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Discussion on Youngster afraid to go alone | |
Author | Message |
Member: Dakotab |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 3:22 pm: Someone help me stop and argument with my husband, please. We have a youngster who does not want to go out on the trail alone. My husband feels he should be made to go and tries to take him out and has a fight on his hands every time.I rode him again today with another horse and have no problem. I make him lead, and if he does not want to go into the woods first. and after a bit of coaxing he still acts afraid I let the other horse lead. He will follow, and then I will ask him to lead again. Some times he will balk at leading if we are stepping into a dark area and I will keep coaxing. Sometimes he will go, and I pat and praise him. Sometimes he want another to go first. How should I handle this? I feel he trusts me, because we work together on his fears. Am I wrong or right? Hilma |
Member: Corinne |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 3:58 pm: Hilma,Ask you husband if being taught through fear and intimidation works for people? I would gather he would think not. Then ask him to remember that the horse is a prey animal and teaching him in manner that just enables his flight or fright instinct will just make him more fearful than if he has a confident herd leader to show him the way....which is what you are doing playing follow the leader. When Demetrius and I were learning to jump we followed the leader and it worked fabulously and at our first schooling show when he wouldn't go in the dressage arena because the chain links that made up the arena scared him we were ponied in and were then able to complete our test. Instinctively, your horse believes that leader won't take him into danger and will keep an eye out for prey so he will eventually relax., which is essentially how a herd operates. The herd leader protects the others. With your method of training hopefully he will feel that way about you soon, allowing you to take position of herd leader. I say not for the sake of wrong or right, and I am by no means a horse trainer, but your idea of training seems to be what might logically work in this situation for this youngster. Good Luck! |
Member: Hwood |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 4:52 pm: Well . . . I guess it depends on what your priorities are with this horse. I always take horses out alone, whether they want to go or not, when I first work with them. It gives me a chance to see what they are capable of doing, and helps show up the places that need work. I also ride with other horses because it is important that my horse knows how to follow, lead, keep the pace I ask of him when the other horse falls behind or moves ahead at a faster gait . . . I really do think that a horse needs to know how to go out alone . . . and as Corinne has stated, having confidence in the rider/handler is what helps a horse do that. You MAY be able to teach the horse to eventually go on trail alone without a fight, if you keep letting him go out with other horses . . . but I doubt it. The only way I see to get the horse to understand that there is no reason to be afraid of going out alone, is to have him do it . . . BUT . . . Going alone doesn't have to be for 2 hours . . . It can be something as simple as walking down the driveway and back with his rider . . . and then walking down the driveway and to the neighbor's house and back . . . and walking down the driveway and back (again) . . . and walking around the "Back 40" and back . . . or TROTTING out to the back 40 and walking back . . . and walking and trotting down the road for a mile and back . . . all over a period of time . . . and all with a confident, safe, patient, rider who has a sense of humor and isn't on any time schedule . . . and understands what to do if the horse decides to spook, sit, and spin when the neighbor's dog comes racing out . . . and understands what to do when the school bus comes rattling by . . .So . . . Yes, the horse needs to be taught to go alone, or I feel that you will always have a horse who is dependent upon another horse for trail rides . . . but HOW it is done and for how long is different for each horse. Was that diplomatic enough so that you and your husband can still smile at and talk to one another? |
Member: Corinne |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 5:22 pm: Great points Holly...I like your suggestions of one step at a time building trust then a few more steps and so on and so on until there is no fear.So I guess looking at it from that perspective Hilma you are both right....now you just have to figure out a way to achieve both goals while maintaining a safe and manageable environment for the horse and rider. I wish you all well! |
Member: Tuckern |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 5:58 pm: I think it also depends on what you want to do with the horse, do you want to be able to enjoy some one-on-one time, or is it okay to ONLY ride when someone can go with you?I battled this very issue with my mare. She was eight when I bought her 2 1/2 years ago and had already learned that if she didn't want to do something, all she had to do was attack (charge, rear, and strike), especially when I was working with her on the ground. When I was in the saddle, I always had to ride with someone, and be nose to tail with the other horse, otherwise she was not happy. I really had no control of her. Sure I could turn her, and stop her (sometimes), but she really wasn't listening to me. I rode like this for a year, because I couldn't figure out what to do with this horse. I couldn't make her see me as a leader. It finally dawned on me that this horse had absolutely no confidence, both in herself, and in me. She wasn't being mean, she was afraid. So, I started back at square one, ground work. I did alot of Clinton Anderson stuff. Once I became confident, and projected that confidence on her, it didn't take too long before she figured out that I knew what I was doing, that I wasn't going to back down, and that she could trust me. Once she made that connection, progress started. It was only after that, too, that I slowly started introducing her to the idea of riding on our own. At first, I had another horse along, and we would take different paths around a tree or a rock, and building up to taking different paths, and meeting up down the trail. Now, I do quite a bit of riding on my own, and my mare enjoys it as much as I do. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is to teach your horse that's it's okay to go out alone, build his confidence. Teach him about going into the woods or stepping into a dark area from the ground, before you try it from the saddle. And like Holly Wood said, lots and lots of back and forths, start at the trailer, go out a little, then come back, then repeat that several times, until he goes where YOU want him to go. Hope this helps, Nicole |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 5:59 pm: Hilma, does your husband remember those days when he was afraid of darkness?Does he remember his own fears in the woods? Were his fears any more logical than this young horse's fears? Did beating ever help with any of his fears? It was the lack of whip and kicking that allowed his curiosity to outgrow his fears. Had he been whipped and kicked in the process, his own desire to go in those woods wouldn't be so strong, I suppose. |
Member: Erika |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 6:14 pm: Hilma, just a thought, since this is a youngster, I assume it maybe isn't very long in it's training?I wonder if the "go forward" cue is as ingrained in the horse as it should be? Have you worked in a controlled area that the horse is comfortable in to the point that it understands clearly and unequivocably that leg means forward? It needs to be almost second nature for the horse to go with the leg cue in order for it to be effective when the horse is worried or distracted. Just a thought. Erika |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 7:58 pm: The easiest thing to teach a horse is to follow something. The easiest thing to follow is a person on foot, walking 4-5 meters ahead. Don't teach him to trust and follow horses, teach him to trust and follow people.From the first leading lesson, I teach the horse to follow that leading person. Whoa means whoa for all three of us, go means go for all three of us etc. The horse has no problem whatsoever understanding and accepting this immediately. No pulling, no tickling with a whip, no nothing. It is easy, it is natural, it is fun. Once the group idea and focus on the leading person is established, and I wouldn't expect it to take more than two-three sessions, we throw everything at him. A walk through town, swimming etc, in one single go. The idea is to shock him. Once he has learned basic following, the more alien the environment you expose him to the more he will cling to his handler and the leading person. A person leading makes, first of all, your group of two bigger. Second, it makes your cues easier to understand, as, of course, you time them with what the leader is doing. And last but not least, it enforces the idea that forward is always the way out. Two or three walks through a town or other scary, noisy environment is all it takes. You then remove the leading person and the horse will trust you forward through absolutely everything. You are his group now. His trust in you will continue under saddle. All you have to do is talk to him so that he remembers you're there and ask him to move on. If you want to extend this lesson under saddle, a bicycle is better than another horse. Again, another horse he will trust, we want him to trust and follow people. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Friday, Aug 18, 2006 - 8:50 pm: read this post it might help. It helped me. |
Member: Lilo |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 9:24 am: Christos,I love your approach. I have never done it, but often had to get off my mare to lead her through water etc. - sometimes with disastrous results (when she jumps a ditch, she'll get too close and bump into you). Therefore I generally feel safer on top of the horse. However, using two people on the ground may give more control. I also found to my amusement that this same mare would follow my friend's little terriers into water. KT - your reference leads right back to this discussion - is that what you intended? Lilo |
Member: Dakotab |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 12:33 pm: As usual everyones advise is great and I appreciate all of it.My son wants to bond with this horse.So I have had him do what Christo advises, and walk him in the woods behind the outdoor arena. He was fine for a while, but when Scott traveled a little to far from the farm Gambler gave him trouble he was rearing and trying to turn back to the farm instead of going on with Scott. When they came back, I took him for a walked him on the road, he listen pretty well, but tried to turn a few times. I just whoa'd him and started again. When he was listening well, I turned him and walked him back to the farm. I always try to end on a good note. A couple of cars past us and he was fine with that. We are not really near a town to walk him in a lot of traffic. But the bicycle idea is great. I will certainly try it again with both of us walking him also. I did mention to my husband, if a child was afraid to go into a dark closet would you make him go alone into it, no! you would go first, and let him know it was ok. That is why I felt a another horse with him and then changing positions on the trail would help. If he was afraid, let him go behind the other horse to boost his confidence. I guess I am just not too sure how far to push him to be independent. He is not a baby, he just turned 5. But when I bought him at 2 yrs 9 mo. he was under saddle for about 6 mo. I broke my arm and because of complications he sat for one year. I could not even do ground work with him. This is the same horse I talked to Christo about,if maybe it was a bit problem. I still have not found a trainer to work with him. I am a timid rider( I think because of breaking my arm), but he has been really good when I take him out, even if he refuses, he does nothing stupid, he just plants his feet. But Scott and my husband have tugging matches with him. And it makes me uncomfortable. Because I ride him with such a loose rein. And when I do take up contact it isn't much. I also praise him continuously when I ride, he flexes his neck back to the side for me to pet his face and poll area when we ride. Like he is looking for assurance. |
Member: Dakotab |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 12:44 pm: ErikaWe have been working with him in the outdoor arena. But he hates the arena. We have only had one horse that didn't mind arena work. I guess trail horse would rather be on the trails. Not sure how to get them to chill out in the arena. I know doing it all the time does not seem to help. We even do the ground work in the arena (Which does not seem as bad). |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 4:32 pm: No I guess I put the wrong link in DuhKatrina |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 4:40 pm: https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/132.htmlIts the 6th post down Advise on calming extremily nervous horse I have to say the thing that did work the most is doing what Christos says. I actually went out for hours at a time just leading him. It was very rewarding for both of us. We truly bonded. Plus I got super fit. Now he will follow me anywhere. Katrina |
Member: Leilani |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 12:24 am: Yee Haw, I am not a pupule wahine (crazy female). I taught my young mare to go out on the trails by herself (mac nuts trees, etc.), by leading her as Christos posted. I was soo very tired by the end, but she was sooo very relaxed.My friend's horse, an 8 yo gelding, would not go through the gate leaving her property (granted it was on concrete, not my favorite) without her dismounting. He has always loved the way I say his name in a sing-song voice, so I would get off my mare, lead her, singing "Mr. Polu" and he had no problem following me. Anytime we have problems with him refusing (not often), I return to the song. Funny creatures; I love them so. Leilani |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 5:28 am: I think my description of establishing a herd instinct with humans is not clear in the previous post.I mean leading the horse behind another person walking in front of you. This makes leading very easy for the horse, as he has a visual example of what is required of him. It is very natural, as horses really enjoy following a group they trust. Especially if following this group leads them to carrots, other horses, pleasant grooming, grazing around etc Once he has made up his mind that following people is fun, easy and always leads to good things, we expose him to a storm of stimuli. There he is allowed to act up a bit. He can spook, he can rear, he can do whatever except running away. We don't reprimand him, we don't want to scare him or make a big deal out of things. We only ask gently that he follows the person in front of us, that he keeps moving forward. The idea to instil is "hey, nothing really touches me when I hang around these guys". If our first leading sessions were successful, ie he likes being with us and he follows willingly, he should have no problem sticking with us and follow our group when spooky things happen. The person in front is very important, as it "pulls" the horse forward and makes the idea of obeying your forward cue a lot more appealing. Yes, you can do it all alone, but it takes ten times longer and that with a lot more confusion and frustration. Horses are creatures of habit. If he gets used to the idea that staying with you and cruising past scary things is safe and comfortable, he'll stick with it for life. I now have a 2yo colt who has gone waaay over the other end, ie he is looking forward to scary trips. He'll pull to stick his nose into anything he hasn't seen before, including open car windows (we've found a couple of friends hiding in there), open shops (friends hide in there too), other animals (will you get me one of these, dad?), strangers (loves to be petted), noisy funny looking machinery (may be it's pumping water or oats). His favourite is strolling through the open market, with all these people to pet him and all these things to sniff at. Party animal! |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 7:13 am: What you say is so true Christos. My once scaredy cat can walk through the streets have people cutting lawns hedge trimmers coloured flags you name it. He also loves the children running out of the houses to come and say hello. And he as you said loves to investigate everything. I laugh as he is so nosy. |
Member: Kthorse |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 7:21 am: One other thing. With things that move I have found following them works. It makes the horse think they are the boss that they can actually make that thing go away. It really makes them brave.Katrina |
Member: Lilo |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 9:39 am: Katrina - you are right. A friend of mine taught me to turn my horse and ride at barking dogs if they come at you (protecting their home, of course). The dog quickly loses it's courage if you ride straight at it, and the horse feels in control when the dog backs up.Lilo |
Member: Lynnea |
Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 9:02 pm: I spent a lot of time doing what was suggested above with my mare who wouldn't venture out the driveway by herself. We took baby steps for months........down the driveway...then down the driveway to the horse trailer...around the horse trailer to the corner of the property. And so on until I was taking her all around the neighborhood by herself. Something I really didn't think would happen. She was 12 years old and very set in her ways. However, what I really wanted to say is that I was the ONLY one who worked with her..on confidence and trust and I know if someone else was also...especially two other people..working with her she would have been extremely confused and I don't believe would have accomplished what she did. I am a big believer in horses needed to overcome fears by bonding with trust to a person willing to be consistent and patient (Patience being a huge key)and working in the same manner each time in asking for what they want. I would be concerned confusion is the only thing my horse was learning. |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 8:59 am: First you need to determine if it is fear or stubbornness. It is important to know the "why" as I would handle each situation differently.I just spent the weekend on a horse who has been on several trail rides with a group, and actually prefers to be the leader .. gets a little impatient as a follower and wants to catch up. Second is as bad as last to this horse. This weekend, we were heading out alone, and she absolutely refused to go any direction that was away from the rest of the horses. Each time she tried to turn back, we worked circles in each direction, always headed in my direction at the end, basically making her work when she refused to go ahead. I would then ask for forward again with my normal cues to include a final whack on the rump, which she would totally ignore. We actually sat pretty much motionless in one spot for about 10 minutes, which was also good because this horse normally hates to stand still. Bottom line, after about a half hour, she headed out down the trail and was perfect the rest of the day. When we got back to the pasture area, I turned away again and asked her to head out, which she did with no problem. I then dismounted, praised, and led her back in to the pasture. To handle stubbornness, I am patient but firm, and every bit as stubborn as the horse. I have spent many hours overall all on horses just setting there waiting for one of us to give in. If you let the horse prevail, you will have much work ahead of you. In the case of the horse fearing the situation, I have a different approach. I simply try to keep the horse facing the situation without applying forward cues, but turning back each time the horse tries to turn away, then relaxing again. I use this method when learning to cross creeks, tarps, approaching vehicles, etc. The key is to keep the horse facing the obstacle and realizing that nothing bad happened and building the confidence to go on their own. It seems that eventually, the horses curiosity takes over and they get braver and braver. I have been out many times on green horses with people who try to force the issue. If they are able to get it done, the horse is totally upset and excited and has just confirmed his fears. The funny thing is, it usually takes less time to let the horse figure it out on their own. I have also been told by a lot of the old school riders, that you have to make that horse cross the creek. I have no problem getting off and leading across a few times, all the while hearing that I am doing the wrong thing, and that the horse is beating me. Guess I'm just stupid cause I thought the goal was to get the horse to cross the creek. I can usually then mount back up and cross the creek several times while waiting on my riding partner to join me, sweating and cussing. Main thing IMO is to learn to recognize fear and stubborness, and have a planned approach to each. DT |
Member: Dakotab |
Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 3:28 pm: ChristoWe lead him last night, My son took the lead rope and I walked ahead, and we headed into the woods. He was great when we come out into the opening at the power lines and then through the field and away from the barn. At the part of the woods he refuses under saddle to go into. He walked in fine. I then stepped behind him and let im take the lead and again he was fine. Then I took a tumble in a hole, my pride was shot ! Be we finished the walk just fine. Dennis I rode him this morning he was fine. I let him follow and lead. We were about a half and hour out and were going down and old logging road. He stopped dead and just stood there. I kicked him several times and I felt his feet were glued to the ground. He looked back twice, but did not try to turn around. The other girl broke me off a small branch with leaves on it (so you know how wimpy the branch was.) I basically feathered his butt and he started walking again and that was as much trouble as he gave me. He did try to stop close to the farm but with a couple of kicks that was that. I guess I will take a crop next time. Thank you everyone, I think he is doing much better. We will tell more when My son and husband try to ride him, to see if its a gender thing. |
Member: Maggienm |
Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 9:37 am: Dennis, I started doing exactly the same thing as a teenager. If the horse wouldn't cross I got off led across a few times got back on, rode across no issue.Later I found out I had been doing it 'wrong', I still do it wrong. |
Member: Dtranch |
Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 2:31 pm: Lori .. ain't it amazing.Please don't let all the experts know. DT |