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HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Calming the Nervous or Excited Horse » |
Discussion on Calming Beads | |
Author | Message |
Member: Msmaidn |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm: I've read that B-12 will make a horse more nervous and excitable ("hot"). Is this true? I have a 1/2 Arabian/1/2 TB mare in very good health and spirit. Should I not give this to her. I thought B-12 was a calming vitamin. Your help, as always, is appreciated! |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Sunday, Apr 10, 2005 - 5:53 pm: Patti,Without being a vet, I think I can still tell you this: any vitamin is just a vitamin. If you overdose it, nobody can predict the exact results. The same, I believe, goes for any substance. I have seen horses become very funny with an excess supplementation of electrolytes. Jumping imaginary obstacles in perfect form, mounting hayballs as if they were the sexiest mare, acting as if they've never seen you before and other such nonsense. So, I believe, supplementation only applies in order to correct a known, documented deficiency. Experimentation may not only fail to correct what you suppose it should. It may create an imbalance and problems where there weren't any in the first place. So, my personal view is that if it ain't broke you should not fix it. Christos |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 7:17 am: Hello PattiDR,B-12 has traditionally been thought to be a calming vitamin and frequently found in calming pastes. I think it is nonsense. Whether you should supplement B vitamins depends on the quality of your forages. For more see, Care for Horses » Nutrition » Vitamins an Overview. I suspect however your concern is behavior and not nutrition. If you are having a behavorial problem, why not post that. Try and find a appropriate topic and start a new discussion. If you are having trouble with this see the "Before you post" ... link at the top. DrO |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 9:45 am: Hi all,I have a wonderful secret to calming nervous horses. It's called regular exercise, turnout and handling. (In hand work does wonders) Bravo to you Jane for expecting your three year old to have energy. Ellar |
Member: Chohler |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 2:27 pm: Yes Ella!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was once told my horse was to much of a handfull to shoe and that he needed to be sedated. I couldn't understand this my horse is lazy and if I could shoe he would let me. So I observed and decided he was getting fed his energy from the farrier. 15 minutes of in hand, Wella.......horse had shoes. It wasn't that the horse didn't want to hold still my farrier was uptight because there is a local stigma with mustangs. He expected my horse to put up a fuss so he did. Sorry I strayed from the post sorta. |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 3:23 pm: Ella, you are on to something! Time, patience, work...all are calming. My stallions, and some of the mares,would be bouncing off the walls if they didn't get out at least every other day for some work, and the more the better in the case of the stallions.Also, the post about horses picking up on the handler/rider's nervousness in so "right on." Haven't you noticed on show days, or days when everything is "going wrong" your horses are much worse behaved than when puttering around at home? The are like big mirrors. I've found they reflect what ever you're feeling, reflect it back to you, which increases your nervousness, reflects back to the horse, horse is even more nervous....a vicious circle. If the bead work, imo they'd be better off put into the rider! |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 3:31 pm: Had to jump in on this, Yes, Dr. O the skeptic. Its getting so I know your response before the answer hits the discussion. That's ok, you probably know I will be the devils advocate.Hey, I have a huge question though, if Tryptophane is on Dr O's list and it is hocus pocus, why does the AHSA put it on the forbidden substance list?????? I do not use calming stuff but I have learned to not make judgement till I do. I guess acupuncture doesn't make the list of possible remedies either. Those darn foreign modalities have been used for thousands of years but what do they know. Food for thought - have a good one all. |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Monday, Apr 11, 2005 - 6:57 pm: Hmmm, knowing what I think, perhaps it is a sign you are developing good sense Debbie. Many of the substances on the forbidden list are there because they interfere with testing of drugs considered a problem. Here is a report just this month on tryptophan and exercise:J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2005 Apr;89(3-6):140-5. Metabolic responses to oral tryptophan supplementation before exercise in horses. Vervuert I, Coenen M, Watermulder E. Institute for Animal Nutrition, University of Veterinary Medicine Hannover, Foundation, Bischofsholer, Hannover, Germany. Summary This study was conducted to evaluate the effects of oral tryptophan (Trp) supplementation on exercise capacity and metabolic responses in horses. Although experimental plasma Trp levels were seven times higher than the control levels, Trp supplementation had no effect on exercise performance and metabolic responses to draught load exercise. The fact that it has been done a long time is no proof of efficacy, bleeding was around several thousands of years and may have contributed to the death of many thousands of individuals yet was practised well into the 18th century. But if you would like to see some positive feedback on acupuncture see the article on lower back pain, we use it in our practice. DrO |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 8:00 am: I tried B12 and tryptophan on an excitable horse and they had no effect whatsoever. Of course this is an entirely anecdotal report and not to be confused with science!Imogen |
Member: Mrose |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:20 am: If B12 is supposed to be calming in horses, why do they give B12 shots to humans who feel tired and run-down? |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:55 am: Hi all,I have a secret for calming horses too. It's called regular exercise, turnout and handling (a lot of in-hand work does wonders). So often people will forget one of these things and then complain that their horse is hyper. Imagine a 5 or 6 year old child shut in a stall and then expected to come out and perform in the classroom! Good for you MJane for realizing that a 3 year old should have some energy! Ella |
Member: Miamoo |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:58 am: Tried to post a message twice to this post. It is not showing up on my computer but I recieved other responses to this post on my email. If you people are seeing my messages, sorry it has come through twice.Ella§ |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 11:16 am: Ella, your computer is not refreshing the page following posting. If you post and you don't see your posting, try hitting the reload button.DrO |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 1:07 pm: Dr OI applaud your knowledge and The Horseman's Advisor, I respect you but I am sure that makes no difference to you. I do think that many people on this site tip-toe around you as you don't feel any qualms about shutting someone down and sometimes with quite a bit of sarcasm. As you know there are as many opionions as there are vets sometimes. This post aside, thryoid is a perfect example I know excellent vets who think hypothyroidism does not exist in horses and other who are excellent vets who think it does. I don't know enough one way or another but I respect their differences. But thyroid is another discussion. My question was why is tryptophane illegal? I Know there are masking drugs, is tryptophane one of them? It was a simple question. I don't even use it and never have. I am not argumentative but I don't feel you know me well enough to assume anything about me including how sensible I am. What is sensible in your opinion? Someone who agrees with you all the time? I think if you contacted any of my veterinarians you would get a positive report, am I more informed than the average ? maybe, I ask questions but I do what my vets tell me, thats why I pay for their advice. But in the same practice I may get conflicting opinions, thats ok, I like the fact that they can be on the same page but still be individuals and so can I. I think I have treated everyone, including you, with respect, not reverence, but respect, but if I offended you in some way I do apologize. I have enjoyed the posts and give and take as I can. Good day. Debbie |
Member: Christos |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 2:51 pm: Hi, all,I just checked the label on the empty box of an ineffective calming product I had used two years ago. L-tryptophan was the supposedly calming ingredient (along with B1). I was placing a bulky order at the time and thought to give this thing a try, once I was training a very hot horse. Mind you, not only it did not help at all, but I think it made things worse! After three days of "treating" with this stuff, this mare was so hot that she reared straight up while I was swinging my leg over her back to get in the saddle. Please note that I did not bump her with my toe, did not touch her rump and nothing spooked her. She had never done this before and never did again. The rest of the ride was mostly hopping on all four, which was also too much even for her. On the second day, still on this stuff, we did jump everything that could be jumped on the way home. Inadvertently so, as she cut a straight line back to her box. Now this hadn't happened before either and never happened again. Coincidence? Perhaps. But just in case, I did throw the stuff down the drain. Christos |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Tuesday, Apr 12, 2005 - 10:51 pm: I apologize Debbie, I guess my weak attempt at humor seemed sarcastic. However if you want to be the Devil's Advocate, you need to get a thicker skin. I have a single purpose and that is to provide horse folk’s with accurate information, as accurate as my experience and scientific reporting can make it. This is not based in a hubris but just the opposite, it recognizes how fallable we can be and the importance of research to support our observations. For those who wish to present heresay as fact, they should be prepared to meet the objective (as I can make it) information available on the subject.Concerning your question about AHSA (now the United States Equestrian Federation or USEF) and tryptophan, I have never seen anywhere that they publish their reasons for a substance to be on their Forbidden List and in fact a substance does not have to be on a list to be forbidden. The rules state: Any product is forbidden if it contains an ingredient that is a forbidden substance, or is a drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony as a stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or might interfere with drug testing procedures. That said they do publish a list of commonly occuring forbidden substances in their “Recommendations” document which many call the “forbidden list” and in 2005 tryptophan is not on that list. There may be a longer list somewhere (surely there is) but I have not seen it published. If you can find it I will be glad to query them on why it is there. I know of no research that suggests it might be there for any reason other than "interference". DrO |
Member: Imogen |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 3:34 am: Deb, I've been a member of this board a long time now and Dr O has practised both his advice and sense of humour on me many times - I have never been offended and in fact have considered recommending him for fastrack sainthood on occasion. Only joking.I think part of giving this kind of advice is sometimes to use humour to defuse unnecessary anxiety? The answer about banning ineffective substances which may also mask analysis was given early in the thread. Best wishes Imogen |
Moderator: DrO |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 7:19 am: Horses are easy but people can be tough, thanks for the support Imogen. Maybe with a bit more practice I can get that humor thing working.We have 2 wonderful people on the public radio over here, Joe and Terry Graedon (sp?), who have a show called The People's Pharmacy. It comes on live very early Sat morning and I try to catch it whenever possible. They take phone calls where people express opinions and ask questions on anything pharmocological. The thing that makes them so wonderful is they make anyone, no matter how strange or wild the claim, feel at home and welcome while carefully explaining there is no support or occasionally why their suggestion may be dangerous. For those with the Sat morn public radio habit I think I am more like Tom Mariatzzi (sp?)that would be "Click" of "Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers". My wife says I am kiddin myself and that I am just a "grumpy old man". As to sainthood goodness, you think I had a swollen head before.... DrO |
Member: Deggert |
Posted on Wednesday, Apr 13, 2005 - 12:53 pm: Thanks Dr O and ImogenThe hard part about e-mail is the part where people cannot see or hear our intonations and they therefore, have to assume how we meant it. Believe me, even in person sometimes I can be taken as too straight forward and offend someone when I had no clue, so I know how that is. I couldn't find it on the USEF website either, although I have heard trytophane will test. Who knows, I shouldn't be riled about it anyway since I agree with most that training and feeding and trust is what helps horses settle. I like the differnce of opinions I get on this site and from many other my associations. Thanks again, Debbie ps. One day when we need some laughs, I will tell you all about the equine psychics out here!!!! |