearing, and the farrier was out to give him a trim and he was a complete gentleman. I've got my fingers crossed that things are on the up turn! |
Member: 36541 |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 2:00 pm: When I was a working student on a Trakehner farm, I was taught to "tip" a foal who reared the first time they ever tried it. If you are at the foal's shoulder when they go up, take the lead toward you and shove the shoulder as you hold the lead. You have to slip the lead as they go down - you should always have your work gloves on anyway when handling foals. I have done this if needed with many foals over the years, sometimes I was really eager for the opportunity to present itself if the foal was a little like yours. If I hadn't seen it done by experienced people, I wouldn't have believed it or tried it. Sounds like you are making progress, but if he backslides, maybe someone who knows this trick will be able to help. Good luck, stay safe. Stacy |
Member: Christel |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 2:42 pm: Great news Shawna!I think getting their ego shattered sometimes is good for them, especially the ones that are full of themselves. Many times for me it has happened just like what happened to you yesterday, they do it themselves and it seems to work just as well. Chris |
Member: Leilani |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 5:15 pm: The bats used for nerf balls work well. Leilani |
Member: Savage |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 9:18 pm: The first time my horse reared (he was about 2 1/2) I scared him half to death, haha. I had just entered his pen with my halter and rope in hand and he reared straight up in front of me, I said nothing, but the second he hit the ground I swung that halter across his chest and then started screaming like a banchee with my finger pointed in his face saying "DON'T YOU EVER DO THAT AGAIN!!!"..blah, blah, blah, . I have never seen him move in reverse so fast, but it did work. When I was done I just stood there looking at him then I put the halter on and walked him out like nothing happened. he never did that again and he learned that when I raised my voice he had better stop what he was doing..never had to resort to anything else but my voice and the "Mommy" look"! haha |
Member: Qh4me |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 12:35 pm: Hi all,Update on Coolie! Well, things have improved significantly. He is no longer rearing, and when keeping a watchful eye on him, the biting has pretty well stopped. Yesterday, it was a gorgeous day and he was bothering his mom. He was full of it and wanted to play, and of course, she wanted nothing to do with it. So I said to my husband...I think it is time to put him with the other horses. So out we went, I haltered my old gelding, wispered in his ear I was sorry for doing this, but he was being moved in with mom and baby. I knew he would love to be back with his mare, but with the little devil...I wasn't so sure. Well, we put him in, and the old guy ran over to my mare and they nibbled and nickered, and then started grazing. No issues. Wow, how easy was that! Then Coolie noticed him and over he ran, started doing the baby mouth thing, then you could almost see a light bulb! Hey, this guy might want to play, so he ranted and raved, jumped, bucked and bit...Until the old guy said, enough, and he grabbed him on the neck and held on. Poor Coolie didn't know what to think, he tried to pull away, but he kept hold, for what seemed a minute. Then he let go and Coolie came over pouting to mom and started grazing. Not much fun there So that left my 3 year old in the pasture on his own. I got brave now and thought, lets make my life more simple and put him in with the rest. I was cautious about this, as mom hasn't particularely liked her 3 year old since he came back from training. But thought it was worth a try. The pasture is big, safe and lots of room to run. He is not very brave, so I knew he would stay clear if she wanted to kill him. In he came prancing right over to mom (also his mom) but she wanted nothing to do with him, kicked, squeeled and started eating again. Then he noticed the foal, went over to him, they both mouthed at each other, and then the play started. They ran around between the trees, bucking and playing for about 1/2 hour. It was priceless. Mom was a little protective at first and then she gave up and let them go. After about an hour, I resumed to my regular chores...All 4 in the pasture, paired off - Old gelding & mom - baby & 3 year old. Last night when I brought them in, baby was tuckered. He ate his grain and lay down before I left the barn. Very behaved might I add! Funny how no matter how hard you try, it is much easier to let the older horses do the training This morning, when put out in pasture, no issues. Again, paired off with each other. So thank you to all for the great advice. I think there is a little angel hidden behind those horns yet! Shawna |
Member: Banthony |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 4:53 pm: Shawna,Great to hear how things turned out. We so often forget that horses are herd animals. Our very spoiled 3 mo. old filly has been so much better behaved now that she has her yearling half sister to play with. It is very touching seeing them hang around each other obviously enjoying each other's company and very much acting like sisters. Also, very touching the other morning to see mom and yearling standing guard as the baby slept at their feet. |
Member: Dres |
Posted on Wednesday, Jul 19, 2006 - 5:51 pm: Shawna great news.. I am in a situation this time around with a weanling and how / where am i going to wean him.. I usually put the baby in with one of my younger / yearling to 2 year olds,,,(( I only breed one mare a year )) but this year i hve no real young ones & all my horses wear shoes.. I am deathly afraid of that one perfect kick to ruin a career .. My gelding sounds about like yours.. He would be fine with Mom but am afraid he would play to hard and throw out a misplaced hoof... This is the challenging part about breeding one a year..Good news on how your herd developed.. On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. |
Member: Christel |
Posted on Thursday, Jul 20, 2006 - 10:01 am: Shawna, great news. It sounds like he is quickly learning his place in the pecking order.Sometimes it is scary to let horses be horses, but there are times we must- glad you had the courage to allow that and it all worked out so well. Chris |